2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 20, 2020 14:12:07 GMT
People in this thread are conflating anti-vaxers in general with people who are anti this particular vaccine. For example the MMR has been around for years, has been administered 500 million times and thus is known to be safe. It would be foolish to refuse it. However this vaccine has been around for a few months and has been tested on less than 100,000 people, it also uses an entirely new technology which has never been been approved before. For higher risk people it would seem obvious to take it - for young people at little risk from the disease itself the decision is less clear. There is no real downside for them to wait a few years before deciding, to see how safe this vaccine is in practice or to wait for a “conventional” vaccine (not based on genetic modification techniques) to come along. In the case of children I think it might even be medically unethical to give it to them unless the protection it offered was permanent. Has every poster against against this vaccine given that answer? If that is what they meant but did not convey the message as eloquently as you have done then I understand. But not sure all have said that |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 15:02:06 GMT
With TB you had to have the 'six pricks' (teehee, said all the primary school children) first to see if you needed the jab. Then the BCG afterward, which left a scar for most people. I still have mine. It was quite the horror story among kids about how dreadful it all was, I was quite surprised when it just hurt a bit. All the kerfuffle seemed a bit overdone for something that was just 'Ow, bye'. It seems rather irresponsible to refuse the vaccine without good reason. None of us want this rubbish to go on forever - why should some people be able to take advantage of the improvements brought by a vaccine, without doing their bit? Once everyone has been offered it, I'd frankly make it a requirement for a hell of a lot of things. Some people genuinely cannot have this kind of jab so it's important for those who can to do so. Yes I also still have a very noticeable dent in my arm from the BCG - seems like a lot of people had injection site infections with that one, whereas for the HPV vaccine I have no scar at all! And I had this year's flu vaccine on Wednesday and already have no idea where the injection site was on my arm! Barely felt it at the time either. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2020 15:06:35 GMT
There is no real downside for them to wait a few years before deciding, to see how safe this vaccine is in practice or to wait for a “conventional” vaccine (not based on genetic modification techniques) to come along. There is a real downside, because the purpose of a vaccine isn't just to protect the individual but also, and far more importantly, to protect the group. A vaccine gives your immune system a head start when it comes to fighting infection but it doesn't mean the disease can't touch you. You can still catch the disease, and if it's a terminal one you can still die from it. All the vaccine does is reduce the risk.
The power of a vaccine comes from its effect on the population as a whole. It not only reduces each individual's chance of catching the disease but also reduces the prevalence of the disease in the population, and the latter is orders of magnitude more powerful than the former. If you vaccinate only the most vulnerable the disease will carry on circulating in everyone else and you might reduce the chance of dying to 10% of its previous value, because the only protection is that provided by the vaccine itself. If you vaccinate most of the population then you can get the reproduction rate below 1, reduce the number of cases to one or two per million, and thereby reduce the chance of dying to something like 0.001% of its previous value, because you're coupling the protection the vaccine gives to each individual with the fact that most people will never encounter the disease at all.
|
|
3,320 posts
|
Post by david on Nov 20, 2020 16:54:06 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by talkingheads on Nov 20, 2020 17:02:34 GMT
People in this thread are conflating anti-vaxers in general with people who are anti this particular vaccine. For example the MMR has been around for years, has been administered 500 million times and thus is known to be safe. It would be foolish to refuse it. However this vaccine has been around for a few months and has been tested on less than 100,000 people, it also uses an entirely new technology which has never been been approved before. For higher risk people it would seem obvious to take it - for young people at little risk from the disease itself the decision is less clear. There is no real downside for them to wait a few years before deciding, to see how safe this vaccine is in practice or to wait for a “conventional” vaccine (not based on genetic modification techniques) to come along. In the case of children I think it might even be medically unethical to give it to them unless the protection it offered was permanent. No real downside? I'd say carrying on with this lockdown stop start, a destroyed economy and social distancing for another few months will cause almost irreparable damage never mind a few years! |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 11:29:50 GMT
Wow, anti-vaxxer and libertarian memes all popping up together... I reckon Laurence Fox is masquerading as a board member! To give the other side of the coin, just back from my booster as part of one of the trials. Yes, it's my body, and I believe in the benefits of participating as a wider good to society. Anyone who refuses to be vaccinated should be made to pay for all of their healthcare. ‘Freedom’ has consequences, otherwise it’s like not getting yourself insured and expecting a payout. Post war there was a much more communal expectation but we’ve devolved into a decadent phase in the last thirty/forty years or so. Not everyone but enough to be a societal threat. |
|
311 posts
|
Post by olliebean on Nov 21, 2020 11:49:34 GMT
Anyone who refuses to be vaccinated should be made to pay for all of their healthcare. ‘Freedom’ has consequences, otherwise it’s like not getting yourself insured and expecting a payout. Post war there was a much more communal expectation but we’ve devolved into a decadent phase in the last thirty/forty years or so. Not everyone but enough to be a societal threat. I would strongly oppose any measure that would undermine the principle of free healthcare for all. But there could be other consequences: for example, allowing employers to specify vaccination as a condition of employment, or (more pertinent to this board) theatres refusing entry to the unvaccinated. |
|
|
|
Post by talkingheads on Nov 21, 2020 12:24:24 GMT
Anyone who refuses to be vaccinated should be made to pay for all of their healthcare. ‘Freedom’ has consequences, otherwise it’s like not getting yourself insured and expecting a payout. Post war there was a much more communal expectation but we’ve devolved into a decadent phase in the last thirty/forty years or so. Not everyone but enough to be a societal threat. I would strongly oppose any measure that would undermine the principle of free healthcare for all. But there could be other consequences: for example, allowing employers to specify vaccination as a condition of employment, or (more pertinent to this board) theatres refusing entry to the unvaccinated. What's wrong with theatres refusing the unvaccinated? Why should they be allowed to come in and spread the virus while willingly refusing the treatnent? |
|
1,863 posts
|
Post by NeilVHughes on Nov 21, 2020 12:28:56 GMT
Vaccines along with antibiotics are the success stories of 20th Century medicine and there is a good chance of some of us on this forum would not be here were it not for vaccines.
The issue I believe comes down to illness as being something that happens to other people and therefore preventative measures are seen as an impingement on their free will and way of life and any risk to this is seen as too high even though the risks we take each day by living would outweigh any of a vaccine.
All medicines have an impact on our biochemistry by definition otherwise why take them, I do not know any anti-Vaxxers but would not be surprised if many if not all do take post illness medication such as antibiotics, insulin, statins and the multitude of other medications prescribed in their millions every day.
I also find the chipping argument laughable, placing a chip in ‘Walkers Crisps’ would be a lot more effective and a hell of a lot cheaper.
Also take those that criticise Bill Gates on population control, he is giving the developing Countries the choice we now have due to the measures we introduced generations ago to control our population, in these Countries they have large families as infant mortality is high and Bill Gates wants to reduce the drive for large families just so a few can reach adulthood and they are able to live the lives we lead. We never say in the U.K. that people who choose 1 or 2 children are practicing population control whilst in fact that is what they are doing.
When watching Who Do You Think You Are nearly all are surprised how many of their relatives died in childhood and we need all nations to be confident that their children will reach adulthood.
I read somewhere but have been unable to corroborate that it was only in the early 60’s that being under one was no longer the age with the greatest mortality in Britain.
|
|
311 posts
|
Post by olliebean on Nov 21, 2020 12:37:16 GMT
I would strongly oppose any measure that would undermine the principle of free healthcare for all. But there could be other consequences: for example, allowing employers to specify vaccination as a condition of employment, or (more pertinent to this board) theatres refusing entry to the unvaccinated. What's wrong with theatres refusing the unvaccinated? Why should they be allowed to come in and spread the virus while willingly refusing the treatnent? I didn't say there would be anything wrong with it. I'm just presenting it as a potential consequence of refusing to be vaccinated. By no means am I saying there should be no consequences; just that the withholding of free healthcare shouldn't be one of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 19:11:30 GMT
I'm sitting here waiting for Trump to claim credit for the Oxford vaccine.
|
|
2,389 posts
|
Post by peggs on Nov 23, 2020 19:50:31 GMT
Hasn't someone already said the vaccine should be named Trump in his honour? And sadly I kid not.
Found my mother moaning about the jab, having to have two! How can it have been developed so quickly yada yada yada but she's a Lawrence Fox fan so I had little hope there.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2020 20:23:30 GMT
Hasn't someone already said the vaccine should be named Trump in his honour? I remember that. (Searches.) Geraldo Rivera of Fox News.
I think a better idea would be for Trump to mean a planetary scale hissy fit where you try to wreck everything just because it turns out the world doesn't revolve around you. "I didn't get my five year old an iPad for his birthday. Ooh, he threw such a Trump!"
|
|
879 posts
|
Post by daisy24601 on Nov 23, 2020 20:52:18 GMT
I probably would, I trust it. But I won't because I don't mind dying soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by sph on Nov 24, 2020 0:38:27 GMT
I will ABSOLUTELY DEFINITELY HAPPILY be getting vaccinated. The sooner we all do it the sooner we can get our lives back on track.
I don't understand the anti-vax movement at all. Maybe it comes down to the resistance to taking medicine if you aren't already sick? "I'm fine, why do I need it?"- or something like that. I'd rather take the very very very minutely small risk of something being wrong with the vaccine than spend the rest of my days watching a virus cause a total economic collapse and leave me with no career and no social life.
And how are vaccines and phone apps going to allow the government to start "tracking and controlling" us anyway? When we are born, our birth is registered, we register with doctors and with schools, we are given a unique national insurance number and we register our cars with individual license plates. Then we carry plastic cards which make a record of each shop we've spent money in and sign up to websites with our addresses and carry our phones with us which we use to tag our locations and upload photos of ourselves all day on social media.
Why would the government need to microchip us? You're already listed in more databases than you could ever even know about! That's just modern society. Go get your vaccines people. The government doesn't want to put a GPS dot in you just to watch you go shopping in Primark in Milton Keynes on a Sunday afternoon.
|
|
5,062 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Nov 24, 2020 1:09:22 GMT
Unfortunately being in a category of being very vulnerable, I have absolutely no choice but to have it. But then again if I wasn’t vulnerable I would still take it, as ultimately I don’t want to spread to other people.
In America the Government has bought so many millions of jabs, which are free. However you have to claim on your health insurance for the administration.
|
|
4,988 posts
|
Post by Someone in a tree on Nov 24, 2020 8:15:50 GMT
Unfortunately being in a category of being very vulnerable, I have absolutely no choice but to have it. But then again if I wasn’t vulnerable I would still take it, as ultimately I don’t want to spread to other people. In America the Government has bought so many millions of jabs, which are free. However you have to claim on your health insurance for the administration. But you don't actually have to take it. You want to take it so you go back to a your former lifestyle Even the most vulnerable are not been forced to take it. It's still a choice. |
|
22 posts
|
Post by rosie on Nov 26, 2020 12:05:45 GMT
Can't wait personally. The extremely low risk of any issues with a vaccine are nothing to get out from this constrained isolated life we're presently living
|
|
311 posts
|
Post by olliebean on Nov 27, 2020 0:06:52 GMT
I'm waiting to see how the government goes about this. If they give the job of administering the vaccines to the NHS, I'll be first in line (or at least whatever position in line my priority grouping allows me to be). If they give it to Pestfix, I may have to think twice.
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 27, 2020 18:40:28 GMT
My mates missus has massively ran with the anti-vax thing. Makes me laugh when she starts about the vaccine being unknown when she had no problems taking bombs of magic back in her kitchen after parklife
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2020 10:11:47 GMT
|
|
19,787 posts
|
Post by BurlyBeaR on Dec 2, 2020 12:47:47 GMT
|
|
5,062 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Dec 3, 2020 2:33:11 GMT
Unfortunately being in a category of being very vulnerable, I have absolutely no choice but to have it. But then again if I wasn’t vulnerable I would still take it, as ultimately I don’t want to spread to other people. In America the Government has bought so many millions of jabs, which are free. However you have to claim on your health insurance for the administration. But you don't actually have to take it. You want to take it so you go back to a your former lifestyle Even the most vulnerable are not been forced to take it. It's still a choice. I know it is not mandatory to take it and I do have a choice. But being very vulnerable and catching it, it would be own goal for me if I didn’t. |
|
490 posts
|
Post by bimse on Dec 3, 2020 12:11:51 GMT
I’ll definitely have it , right now it’s our only chance of protecting ourselves, and let’s never forget protecting others too .
I used to work for the NHS, and every year we were encouraged to have a flu jab . I always accepted, but I was always amazed how low the uptake was among nurses, certainly at my hospital.
I’ll be interested to see if the same attitude prevails with this vaccine .
|
|
|
|
Post by sph on Dec 3, 2020 22:13:00 GMT
My personal theory is that if vaccines all came in tablet form for example, there'd be far less anti-vaxxers. Think of how many medicines/tablets/syrups/creams you take from your doctor over the course of your life without question, yet as soon as it comes in the form of a needle people lose their minds.
|
|
