7,183 posts
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Post by Jon on May 13, 2022 11:25:58 GMT
Let's hoping the bottle was just signed by Boris and not drunk by Boris....
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Post by Jan on May 13, 2022 15:23:11 GMT
Not really, just a feeble joke by a local Conservative fundraiser. If you think it’s vile beyond words what do you have left say about some of the Russian actions in Ukraine ? |
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Post by Jan on May 13, 2022 15:28:16 GMT
We take to the streets on May 5th, then vote for councillors other than Tories. Strange feeling in my stomach since reading this post. Like Mark Thomas' elderly crusty rambler, I've been to the cupboard to make sure my protest boots are still there. 'Never thought I would have to wear you in anger again'. Feels like Grosvenor Square again. Inner city riots of the 1980's. Feels like the miners strike and Wapping all over. Poll tax demonstrations and Blairs anti-war demonstrations. Not a notably successful list of protests - did any of them achieve their aim ? |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 15:34:48 GMT
Oliver Dowden is the Tory Party Chairman and former Culture Secretary - the chap who looks like Matthew Cottle. I get what you say about the use of vile Jan, it is all in a context. Like some people cannot pay bills, Ukraine is having the hell bombed out of it but some people choose to protest at Oil Depots etc. It is totally how we view things.
If you wanted a very cynical view of Partygate and Currygate is it the harder Right Wing of the Tory Party pushing their agenda through. Boris was useful be win an election but is now a liability and must go. Funny who the Angela Rayner/Basic Instinct story comes out and then Kier has this hanging over him. Are the Tory media trying to trash Angela and put people in mind that she could be in power as it is hard to get stuff on Starmer and then they get this on Starmer who dsaid he would resign if fined. Angela has said likewise too but it then creates a battle for control of the Labour Party again. The Tories might ousr Boris but a bit like the Monarchy they would do whatever is needed to remain in power and fall behind aa new leader. Whilst Labour may have a moral arguement about which way to go and some Labour activists would rather follow theor principles than be in power!
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Post by Jan on May 13, 2022 15:55:25 GMT
Oliver Dowden is the Tory Party Chairman and former Culture Secretary - the chap who looks like Matthew Cottle. I get what you say about the use of vile Jan, it is all in a context. Like some people cannot pay bills, Ukraine is having the hell bombed out of it but some people choose to protest at Oil Depots etc. It is totally how we view things. If you wanted a very cynical view of Partygate and Currygate is it the harder Right Wing of the Tory Party pushing their agenda through. Boris was useful be win an election but is now a liability and must go. Funny who the Angela Rayner/Basic Instinct story comes out and then Kier has this hanging over him. Are the Tory media trying to trash Angela and put people in mind that she could be in power as it is hard to get stuff on Starmer and then they get this on Starmer who dsaid he would resign if fined. Angela has said likewise too but it then creates a battle for control of the Labour Party again. The Tories might ousr Boris but a bit like the Monarchy they would do whatever is needed to remain in power and fall behind aa new leader. Whilst Labour may have a moral arguement about which way to go and some Labour activists would rather follow theor principles than be in power! I know who Oliver Dowden is but that is entirely irrelevant - he donated the bottle months ago and didn’t write the description on the card. |
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Post by Jan on May 13, 2022 15:59:10 GMT
God I loathe him; but I loathed him already. This only makes a difference if it moves the needle amongst Tory voters. This. Imagine having voted for him? Imagine having voted for the alternative - a bunch of anti-Semitic Putin apologists advising a leader who has now had the Labour whip removed. Just to clarify, I tend to the view that Boris, the head of the Civil Service, and every single civil servant and SPAD who received a FPN should resign or be fired. Given Starmer’s posturing over the matter when he suggested a police investigation was enough to justify Boris resigning I think he should resign too. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2022 17:35:21 GMT
I'd also like to know why police so eager to break up Lockdown meet ups didn't act in such a manner when they were guarding Boris or Kier?
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2,339 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 14, 2022 16:43:27 GMT
This. Imagine having voted for him? Imagine having voted for the alternative - a bunch of anti-Semitic Putin apologists advising a leader who has now had the Labour whip removed. Just to clarify, I tend to the view that Boris, the head of the Civil Service, and every single civil servant and SPAD who received a FPN should resign or be fired. Given Starmer’s posturing over the matter when he suggested a police investigation was enough to justify Boris resigning I think he should resign too. Ouch, I felt I touched a nerve there. I feel your pain |
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Post by olliebean on May 14, 2022 21:32:49 GMT
This. Imagine having voted for him? Imagine having voted for the alternative - a bunch of anti-Semitic Putin apologists advising a leader who has now had the Labour whip removed. Corbyn was by no means perfect, but Anti-Semitism in the party reduced under his leadership, and the Tories are way more compromised wrt Russia than Corbyn ever was. You appear to have fallen, like many others, for a very successful smear campaign. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2022 12:23:24 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn mobilised that 40% vote in 2017 and did seem to appeal to the younger voters but would he ever have been electable to that floating 20% of voters which possibly switch amongst the main 3 UK wide parties and decide most elections?
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on May 15, 2022 16:31:27 GMT
Imagine having voted for the alternative - a bunch of anti-Semitic Putin apologists advising a leader who has now had the Labour whip removed. Corbyn was by no means perfect, but Anti-Semitism in the party reduced under his leadership, and the Tories are way more compromised wrt Russia than Corbyn ever was. You appear to have fallen, like many others, for a very successful smear campaign. That’s not what Jewish members of the party said, re: Corbyn. Like it or not, he just was not a good leader - he didn’t bring Labour together. Which is not terribly surprising - opposition is his natural stance; when Labour were in actually in power he opposed his own party’s government! Labour have got to let Corbyn’s failed leadership go and move on if they ever want to get the Tories out. And lord knows getting this bunch of corrupt incompetents out of government is really important! |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 16, 2022 17:32:04 GMT
Corbyn was by no means perfect, but Anti-Semitism in the party reduced under his leadership, and the Tories are way more compromised wrt Russia than Corbyn ever was. You appear to have fallen, like many others, for a very successful smear campaign. That’s not what Jewish members of the party said, re: Corbyn. Like it or not, he just was not a good leader - he didn’t bring Labour together. Which is not terribly surprising - opposition is his natural stance; when Labour were in actually in power he opposed his own party’s government! Labour have got to let Corbyn’s failed leadership go and move on if they ever want to get the Tories out. And lord knows getting this bunch of corrupt incompetents out of government is really important! But as Olliebean said, factually true. But Corbyn was voting against War in Iraq, trident, benefit cuts, ID cards, tuition fees, Terrorism Act etc He was right to vote against the Blair/Brown governments. Does your statement only work if the list of policies he voted against you didn't agree with are mentioned? I was told 75% of the time he voted against the Labour whip was during the Blair/Brown government. Quite telling that with Corbyn an MP under eight years of a Thatcher administration. Presumably figure slightly skewed by Thatchers huge majorities and maybe not as many whipped votes |
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Post by vdcni on May 16, 2022 17:40:04 GMT
Yeah you can make the case that despite the Anti-Semitism the Tories are way more racist overall (which they don't get picked up on in the same way as it's just assumed they will be) and indeed more compromised by their association with Russia than Labour but you can't play down Corbyn's significant flaws. I note that while they are pressuring Wimbledon to ban Russian players they aren't handing back the big sums of money they received from Putin's associates or revealing what actually happened with Lebvedev.
Was Corbyn a better option than Johnson - absolutely, but still a concerning choice. But Corbyn's not relevant anymore no matter how many times the Tories try to use him as an attack line. Starmer and his cabinet may not be inspiring but compared to the Tories right now they look like giants.
I saw an interesting point on Twitter today, the ministers on the media rounds have been saying all these completely obvious and unhelpful things about the cost of living crisis - buy own brand food, work more hours, get a better paid job - because they don't have any actual policies to do anything about it. They've got nothing else to contribute.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 18:26:39 GMT
Corbyn is in the past but is the ideologistic battle for the Labour Party?
Actually Labour being out of power during the last couple of years is probably better for them. Like if they had won in 1992 and with Black Wednesday I could have seen Kinnock pannicking and the fallout not being good.
The Tories had a thumping majority form 1983 to 1992 so whichever way lobby door JC in his best polytechnic lecturers suit had walked didn't make any difference.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on May 16, 2022 20:35:41 GMT
The Tories had a thumping majority form 1983 to 1992 so whichever way lobby door JC in his best polytechnic lecturers suit had walked didn't make any difference. It didn’t, no, but that wasn’t really the point. Leadership as a quality requires the ability to persuade, to compromise with people when necessary to achieve your aims and cajole others into doing what you believe is the best for all. Blair and Brown may not have always had the best policies but they did have the ability to do that. Corbyn didn’t. He just doesn’t understand how to do it. Now many find that an admirable quality, but it made him a very poor leader of the opposition. I don’t know why his acolytes cannot acknowledge that he failed as a leader even of his own party. He certainly did not persuade otherwise-Conservative voters to switch to Labour - which is what he needed to do to win. Move on, guys. Look to the future - it’s the only way. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2022 12:56:41 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did.
The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go.
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2,339 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 18, 2022 12:02:46 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Doesn't have to be someone as 'old school left wing' as Corbyn. Still, as if the Labour Party are going to give even your Andy Burnham's of this world a go |
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Post by Jan on May 18, 2022 12:59:11 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ? |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 18, 2022 13:57:19 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ? Didn't Corbyn get the greatest percentage of young voters in any election? |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 18, 2022 19:16:16 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ? Not to mention his failings with Greater Manchester Police who he is responsible for when he feels like it. i passed him in the street the other week. Small. In every respect. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 10:50:47 GMT
Andy Burnham has had two cracks as being leader so after being rejected twice would he be able to run again. The likes of Dan Jarvis the Sheffield Mayor seems a better option, experienced MP, former soldier looks as if he has some gravitas. Also Sadiq Khan is the top elected Labour person in power and would follow Boris path from Mayor. But he seems quite happy running London so unless Labour were very likely to get back into power would he consider giving up such a high profile role.
David Miliband is still working in New York and has been out of Parliament for nearly a decade but could he be parachuted back in if they thought he was best man for the job or to a very senior position at least.
Wes Streeting has an impressive CV and came up from nothing. My only concern with him at the moment would be he had a serious health scare last year so maybe wait a few years to get time clear from that and also at under 40 has time on his side. Definite potential future leader though.
David Lammy when he was first elected as an MP I can remember reading and thinking he was a potential first black PM, youngest MP at the time, impressive guy been to Harvard, called to the bar at 22. But never made it to the cabinet for some reason in Blair/Brown era and only got a major shadow cabinet role again in recent years. Also Sadiq Khan got London Mayor spot ahead of him. But still not 50 yet, 20 plus years an MP so could yet have chance for one of the top cabinet jobs at least
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Post by Jon on May 19, 2022 12:09:36 GMT
Andy Burnham has had two cracks as being leader so after being rejected twice would he be able to run again. The likes of Dan Jarvis the Sheffield Mayor seems a better option, experienced MP, former soldier looks as if he has some gravitas. Also Sadiq Khan is the top elected Labour person in power and would follow Boris path from Mayor. But he seems quite happy running London so unless Labour were very likely to get back into power would he consider giving up such a high profile role. David Miliband is still working in New York and has been out of Parliament for nearly a decade but could he be parachuted back in if they thought he was best man for the job or to a very senior position at least. Wes Streeting has an impressive CV and came up from nothing. My only concern with him at the moment would be he had a serious health scare last year so maybe wait a few years to get time clear from that and also at under 40 has time on his side. Definite potential future leader though. David Lammy when he was first elected as an MP I can remember reading and thinking he was a potential first black PM, youngest MP at the time, impressive guy been to Harvard, called to the bar at 22. But never made it to the cabinet for some reason in Blair/Brown era and only got a major shadow cabinet role again in recent years. Also Sadiq Khan got London Mayor spot ahead of him. But still not 50 yet, 20 plus years an MP so could yet have chance for one of the top cabinet jobs at least I suspect unless they offer Sadiq a plum position in a future Labour Government then I think he'll stick to being Mayor of London when the next election comes around in 2024 since it's not term limited. That being said, I would imagine if he did intend to return to Parliament, I imagine Labour would go for Harriet Harman's Constituency since she's retiring at the next election. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 12:25:18 GMT
The next London majoral election will fall on the provisional date for next general election. Mr Khan could return as an MP and still be mayor as Boris did both in 2015/16 but he was not seeking reelection as mayor in 2016. You can be an MP and a Mayor as long as mayoral role doesn't include Police and Crime comissioner powers. Hence you have Dan Jarvis still an MP and mayor whilst Tracy Brabin had to give up her seat when she became an elected mayor as that role had PCC powers attached.
With Boris having an exit date as mayor he was able to return to the commons, Sadiq would have to decide one or the other really in 2024 and be pretty certain Labour would gain power and he'd be in line for a top job. The need for him to return to the commons would diminish after 2024 if Labour got in power as they would have people gaining ministerial experience. His biggest asset would be in 2024 when Labour would be short of people with ministerial experience and you'd have a guy who had run the capital for 8 years to use.
Personally I think someone should be mayor or an MP not both. But I agree HH's seat would be perfect for Sadiq to takeover.
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Post by Jon on May 19, 2022 12:45:23 GMT
Personally I think someone should be mayor or an MP not both. But I agree HH's seat would be perfect for Sadiq to takeover. It was either that or Margaret Hodge's seat and I suspect the latter's probably too north of the river for a South Londoner like Sadiq Khan! |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 16:06:12 GMT
If a Party wants someone back in Parliament enough they will always find them a safe seat. Harriet's or Dame Margaret's would both fit the bill.
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