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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 12, 2020 19:30:19 GMT
Lots of discussion about the “cancellation” of Fawlty Towers, Dad’s Army, Kevin and Stacey, Little Britain etc.
There must be some theatre that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I can think of one (so called) comedy musical in particular that I’ve been calling out for ages.
Does theatre get a free pass because it’s “art” while popular tv comedies get cancelled?
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2020 19:34:21 GMT
Lots of discussion about the “cancellation” of Fawlty Towers, Dad’s Army, Kevin and Stacey, Little Britain etc. There must be some theatre that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I can think of one (so called) comedy musical in particular that I’ve been calling out for ages. Does theatre get a free pass because it’s “art” while popular tv comedies get cancelled? Gavin and Stacey isn't being pulled, it was a made up story in the tabloids. Mame is one musical has aged badly and probably one of the reasons it's not revived now. |
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Post by sf on Jun 12, 2020 19:39:28 GMT
Lots of discussion about the “cancellation” of Fawlty Towers, Dad’s Army, Kevin and Stacey, Little Britain etc. There must be some theatre that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I can think of one (so called) comedy musical in particular that I’ve been calling out for ages. Does theatre get a free pass because it’s “art” while popular tv comedies get cancelled? The Chinese characters in the 1987 version of Anything Goes - the standard edition of the show available for performance now - are wince-inducing. That element of the script wasn't funny thirty years ago, and it's way past its sell-by date now. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't get a free pass. |
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Post by sf on Jun 12, 2020 19:49:51 GMT
...and of course the N-word in Show Boat has to be approached very carefully these days. I've heard someone complain about theatres being too scared to perform certain lyrics as originally written in 1927 - particularly the question of precisely WHO works on the Mississipi in the opening chorus - and it's a ridiculous argument. Certain words, most definitely including that one, are too freighted now to be thrown around the way they were 90 years ago. Given the show's plot, the word has to be used - but it has to be deployed consciously and carefully with an awareness that it will land like a bomb.
For my money, the Goodspeed script - the version that was the basis for the recent-ish revival in Sheffield and London - found the right balance. It would be VERY easy to get it wrong.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 12, 2020 19:51:01 GMT
Lots of discussion about the “cancellation” of Fawlty Towers, Dad’s Army, Kevin and Stacey, Little Britain etc. There must be some theatre that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I can think of one (so called) comedy musical in particular that I’ve been calling out for ages. Does theatre get a free pass because it’s “art” while popular tv comedies get cancelled? Gavin and Stacey isn't being pulled, it was a made up story in the tabloids. Mame is one musical has aged badly and probably one of the reasons it's not revived now. In the recent Hope Mill revival I didn’t notice anything untoward. The lyric about cotton was removed though. What else is problematic? |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jun 12, 2020 19:51:58 GMT
Thoroughly Modern Millie?
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 12, 2020 20:06:40 GMT
Thoroughly Modern Millie? Yes and that's even without Michelle Collins |
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2020 20:12:30 GMT
Gavin and Stacey isn't being pulled, it was a made up story in the tabloids. Mame is one musical has aged badly and probably one of the reasons it's not revived now. In the recent Hope Mill revival I didn’t notice anything untoward. The lyric about cotton was removed though. What else is problematic? Just the bit you mentioned. She marries a cotton plantation owner in the show and cotton plantations in the Deep South have historical links to slavery. |
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Post by Someone in a tree on Jun 12, 2020 20:16:24 GMT
In the recent Hope Mill revival I didn’t notice anything untoward. The lyric about cotton was removed though. What else is problematic? Just the bit you mentioned. She marries a cotton plantation owner in the show and cotton plantations in the Deep South have historical links to slavery. But how is it mentioned? We all know people unfortunately owned them and we can't erase those facts |
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Post by jaqs on Jun 12, 2020 20:24:36 GMT
Gigi is problematic.
We’d not have a blacked up Othello anymore.
It’s easier for theatre to fade away than TV. No one in the 60s could have imagined that the world would start beaming their shows into their homes on demand when the world had changed so much.
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2020 20:27:26 GMT
Gigi is problematic. We’d not have a blacked up Othello anymore. It’s easier for theatre to fade away than TV. No one in the 60s could have imagined that the world would start beaming their shows into their homes on demand when the world had changed so much. Laurence Olivier played Othello on screen black faced. Miss Saigon was problematic back in 1989 when Jonathan Pryce played The Engineer. |
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 12, 2020 20:28:24 GMT
Personally I think censoring comedy shows or indeed any art from the past is wrong. It is as much a part of history as anything else and looking back on it enables us to see how far we have come. Put a warning up before the show to explain and give context to it, then people who might be offended can choose not to watch.
In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene.
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Post by sf on Jun 12, 2020 20:36:00 GMT
In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene. Quite, but there's a huge difference between Fawlty Towers and something like Love Thy Neighbour - another 70s sitcom, but one which you will never see repeated, and with good reason. In the case of Show Boat, which I cited further up this thread, it's not about censorship. It's about understanding that the impact of certain words and certain tropes has changed over the past century to the point where you have to take into account that they will land very differently with an audience today. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 20:48:31 GMT
Personally I think censoring comedy shows or indeed any art from the past is wrong. It is as much a part of history as anything else and looking back on it enables us to see how far we have come. I think there are some works that we can do without: anything based around the idea of "these people are not like us; let us mock them for their different ways". But when a work is clearly holding the attitudes of the past up to ridicule then yes, we do need to keep it around. If we cover up too much then we're playing straight into the hands of the deniers who peddle the fiction that things weren't as bad as everyone claims. |
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Post by Jon on Jun 12, 2020 21:01:42 GMT
It’s surprising that black face was even acceptable in the 2000s. The one I remember wincing at the time was at Kevin Bishop spoofing Keisha from the Sugababes in blackface and that was only 12 years ago
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 12, 2020 21:19:29 GMT
In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene. Quite, but there's a huge difference between Fawlty Towers and something like Love Thy Neighbour - another 70s sitcom, but one which you will never see repeated, and with good reason. In the case of Show Boat, which I cited further up this thread, it's not about censorship. It's about understanding that the impact of certain words and certain tropes has changed over the past century to the point where you have to take into account that they will land very differently with an audience today. Actually I watched Love Thy Neighbour preparing to find it cringe worthy. And found that it was a genuinely funny show where both Jack Smethurst and Rudolph Walker trade barbs and insults, the racism goes both ways and Walker's character is clearly more intelligent than Smethurst. No it wouldn't be my go to sitcom by any means but there is a bit more to it than it's reputation would suggest. Something like Curry and Chips however, written by Johnny Speight and starring a blacked up Spike Milligan absolutely deserves to be consigned to the bin of forgotten sitcoms. |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 12, 2020 21:23:04 GMT
Personally I think censoring comedy shows or indeed any art from the past is wrong. It is as much a part of history as anything else and looking back on it enables us to see how far we have come. Put a warning up before the show to explain and give context to it, then people who might be offended can choose not to watch. In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene. I completely understand that sentiment but I personally I think we have to draw the line at the n word and racial slurs. This is a perfect opportunity to listen to those who this affects and whilst many are saying this whole tv show removal thing actually detracts from the BLM movement, everyone agrees that that word has absolutely no place in society, whether it's endorsed by the show or not or was “of the time”. Black people do not deserve to pay for streaming services and then be faced with that word (someone I talked to today had this exact concern with her cousins). Remove the words, his attitudes will still be clear. The BBC censored this episode back in 2013 which is why many people don't even remember the racial slurs. The fact that UKTV and Netflix were still showing the episode unedited it quite staggering. It will not affect the enjoyment or funniness of the episode by not having those words there! |
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Post by londonpostie on Jun 12, 2020 21:32:03 GMT
Personally I think censoring comedy shows or indeed any art from the past is wrong. It is as much a part of history as anything else and looking back on it enables us to see how far we have come. Put a warning up before the show to explain and give context to it, then people who might be offended can choose not to watch. In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene. I completely understand that sentiment but I personally I think we have to draw the line at the n word and racial slurs. This is a character playing a part for a reason. These characters existed, it's the context that got us to where we are.
Shall we pretend te n word never existed at all, that would be nicer for everyone.
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 12, 2020 21:34:42 GMT
Personally I think censoring comedy shows or indeed any art from the past is wrong. It is as much a part of history as anything else and looking back on it enables us to see how far we have come. Put a warning up before the show to explain and give context to it, then people who might be offended can choose not to watch. In the case of Fawlty Towers for example. The Major is a relic from another age and his awful language reflects that. It isn't endorsed by Fawlty in the scene. I completely understand that sentiment but I personally I think we have to draw the line at the n word and racial slurs. This is a perfect opportunity to listen to those who this affects and whilst many are saying this whole tv show removal thing actually detracts from the BLM movement, everyone agrees that that word has absolutely no place in society, whether it's endorsed by the show or not or was “of the time”. Black people do not deserve to pay for streaming services and then be faced with that word (someone I talked to today had this exact concern with her cousins). Remove the words, his attitudes will still be clear. The BBC censored this episode back in 2013 which is why many people don't even remember the racial slurs. The fact that UKTV and Netflix were still showing the episode unedited it quite staggering. It will not affect the enjoyment or funniness of the episode by not having those words there! I still think a warning at the start would help. But with respect to that particular scene, the line doesn't add anything to the episode plot wise so I agree, removing it is probably the best thing to do. Cleese and Booth agreed to cut the line years ago so that should be the end of it but people love to stir up a drama! |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 12, 2020 21:35:04 GMT
Quite, but there's a huge difference between Fawlty Towers and something like Love Thy Neighbour - another 70s sitcom, but one which you will never see repeated, and with good reason. In the case of Show Boat, which I cited further up this thread, it's not about censorship. It's about understanding that the impact of certain words and certain tropes has changed over the past century to the point where you have to take into account that they will land very differently with an audience today. the racism goes both ways I have serious issues with the “racism goes both ways” argument but I haven't seen Love Thy Neighbour. I believe racial prejudice against white people is something that could happen, and would be totally wrong. But I don't believe it can be racism because the power structure is forever weighted on the side of white people and there is no widespread, lasting negative impact against white people. Lasting disadvantages such as education, healthcare, and career aspects that white people may face, will not face them because of their skin colour. But for black people, they will. I know I’m making a big deal out of a flippant comment but I think it's important. It's our privilege that we can be so flippant. |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 12, 2020 21:37:58 GMT
I completely understand that sentiment but I personally I think we have to draw the line at the n word and racial slurs. This is a character playing a part for a reason. These characters existed, it's the context that got us to where we are.
Shall we pretend te n word never existed at all, that would be nicer for everyone.
Do you actually need the hear the n word to remember that it existed? No one does. That word does not need to be heard in 2020, least of all by black people. We all remember perfectly well that it exists because people *today* use it, because they still believe it's as acceptable today as it was then. So in this particular instance, it's time to show that it's not acceptable today. |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 12, 2020 21:41:06 GMT
I completely understand that sentiment but I personally I think we have to draw the line at the n word and racial slurs. This is a perfect opportunity to listen to those who this affects and whilst many are saying this whole tv show removal thing actually detracts from the BLM movement, everyone agrees that that word has absolutely no place in society, whether it's endorsed by the show or not or was “of the time”. Black people do not deserve to pay for streaming services and then be faced with that word (someone I talked to today had this exact concern with her cousins). Remove the words, his attitudes will still be clear. The BBC censored this episode back in 2013 which is why many people don't even remember the racial slurs. The fact that UKTV and Netflix were still showing the episode unedited it quite staggering. It will not affect the enjoyment or funniness of the episode by not having those words there! I still think a warning at the start would help. But with respect to that particular scene, the line doesn't add anything to the episode plot wise so I agree, removing it is probably the best thing to do. Cleese and Booth agreed to cut the line years ago so that should be the end of it but people love to stir up a drama! Agreed, agreed and agreed! |
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 12, 2020 21:41:12 GMT
the racism goes both ways I have serious issues with the “racism goes both ways” argument but I haven't seen Love Thy Neighbour. I believe racial prejudice against white people is something that could happen, and would be totally wrong. But I don't believe it can be racism because the power structure is forever weighted against white people and there is no widespread, lasting negative impact against white people. Lasting disadvantages such as education, healthcare, and career aspects that white people may face, will not face them because of their skin colour. But for black people, they will. I know I’m making a big deal out of a flippant comment but I think it's important. It's our privilege that we can be so flippant. Oh absolutely. I would never ever claim that they are comparable in life. Only in the context of Love Thy Neighbour for every black slur there was one shot straight back at the white man. I would honestly say watch an episode or two. The language is shocking but I found it insightful and in amongst the racism are a lot of genuinely funny gags and great performances. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 23:40:54 GMT
This is a character playing a part for a reason. These characters existed, it's the context that got us to where we are.
Shall we pretend te n word never existed at all, that would be nicer for everyone.
Do you actually need the hear the n word to remember that it existed? No one does. That word does not need to be heard in 2020, least of all by black people. We all remember perfectly well that it exists because people *today* use it, because they still believe it's as acceptable today as it was then. So in this particular instance, it's time to show that it's not acceptable today. Someone had better tell that to a bunch of black rappers, then. And yes, I fully understand it’s different for white people and black people to use the word. But to me it’s just plain ugly and shouldn’t be uttered. Interesting piece in Variety mentioning this: variety.com/2018/music/opinion/kendrick-lamar-rappers-should-stop-using-n-word-1202818977/I watched the remake of Roots a while back, a series that offered a shocking reminder of the human cost of slavery. I winced every time the N word was deployed. Of course it was there for a reason - to reflect historical truth - but I did think how deeply unpleasant it must be for the black actors to have to hear it, and indeed for the white actors to have to say it. (I can’t remember if the episodes in question carried warnings, but I assume they did.) |
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 13, 2020 1:16:47 GMT
Do you actually need the hear the n word to remember that it existed? No one does. That word does not need to be heard in 2020, least of all by black people. We all remember perfectly well that it exists because people *today* use it, because they still believe it's as acceptable today as it was then. So in this particular instance, it's time to show that it's not acceptable today. Someone had better tell that to a bunch of black rappers, then. And yes, I fully understand it’s different for white people and black people to use the word. But to me it’s just plain ugly and shouldn’t be uttered. Interesting piece in Variety mentioning this: variety.com/2018/music/opinion/kendrick-lamar-rappers-should-stop-using-n-word-1202818977/I watched the remake of Roots a while back, a series that offered a shocking reminder of the human cost of slavery. I winced every time the N word was deployed. Of course it was there for a reason - to reflect historical truth - but I did think how deeply unpleasant it must be for the black actors to have to hear it, and indeed for the white actors to have to say it. (I can’t remember if the episodes in question carried warnings, but I assume they did.) I'm with you - I’d much prefer to never hear the word uttered by anyone ever again. But far be it from me, a white man, to tell black communities to stop using the n-word. That's a conversation for black communities to have, if they choose to have it. Thanks for the link to the article, I shall read it in the morning! |
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