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Post by vickyg on Apr 7, 2021 10:54:07 GMT
The absolute bitterness of some people who have suddenly realised that being part of society means following the law and occasionally having to do something you would prefer not to for the good of the whole...
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Post by sph on Apr 7, 2021 18:15:17 GMT
It isn't a couple more weeks, it is probably more like six months before those at the younger end of the spectrum have had two doses, so don't underplay what you are advocating. I presume you are in a group that has been or will be vaccinated, as otherwise I don't see how you could support restrictions by vaccination status alone until everyone has at least been offered two doses. Going to the cinema is not important. Going to the theatre is not important. Going to a concert is not important. I used to think this too. But then I stopped and thought about it. Going to the cinema is not a necessity to the customer. But it's a necessity for the people who depend on them for their income. Going to the pub or a restaurant is not a necessity but... it's a necessity for the many, many people in this country who depend on the hospitality industry to keep their rent paid and their kids fed. I'm not saying it was wrong to close these sectors, I'm just saying that it's short-sighted to assume that because they are "luxuries", they can be removed. Think how many pubs/restaurants there are in this country in even the tiniest village. That's a LOT of people finding themselves in very difficult circumstances. And follow the chain up: The suppliers who have to lay people off, the makers of produce that has nowhere to be sold. The businesses that just couldn't survive the last year. No they aren't a "necessity" in the traditional sense of the word, but their loss is felt greatly by those who genuinely need them to survive. Going to a concert is not important, sure, but what happened to all the people who worked in the venues? Ticketing? Local businesses who relied on the crowds for custom? I'm not against lockdowns, but I am always astounded by how brazenly people sweep the loss of these businesses under the rug, and what it means for the vast numbers of people affected. It's not about losing your "night out", it's about losing industries and saddling the country with a debt which surely cannot be paid. But... you know: "I'm alright Jack! Pull up the ladder!"
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Post by Mark on Apr 7, 2021 18:29:01 GMT
Where do you get six months from? Every adult is to be offered a vaccine by the end of July and then it’s a 12 week wait from there. By my calculations that’s not six months and as I said, only the very youngest of adults will be impacted. Going to the cinema is not important. Going to the theatre is not important. Going to a concert is not important. End of July is 3 months and 3 weeks away. Add another 3 month for second doses. Where are you not seeing the 6 months here? It's actually closer to 7. As for those things you deem not important, they are important to many many people, not least as mentioned above those who work in those industries and rely on them for their livlihoods.
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Post by talkingheads on Apr 7, 2021 18:32:15 GMT
It isn't a couple more weeks, it is probably more like six months before those at the younger end of the spectrum have had two doses, so don't underplay what you are advocating. I presume you are in a group that has been or will be vaccinated, as otherwise I don't see how you could support restrictions by vaccination status alone until everyone has at least been offered two doses. Going to the cinema is not important. Going to the theatre is not important. Going to a concert is not important. If people don't go to the cinema or theatre, they have to let staff go. They don't then spend money in the surrounding bars and restaurants, thus they have to cut staff or go out of business. This seems to be what the Government doesn't understand about supporting different sectors. It's a labyrinthine system of economics that connects businesses in a town centre. Going to concerts is not important? Tell that to the backstage crews who have had no support for the past year.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2021 20:05:05 GMT
Lots of interesting points!
First of all, doesn't seem there is any plan to base this just on vaccines. The 'covid status certification' would be vaccine, or positive test in last 6 months, or -ve test pre event (currently free under new scheme). So there is no concern that it would discriminate against those not yet offered vaccine.
I do agree with those who have said it is a small price to pay. As for theatre being essential? Well, it is essential to those who work in it, as has been said. And the benefits to mental health to some of those who see it - I think a year+ down the line, the time has come to have a more holistic view of health, so one could argue that it is almost essential.
I think the whole passport/certification thing also looks further down the line. I believe they are looking at ways to KEEP things open. So if new variants, or vaccines wearing off, or whatever else cause a new wave next Winter, then perhaps passports can act as a way to keep the industry open in a way that couldn't be done in the previous waves. And that is very important!
I also agree with the points that we have all made sacrifices and that we will all continue to make sacrifices for the greater good. It's why I have little/no sympathy with anti-vaxers. Totally failing to understand that the whole point of vaccination programmes is to protect populations, not individuals. It's something that needs to be done for society.
So yes, for many reasons I am reconciled with covid status certification.
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 7, 2021 20:47:18 GMT
I would welcome a vaccine passport with open arms, if it meant theatre can get back, people can go on holiday, which means people can go back to work, getting the economy back and we can all start enjoying life.
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Post by sph on Apr 7, 2021 21:34:27 GMT
Lots of interesting points! As for theatre being essential? Well, it is essential to those who work in it, as has been said. And the benefits to mental health to some of those who see it - I think a year+ down the line, the time has come to have a more holistic view of health, so one could argue that it is almost essential. I get the point, but how many of us rushed out to buy things from Debenhams or Topshop to stop them closing down to keep people employed? Do we hold theatre in some sort higher regard? The real argument is business is essential because it keeps people employed but as we all know, businesses come and go and that’s just how it is - and theatre is no exception. I think there's a difference between companies like Debenhams and Topshop dwindling to a close because they were losing their appeal, and entire sectors of society like hospitality being shut down overnight. Theatre wasn't a business that "came and went", it was a full industry which ejected it's entire workforce in a very short space of time leaving thousands scrambling for jobs and livelihoods all at the same time. I understand the point that sometimes shows close and people lose their jobs, but not "EVERY SINGLE SHOW ON THE PLANET AS OF TODAY".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 11:25:58 GMT
Very interesting that OAT has looked at the roadmap and concluded they should introduce social distancing for Carousel. Given this is a) outdoors and b) almost 6 weeks after the 21st June, doesn’t fill one with confidence for all the indoor non distanced stuff!
But I remain, as ever, highly hopeful with everything crossed.
Interesting times....
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Post by NeilVHughes on Apr 8, 2021 11:33:51 GMT
Similarly e-Mail from Regent’s Park Theatre today stating the Summer Season will be at 50% seating capacity.
If outdoor Theatres are reticent of opening at full capacity it is unlikely any indoor ones will open to full capacity in the near future.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 11:41:13 GMT
Similarly e-Mail from Regent’s Park Theatre today stating the Summer Season will be at 50% seating capacity. If outdoor Theatres are reticent of opening at full capacity it is unlikely any indoor ones will open to full capacity in the near future. Indeed. I’m taking this as a development that has very little June 21st confidence sadly.
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Post by sph on Apr 8, 2021 11:56:07 GMT
That's sad. Maybe they'll add more tickets and increase capacity during the run if audiences seems comfortable and easing of restrictions has gone well?
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Post by zahidf on Apr 8, 2021 12:55:14 GMT
That's sad. Maybe they'll add more tickets and increase capacity during the run if audiences seems comfortable and easing of restrictions has gone well? Yup, theyve said that they will change social distancing to full capacity if they can, and they reserve the right to sit people next to you in the future....
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Post by poster J on Apr 8, 2021 14:08:25 GMT
Similarly e-Mail from Regent’s Park Theatre today stating the Summer Season will be at 50% seating capacity. If outdoor Theatres are reticent of opening at full capacity it is unlikely any indoor ones will open to full capacity in the near future. Indeed. I’m taking this as a development that has very little June 21st confidence sadly. Or just that's it's more sensible to be cautious and ensure you can definitely open in some way that means you might be able to put more seats on sale later, or a decision that they think people are more likely to buy tickets if seats are socially-distanced. Neither of which mean that 21 June won't happen, they are just eminently sensible planning strategies that make commercial sense in the circumstances. And pretty much everyone is doing the same.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 17:31:45 GMT
Indeed. I’m taking this as a development that has very little June 21st confidence sadly. Or just that's it's more sensible to be cautious and ensure you can definitely open in some way that means you might be able to put more seats on sale later, or a decision that they think people are more likely to buy tickets if seats are socially-distanced. Neither of which mean that 21 June won't happen, they are just eminently sensible planning strategies that make commercial sense in the circumstances. And pretty much everyone is doing the same. That's a great point actually yes, maybe they are just playing it safe. And good they are happy to open socially distanced and take the financial hit rather than postponing again. I do wonder what the likes of Cinderella, Joseph, Poppins etc will do if distancing still in force. I really hope they open anyway, knowing that distancing will only be short term. I rather suspect however they'll get kicked further down the line. Which is daft as looking at availability currently, they could easily implement social distancing for the start of their runs, while confidence and demand builds up. Time will tell!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Apr 8, 2021 17:45:56 GMT
The Snooker World Championship final is a test event for full capacity indoor seated event.
Let's see how that pans out as a model for theatre
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Post by steve10086 on Apr 8, 2021 17:53:36 GMT
Or just that's it's more sensible to be cautious and ensure you can definitely open in some way that means you might be able to put more seats on sale later, or a decision that they think people are more likely to buy tickets if seats are socially-distanced. Neither of which mean that 21 June won't happen, they are just eminently sensible planning strategies that make commercial sense in the circumstances. And pretty much everyone is doing the same. That's a great point actually yes, maybe they are just playing it safe. And good they are happy to open socially distanced and take the financial hit rather than postponing again. I do wonder what the likes of Cinderella, Joseph, Poppins etc will do if distancing still in force. I really hope they open anyway, knowing that distancing will only be short term. I rather suspect will be toys out of pram time again though and they'll get kicked further down the line. Which is daft as looking at availability currently, they could easily implement social distancing for the start of their runs, while confidence and demand builds up. Time will tell! Postponing until they can go ahead without social distancing isn’t exactly “toys out of the pram time”. Bit insulting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 17:55:52 GMT
That's a great point actually yes, maybe they are just playing it safe. And good they are happy to open socially distanced and take the financial hit rather than postponing again. I do wonder what the likes of Cinderella, Joseph, Poppins etc will do if distancing still in force. I really hope they open anyway, knowing that distancing will only be short term. I rather suspect however they'll get kicked further down the line. Which is daft as looking at availability currently, they could easily implement social distancing for the start of their runs, while confidence and demand builds up. Time will tell! Postponing until they can go ahead without social distancing isn’t exactly “toys out of the pram time”. Bit insulting. #Amended
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Post by theatreian on Apr 8, 2021 21:19:59 GMT
The other issue with demand for seats will be there won't be sufficient to sustain the big shows at full capacity at the moment. Tourism will be way down as very few foreign tourists and domestic demand simply will not be enough to sustain the big shows at 8 shows a week.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2021 21:43:22 GMT
The other issue with demand for seats will be there won't be sufficient to sustain the big shows at full capacity at the moment. Tourism will be way down as very few foreign tourists and domestic demand simply will not be enough to sustain the big shows at 8 shows a week. I think you're spot on with this. Hence I think it would be a good idea for the big shows to consider opening at reduced capacity!
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Post by vickyg on Apr 9, 2021 9:00:29 GMT
Interesting discussion on 'The Week in Art' podcast today about vaccine passports that have been developed in Denmark and Israel. In Denmark you are eligible if you have been fully vaccinated, have had the virus between two and twelve weeks ago or have a negative test in the last 72 hours and you seem to need it to do anything non-essential. This seems reasonable to me and wouldn't exclude anyone because I'm assuming, being Denmark, that testing is free and readily available. Israel has a 'green pass' but museums are exempt from this so there are obviously much wider exemptions.
I don't know how I feel about the idea of passports. On one hand I really don't think segregation of any kind has ever proven helpful (although being really honest part of me would love to punish antivaxxers for abdicating their responsibilities) but on the other hand it's vital to protect those people who can't be vaccinated and the population as a whole. Vaccines are only properly effective if levels of virus in the population overall is low. If there were enough unvaccinated people that the virus was able to circulate at a higher level vaccinated people remain at risk. I was also reminded by my CEO at work yesterday (hospital) that we are tested for hepatitis B on appointment and if you don't have antibodies you are required to be vaccinated in order to work there. So there is definitely precedent for excluding unvaccinated people in certain circumstances.
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Post by Mark on Apr 9, 2021 9:48:20 GMT
Interesting discussion on 'The Week in Art' podcast today about vaccine passports that have been developed in Denmark and Israel. In Denmark you are eligible if you have been fully vaccinated, have had the virus between two and twelve weeks ago or have a negative test in the last 72 hours and you seem to need it to do anything non-essential. This seems reasonable to me and wouldn't exclude anyone because I'm assuming, being Denmark, that testing is free and readily available. Israel has a 'green pass' but museums are exempt from this so there are obviously much wider exemptions. I don't know how I feel about the idea of passports. On one hand I really don't think segregation of any kind has ever proven helpful (although being really honest part of me would love to punish antivaxxers for abdicating their responsibilities) but on the other hand it's vital to protect those people who can't be vaccinated and the population as a whole. Vaccines are only properly effective if levels of virus in the population overall is low. If there were enough unvaccinated people that the virus was able to circulate at a higher level vaccinated people remain at risk. I was also reminded by my CEO at work yesterday (hospital) that we are tested for hepatitis B on appointment and if you don't have antibodies you are required to be vaccinated in order to work there. So there is definitely precedent for excluding unvaccinated people in certain circumstances. Certainly makes sense, just wonder how they would use LFT at home for this purpose as it would be easy enough to self certify incorrect results if you wanted to.
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Post by baguette on Apr 13, 2021 11:07:55 GMT
Long interview in the Telegraph with National Theatre's Rufus Norris about the outlook post-COVID. www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/half-budget-musical-year-national-theatre-faces-future/ (£) Main points were summarised in Whats on Stage www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/national-new-programming-musical-year_53782.htmlUnsurprisingly, budgets have been slashed 'Hammered by months of closure and shaken to the core by some 550 job losses, the theatre is slashing its production budgets in half in an effort to balance the books (they won’t be doing shows in rep for a while either, for the same reason). The building will make the most of people, and the least of costly materials.' It's worth a read, but their plans for full seating are cautious 'The first show to open in the Olivier main-house in this new “period of distillation” will be Under Milk Wood, from June 16, ....... which will play in front of a maximum audience of 500 people per performance (in contrast to the Olivier’s new non-distanced capacity of 1,300), fits well in the round.' Meanwhile, in the Dorfman, the National’s studio theatre whose capacity has been reduced from 400 to 120, Norris is staging After Life. .....“A lot of people will be sitting next to empty seats, and that absence will have a poignancy to it. I think it will really resonate,” he says. The Lyttelton, the 900-seat proscenium-arch auditorium, remains dark – it being judged financially unfeasible to open under social-distancing rules.... There are two versions of a planned programme to the end of the year, one with social distancing, the other without. Norris says: “If there’s another lockdown that takes us into a whole other world of woe, but I would say there is an air of cautious optimism. If we do open in June, then with a fair wind, I hope we should be building out from there. I’d hope that by the end of the summer, we’re selling all of the Olivier’s 1,300 seats. I want all the auditoria full.” So does that sound like he thinks September is the start of full seating?
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Post by lynette on Apr 13, 2021 15:12:35 GMT
Sad it has taken a pandemic to close the Lyttleton, a theatre you cannot hear in from half way back and which has a stage so wide it literally suits nothing except Russian plays set in apartments with lots of iron windows.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Apr 13, 2021 15:22:15 GMT
Long interview in the Telegraph with National Theatre's Rufus Norris about the outlook post-COVID. www.telegraph.co.uk/theatre/what-to-see/half-budget-musical-year-national-theatre-faces-future/ (£) Main points were summarised in Whats on Stage www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/national-new-programming-musical-year_53782.htmlUnsurprisingly, budgets have been slashed 'Hammered by months of closure and shaken to the core by some 550 job losses, the theatre is slashing its production budgets in half in an effort to balance the books (they won’t be doing shows in rep for a while either, for the same reason). The building will make the most of people, and the least of costly materials.' It's worth a read, but their plans for full seating are cautious 'The first show to open in the Olivier main-house in this new “period of distillation” will be Under Milk Wood, from June 16, ....... which will play in front of a maximum audience of 500 people per performance (in contrast to the Olivier’s new non-distanced capacity of 1,300), fits well in the round.' Meanwhile, in the Dorfman, the National’s studio theatre whose capacity has been reduced from 400 to 120, Norris is staging After Life. .....“A lot of people will be sitting next to empty seats, and that absence will have a poignancy to it. I think it will really resonate,” he says. The Lyttelton, the 900-seat proscenium-arch auditorium, remains dark – it being judged financially unfeasible to open under social-distancing rules.... There are two versions of a planned programme to the end of the year, one with social distancing, the other without. Norris says: “If there’s another lockdown that takes us into a whole other world of woe, but I would say there is an air of cautious optimism. If we do open in June, then with a fair wind, I hope we should be building out from there. I’d hope that by the end of the summer, we’re selling all of the Olivier’s 1,300 seats. I want all the auditoria full.” So does that sound like he thinks September is the start of full seating? [br Strange to close the larger Lyttleton which you could cram more socially distanced punters into than the Dorfman
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Post by sph on Apr 13, 2021 15:40:26 GMT
I suspect that even though non-distanced seating is expected to be allowed from June 21st, many producers are going to err on the side of caution and hold off on full-capacity seating until later in the year.
I didn't go into Soho last night, but from what I've seen online there was something of a carnival atmosphere. Good to see, but it also brings out those who are again predicting the end of the world. I can see their point that the crowds could lead to a rise in cases, but at the same time we do have a vaccine and a population desperate to get out of the house again.
A middle ground would be nice. People going out again, but not going too crazy JUST yet.
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Post by n1david on Apr 13, 2021 15:43:08 GMT
Strange to close the larger Lyttleton which you could cram more socially distanced punters into than the Dorfman I think the problem is likely to be the long rows in the Lyttleton and the number of people who would have to squeeze past each other. There are more aisles in the Olivier so access should be easier.
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Post by zahidf on Apr 15, 2021 8:13:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 8:42:45 GMT
So as we move nearer, the long running musicals that have declared seem to have their openings spaced out pretty evenly between end of June and (thus far) October. Certainly there isn't a rush to open in June. I think out of these, only Tina and Hamilton and then the new musical Cinderella are planning June starts (someone correct me if I am wrong).
Having been quite sceptical at Boris's last announcement (confirming the April restrictions ease) I now actually think that June 21st WILL happen and shows will be allowed to open without distancing. Things do seem to be going very well in the UK (at last!)
My main concern now, is that as yet, with London so so dependent on tourists (for the big musicals I'm referring to) there isn't really the audience to sustain all these shows being open. There may also be a factor of older people and more anxious people not being ready to return. (This isn't the case with anyone I know, but of course one most look outside of one's "social bubble") Anyway, perhaps that is why shows are not in a rush to open.
There also seem to be increasing mutterings and rumblings on the covid status certificates. My hunch now is that they may well come in for theatres. That will probably take some organising. And I guess if they become mandatory, theatres will need to offer refunds to patrons who refuse to partake as they booked tickets without thinking this would be the case.
Anyway, I am pro the certificates if it helps theatres open. But moreover, I think they will help theatres STAY open next Winter if and when we have the next wave. And I think that is key. If there is one thing I really hope we learn from all the current research, it's how we can keep things safely open while numbers are rising. For at least as long as the hospitals are coping.
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Post by Roxie on Apr 25, 2021 15:18:47 GMT
It’s a tricky one. I personally think masks will be here to stay for a while, and I’m fine with that to be fair but I’m not a glasses wearer, I can see how people wearing glasses get annoyed with them. I hope restrictions will ease significantly by the summer and social distancing is gone, fingers crossed!! Vaccine certificates is a tricky one. I can understand why some people think they’re a good idea, but I worry that unless they wait until everyone has been offered a vaccine, it creates risk of a 2 tier society. Also, I would hope they aren’t mandatory for people to do things like go to the shops, go to work etc, things that everyone needs to do. Otherwise, it’s coercing people to get a vaccine. And while I am pro vax, and hope most people take it up, ultimately people should be able to decide for themselves if they get vaccinated or not and it shouldn’t be a condition of going to essential places.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 15:27:41 GMT
It’s a tricky one. I personally think masks will be here to stay for a while, and I’m fine with that to be fair but I’m not a glasses wearer, I can see how people wearing glasses get annoyed with them. I hope restrictions will ease significantly by the summer and social distancing is gone, fingers crossed!! Vaccine certificates is a tricky one. I can understand why some people think they’re a good idea, but I worry that unless they wait until everyone has been offered a vaccine, it creates risk of a 2 tier society. Also, I would hope they aren’t mandatory for people to do things like go to the shops, go to work etc, things that everyone needs to do. Otherwise, it’s coercing people to get a vaccine. And while I am pro vax, and hope most people take it up, ultimately people should be able to decide for themselves if they get vaccinated or not and it shouldn’t be a condition of going to essential places. Yes I am also happy wearing a mask in the theatre, certainly for the time being. I hope there will be more studies into the evidence base for this though. And if and when circulating levels of the virus are very low, they certainly shouldn't continue to mandate them for the sake of it. The certificates are vaccine or antibodies or negative test. Assuming the latter is free, no issues re two tier society.
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