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Post by intoanewlife on Jun 15, 2020 17:10:50 GMT
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Post by joem on Jun 25, 2020 12:55:07 GMT
Scrap all shows, everything is offensive to someone. Fear has killed the theatre anyway so censorship can finish it off.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 25, 2020 16:07:10 GMT
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Post by oxfordsimon on Jun 25, 2020 16:24:54 GMT
Removing overt references to The Song of the South is something that should have happened a long time ago.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 25, 2020 16:52:59 GMT
Removing overt references to The Song of the South is something that should have happened a long time ago. It's only been 15 years or so since it was on BBC2 but it was always daft to have a ride based on a banned film.
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Post by talkingheads on Jun 27, 2020 13:40:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 1:11:07 GMT
Everyone's a little bit racist should not be cut - the message behind it isn't celebrating racism, it is acknowledging that such attitudes exist and challenges them. It would be wrong for theatre to pretend that racism isn't an issue - humour can be a powerful tool in tackling hate.
Right.
'The More You Ruv Someone', on the other hand, does nothing more than poke fun at a stereotype, and the fact that it's an accurate stereotype - there's plenty of bad English signage in Japan that substitutes R for L or vice versa - doesn't entirely get it a free pass.
The Rs as Ls in some Cantonese countries is a legit speech pattern and I'd treat that the same as Rs as Ws or a lisp. Do we stop things like that now. Is mimicking an accent even allowed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 1:15:49 GMT
When I was at university - mid 00s - I did a project on changing attitudes and showed parts of Love Thy Neighbour to my seminar group (approved by the tutor) - and they were not happy with the content at all. There is a reason why it’s not available (and I had to try and find it pre YouTube etc) and it has to be one the BBC’s most embarrassing shows. Basically I showed an episode about the main white character wanting to move because he was sick of his black neighbour. Anyway, a valuation took place and he was very happy with it, until the estate agent found out the neighbours were black - and he quickly dropped the valuation and said the house was now worth only a fraction... the punchline of course being they were stuck living next door to each other. But this was prime time BBC comedy. Love Thy Neighbour should be shown and taught in school in my opinion - I actually think a lot of white people (especially kids) have never seen outright racism and this just highlights the absurdity of it. Plus it’s important to contextualise how far we have come and how far we still have to go. Of course it will never happen, but it would be a positive step for the BBC to reclaim ownership over their production (rather than pretend it doesn’t exist) and repurpose into something positive. Love Thy Neighbour was a piece of it's time. I can recall it vaguely but didn't "Snowflake" get his comeuppance most times from Rudolph Walker's character. I don't know if the writing was done to highlight bigotry as Till Death Us Do Part did so brilliantly and if so it was a rather clumsy but well meaning idea at best.
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Post by sf on Jul 3, 2020 1:27:15 GMT
Right.
'The More You Ruv Someone', on the other hand, does nothing more than poke fun at a stereotype, and the fact that it's an accurate stereotype - there's plenty of bad English signage in Japan that substitutes R for L or vice versa - doesn't entirely get it a free pass.
The Rs as Ls in some Cantonese countries is a legit speech pattern and I'd treat that the same as Rs as Ws or a lisp. Do we stop things like that now. Is mimicking an accent even allowed.
It's a legitimate speech pattern in Japan - the character is Japanese - even on some written signs (I saw a sign in a restaurant in Tokyo in January saying "this door is rocked", for example). The issue with that song is that the humour in it comes entirely from white writers poking fun at an Asian speech pattern; they just about get away with it when the role is played by someone like Ann Harada or Naoko Mori, but it's seriously dodgy when Christmas Eve is played by a Caucasian actress.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 11:08:53 GMT
The Rs as Ls in some Cantonese countries is a legit speech pattern and I'd treat that the same as Rs as Ws or a lisp. Do we stop things like that now. Is mimicking an accent even allowed.
It's a legitimate speech pattern in Japan - the character is Japanese - even on some written signs (I saw a sign in a restaurant in Tokyo in January saying "this door is rocked", for example). The issue with that song is that the humour in it comes entirely from white writers poking fun at an Asian speech pattern; they just about get away with it when the role is played by someone like Ann Harada or Naoko Mori, but it's seriously dodgy when Christmas Eve is played by a Caucasian actress.
Ideally a role like Christmas Eve should be played by an actress of Cantonese/South Asian background or someone who could pass for that ethnicity. If it is say a blonde haired white actress then it just looks stupid and could seem more offensive.
The Rs and Ls turning one word into another to create social misunderstanding is very funny IMO if written well.
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Post by sf on Jul 3, 2020 12:23:45 GMT
It's a legitimate speech pattern in Japan - the character is Japanese - even on some written signs (I saw a sign in a restaurant in Tokyo in January saying "this door is rocked", for example). The issue with that song is that the humour in it comes entirely from white writers poking fun at an Asian speech pattern; they just about get away with it when the role is played by someone like Ann Harada or Naoko Mori, but it's seriously dodgy when Christmas Eve is played by a Caucasian actress.
Ideally a role like Christmas Eve should be played by an actress of Cantonese/South Asian background or someone who could pass for that ethnicity. If it is say a blonde haired white actress then it just looks stupid and could seem more offensive.
The Rs and Ls turning one word into another to create social misunderstanding is very funny IMO if written well.
Not entirely sure why a Japanese woman should be played by a Cantonese actress. The issue isn't whether the song is funny. It's that the humour in it comes entirely from making fun of a racist stereotype. That is, it's a fact that there is no direct translation of the letter L in Japanese and that the range of sounds employed in the Japanese language is such that the line between L and R is very, very blurred, which means Japanese people often inadvertently substitute R for L when trying to speak or write English - but it's also a stereotype, and a stereotype that has historically been used by white people, and particularly by white Americans, to make fun of the Japanese. (And that's without getting into the history of white American racism against Japanese immigrants, which predates World War 2.) There's a big difference, in Avenue Q, between 'The More You Ruv Someone' and 'Everyone's A Little Bit Racist': both songs contain racist jokes, but the racist jokes in 'Everyone's A Little Bit Racist' are there specifically to make the point that everybody, whether they admit it or not, makes judgements based on subconscious race-based bias. 'The More You Ruv Someone', on the other hand, is basically just a racist joke. It's white writers making fun of a Japanese woman for pronouncing something differently from most western people, and there's no purpose to the joke other than to make a joke based on the character's ethnicity. As I said, when an actress of Japanese heritage is playing the role the writers just about get away with it; when it's a white woman with a dark wig, as it has been in at least one touring cast, it's wince-inducing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 19:47:46 GMT
Ideally a role like Christmas Eve should be played by an actress of Cantonese/South Asian background or someone who could pass for that ethnicity. If it is say a blonde haired white actress then it just looks stupid and could seem more offensive.
The Rs and Ls turning one word into another to create social misunderstanding is very funny IMO if written well.
Not entirely sure why a Japanese woman should be played by a Cantonese actress. The issue isn't whether the song is funny. It's that the humour in it comes entirely from making fun of a racist stereotype. That is, it's a fact that there is no direct translation of the letter L in Japanese and that the range of sounds employed in the Japanese language is such that the line between L and R is very, very blurred, which means Japanese people often inadvertently substitute R for L when trying to speak or write English - but it's also a stereotype, and a stereotype that has historically been used by white people, and particularly by white Americans, to make fun of the Japanese. (And that's without getting into the history of white American racism against Japanese immigrants, which predates World War 2.) There's a big difference, in Avenue Q, between 'The More You Ruv Someone' and 'Everyone's A Little Bit Racist': both songs contain racist jokes, but the racist jokes in 'Everyone's A Little Bit Racist' are there specifically to make the point that everybody, whether they admit it or not, makes judgements based on subconscious race-based bias. 'The More You Ruv Someone', on the other hand, is basically just a racist joke. It's white writers making fun of a Japanese woman for pronouncing something differently from most western people, and there's no purpose to the joke other than to make a joke based on the character's ethnicity. As I said, when an actress of Japanese heritage is playing the role the writers just about get away with it; when it's a white woman with a dark wig, as it has been in at least one touring cast, it's wince-inducing.
Is mimicking or impersonating any pattern of speech or a regional accent now considered no go if you cannot joke about the way a country of nationaity may talk. Most countries will have some sort of stereotype some will be more offensive than others of course.
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Post by sf on Jul 3, 2020 20:19:58 GMT
Is mimicking or impersonating any pattern of speech or a regional accent now considered no go if you cannot joke about the way a country of nationaity may talk. Most countries will have some sort of stereotype some will be more offensive than others of course.
Is this for real?!
Well, put it this way: as someone with a slight but identifiable northern accent, I do not find it amusing when theatre directors use some kind of northern accent as a shorthand for 'thick' or 'uneducated'.
NO, it's not OK to poke fun at a stereotyped speech pattern, which is one of the reasons Apu on The Simpsons has always been so cringeworthy (and that, actually, is an example of something that would be very nearly as awful voiced by an actor of the correct heritage as it has been when voices by Hank Azaria). It's also not OK to make fun of someone's skin colour, hair, other physical attributes including but not limited to height and weight. Can you still get away with humour based on race and stereotyping? Yes... carefully, depending on the intent behind the joke. There's a big difference between, say, Love Thy Neighbour and Goodness Gracious Me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 13:24:19 GMT
Is mimicking or impersonating any pattern of speech or a regional accent now considered no go if you cannot joke about the way a country of nationaity may talk. Most countries will have some sort of stereotype some will be more offensive than others of course.
Is this for real?!
Well, put it this way: as someone with a slight but identifiable northern accent, I do not find it amusing when theatre directors use some kind of northern accent as a shorthand for 'thick' or 'uneducated'.
NO, it's not OK to poke fun at a stereotyped speech pattern, which is one of the reasons Apu on The Simpsons has always been so cringeworthy (and that, actually, is an example of something that would be very nearly as awful voiced by an actor of the correct heritage as it has been when voices by Hank Azaria). It's also not OK to make fun of someone's skin colour, hair, other physical attributes including but not limited to height and weight. Can you still get away with humour based on race and stereotyping? Yes... carefully, depending on the intent behind the joke. There's a big difference between, say, Love Thy Neighbour and Goodness Gracious Me.
Good point but how can we tell the difference between being offensive or doing an impression. Shows like Goodness Gracious Me and the Real McCoy were people sending up their own heritage races. So is this allowed like the famous self mocking Jewish comedians. Is an accent mocked on region okay but not on race. I'm from Birmingham and the Brummie/Black Country accent is mocked or impersonated a lot so to is the Scouse accent. What about TV impersonators would a white impressionist be able to do a vocal impression of Barack Obama or a black person doing Donald Trump for example is that now offensive?
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Post by sf on Jul 4, 2020 13:48:43 GMT
What about TV impersonators would a white impressionist be able to do a vocal impression of Barack Obama or a black person doing Donald Trump for example is that now offensive? As I said, it depends on the intent behind the joke. Yes, absolutely a white impressionist can do Barack Obama - but not in blackface, and not if the point of the joke is simply to make a racial slur. You might think that's a point that shouldn't need making, but the depictions of Obama in political cartoons in the US's conservative media have often been thoroughly vile.
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Post by pianowithsam on Jul 4, 2020 17:18:21 GMT
BOM is out to offend everyone. Every person on that stage is a stereotype. Its not singleing any out. Everything that is referenced is based in fact. The line about God changing his mind avout black people was because Mormons wouldnt allow black clergy. Why is that problematic? Xandy - can i ask why your friend deeply regretted being in the show? And I think this is the main reason people are getting upset about some shows being taken off TV, Little Britain & Come Fly With Me especially. (I haven't seen Little Britain, so won't comment on it). The blackface from Matt Lucas in CFWM is of course questionable, but, again, the show pokes fun at everybody and doesn't single people out. I was reading an article the other day that made a good point in saying that had they have not featured a character of colour, people would have accused the show of being racist. An interesting point of discussion.
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Post by crabtree on Jul 4, 2020 17:42:09 GMT
Ragtime, as I remember, handles the racial issues well.A terrible storyline but it's clear which characters the audience are rooting for.
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Post by sf on Jul 4, 2020 17:43:33 GMT
The blackface from Matt Lucas in CFWM is of course questionable, but, again, the show pokes fun at everybody and doesn't single people out. ...which doesn't justify the blackface, which is - with good reason - absolutely out of order. And in that case, it's not something where perceptions have changed all that much over the last decade. The blackface was witless and offensive ten years ago when the show first aired.
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Post by talkingheads on Jul 4, 2020 17:56:56 GMT
BOM is out to offend everyone. Every person on that stage is a stereotype. Its not singleing any out. Everything that is referenced is based in fact. The line about God changing his mind avout black people was because Mormons wouldnt allow black clergy. Why is that problematic? Xandy - can i ask why your friend deeply regretted being in the show? I was reading an article the other day that made a good point in saying that had they have not featured a character of colour, people would have accused the show of being racist. An interesting point of discussion. If they wanted a person of colour in their show then they should have cast a person of colour.
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Post by pianowithsam on Jul 4, 2020 18:14:12 GMT
I was reading an article the other day that made a good point in saying that had they have not featured a character of colour, people would have accused the show of being racist. An interesting point of discussion. If they wanted a person of colour in their show then they should have cast a person of colour.
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Post by pianowithsam on Jul 4, 2020 18:15:52 GMT
The blackface from Matt Lucas in CFWM is of course questionable, but, again, the show pokes fun at everybody and doesn't single people out. ...which doesn't justify the blackface, which is - with good reason - absolutely out of order. And in that case, it's not something where perceptions have changed all that much over the last decade. The blackface was witless and offensive ten years ago when the show first aired. Sure. Was just saying trying to link it to Mormon. As it was said before, everybody gets their fair share of offensive treatment in the show. Likewise happens in the program. That's what was said in the article.
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Post by pianowithsam on Jul 4, 2020 18:21:40 GMT
Obviously of a very different idea, but I'm quite surprised that there hasn't been a lot of discussion in regards to Springtime For Hitler from The Producers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 20:58:47 GMT
What about TV impersonators would a white impressionist be able to do a vocal impression of Barack Obama or a black person doing Donald Trump for example is that now offensive? As I said, it depends on the intent behind the joke. Yes, absolutely a white impressionist can do Barack Obama - but not in blackface, and not if the point of the joke is simply to make a racial slur. You might think that's a point that shouldn't need making, but the depictions of Obama in political cartoons in the US's conservative media have often been thoroughly vile. Thanks for the reply SF. Clearly anyone doing blackface in 2020 would be totally unacceptable. With the more recent occurrences being called out I haven't heard Robert Downey Jnr in Tropical Thunder mentioned when he was incredibly Academy Award nominated for appearing in blackface although the premise was funny that he'd had some injections to darken his skin and as a method actor stayed like that for so long. The joke could have worked well having Downey play the character as a white guy and then a black actor play the role before reverting to Downey as the darkening faded.
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Post by sf on Jul 4, 2020 21:21:23 GMT
Obviously of a very different idea, but I'm quite surprised that there hasn't been a lot of discussion in regards to Springtime For Hitler from The Producers. That's a little different, in that the issue is with symbols rather than with a race. The argument - and I think it still holds up - is that the show doesn't glorify symbols of fascism, it takes the power away from them by mocking them to the point where they look absurd.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 23:53:56 GMT
On a funnier note why don't we get some of today's more sensitive souls to watch an episode or two of Love Thy Neighbour we'd have Snowflakes watching Snowflake.
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Post by talkingheads on Jul 7, 2020 14:35:46 GMT
Halle Berry has apologised and will no longer be playing a trans character:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 13:01:03 GMT
Halle Berry has apologised and will no longer be playing a trans character: Does this mean that other parts will be bolted down or would it only apply to certain roles like trans or disabled ones for example? On a positive note Neighbours have a trans character who is played by a real life actress who has transitioned called Georgie Stone and they are featuring her considering when to have her final opp. Apparently Georgie pitched the idea to the show's producers for a trans character and landed the role herself. But would such a well loved character such as Hayley superbly portrayed by the excellent Julie Hesmondhaigh in Corrie now be thought that it should be played by a trans actress?
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Post by cjamess on Jul 8, 2020 13:08:29 GMT
I must admit on the argument, I think if a character is disabled/trans you should have a disabled/trans actor for the whole (as they hardly get seen and utilised anyways). Similarly you shouldn't have a Jonathan Pryce Miss Saigon moment either (although the 90's were a different time).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 13:14:53 GMT
BOM is out to offend everyone. Every person on that stage is a stereotype. Its not singleing any out. Everything that is referenced is based in fact. The line about God changing his mind avout black people was because Mormons wouldnt allow black clergy. Why is that problematic? Xandy - can i ask why your friend deeply regretted being in the show? And I think this is the main reason people are getting upset about some shows being taken off TV, Little Britain & Come Fly With Me especially. (I haven't seen Little Britain, so won't comment on it). The blackface from Matt Lucas in CFWM is of course questionable, but, again, the show pokes fun at everybody and doesn't single people out. I was reading an article the other day that made a good point in saying that had they have not featured a character of colour, people would have accused the show of being racist. An interesting point of discussion. When CFWM was on I can remember thinking that Matt playing an Asian guy who was trying to be ghetto was very dodgy but I had Asian work colleagues who thought that was the best character as it reminded them of a younger colleague who tried to act a bit ghetto and he was christened Taaj by them. The Jamaican character Precious was much more of a racial caricature and was at best on very dodgy ground.
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Post by basdfg on Jul 8, 2020 13:17:45 GMT
I must admit on the argument, I think if a character is disabled/trans you should have a disabled/trans actor for the whole (as they hardly get seen and utilised anyways). Similarly you shouldn't have a Jonathan Pryce Miss Saigon moment either (although the 90's were a different time). One issue through is it can limit the talent pool available for a role meaning high quality productions featuring trans or disabled characters remain rare due limited amount of suitable actors available.
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