4,458 posts
|
Post by poster J on Jun 30, 2020 7:43:27 GMT
Looking at the US who have done a similar opening to ours, which we are doing this coming Saturday. The consequences of opening too soon is laid bare in the southern states, with Covid infection rates gone through the roof. The opening was supported by Donald Trump and his state governors, is there a general election looming anytime soon? They put wealth before health and didn’t listen to the science (Dr Anthony Fauci.) We will go the same way, where the “R” rate will go through the roof and we have to lockdown again. Do you have a crystal ball? Otherwise what is the need for the doom and gloom? No wonder so many people are getting fed up and ignoring lockdown if people are telling them that effectively we're going to be in some form of lockdown until there is a vaccine. We are not the US, many places in the US opened up much more rapidly and social distancing is basically non-existent in large swathes of the population, much more than it is here. Life is depressing enough without pervasive paranoia and insistence that we stay locked down to avoid a few more people getting the disease. That was never the point, the point was only to ensure the disease remained at a level where the NHS could cope. And it did and it has. So open up we must, because the negative impacts on the economy and people's lives from the lockdown and things other than coronavirus are quickly going to overtake the virus itself, if they haven't already. If you don't want to go outside until there is a cure then that's your prerogative, but on so many levels that just isn't realistic or an option for the vast majority of people. Life is more than coronavirus and it has to move on, with appropriate precautions such as masks and hand cleanliness.
|
|
|
Post by talkingheads on Jun 30, 2020 8:20:05 GMT
Looking at the US who have done a similar opening to ours, which we are doing this coming Saturday. The consequences of opening too soon is laid bare in the southern states, with Covid infection rates gone through the roof. The opening was supported by Donald Trump and his state governors, is there a general election looming anytime soon? They put wealth before health and didn’t listen to the science (Dr Anthony Fauci.) We will go the same way, where the “R” rate will go through the roof and we have to lockdown again. If you don't want to go outside until there is a cure then that's your prerogative, but on so many levels that just isn't realistic or an option for the vast majority of people. Life is more than coronavirus and it has to move on, with appropriate precautions such as masks and hand cleanliness. I would argue that actually at the moment life isn't more than coronavirus. This is not something you can just say 'Well it's been three months, it's probably OK to go out". Nothing has changed since we went into lockdown. The virus is still rampant, as proved by Leicester going back into lockdown. Survival is more important than 'getting on with life' at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by xanady on Jun 30, 2020 8:47:29 GMT
The Heartless Dodger(Boris) visiting Dudley in West Midlands today to announce yet another great plan/review/strategy/new deal/smoke-screen or some other waffle that will never happen in reality. Wonder if anyone will mention to him that Dudley with a population of 321,000 has the same number of Covid deaths as South Korea with a population of 51 MILLION?
|
|
4,458 posts
|
Post by poster J on Jun 30, 2020 10:00:56 GMT
If you don't want to go outside until there is a cure then that's your prerogative, but on so many levels that just isn't realistic or an option for the vast majority of people. Life is more than coronavirus and it has to move on, with appropriate precautions such as masks and hand cleanliness. I would argue that actually at the moment life isn't more than coronavirus. This is not something you can just say 'Well it's been three months, it's probably OK to go out". Nothing has changed since we went into lockdown. The virus is still rampant, as proved by Leicester going back into lockdown. Survival is more important than 'getting on with life' at the moment. Ok, so will you pay for everyone to stay at home and do nothing until there is a cure or a vaccine then? I suspect not, so no, life is not just the virus, it can't be. Anyone who sees this is a binary distinction between the virus and everything else is living in a dreamland, because that is not how sustaining an economy so that people can live works. Life has to move on, we have to adapt to live with the virus rather than let it consume our lives entirely as some people on here seem determined to do. I could understand that attitude as a temporary measure when there were hundreds of deaths and thousands of new infections a day and the NHS was close to breaking, but that isn't the case now. What is close to breaking is the economy, people's livelihoods and ability to stay out of poverty, people's health in relation to other illnesses (how many excess deaths from otherwise treatable cancers will there be in the next few years because treatment has been delayed?) and people's mental health. None of those are less important than coronavirus, especially given the virus is now causing so few infections and deaths per day. All deaths are too many, deaths from coronavirus are not the only ones that matter. If some people want to hide away forever until this virus no longer exists, that is their prerogative, but there is no reason for the rest of us to do anything more than wear a mask, wash our hands and shopping and social distance where we can. There will inevitably be infection spikes, as there are with the flu every year, but they have to be taken as they come while otherwise life goes on, or there won't be much life to keep going by the time a vaccine or cure is found. It's all about perspective and proportionality, and there is an increasing lack of wider perspective in the argument to keep locked down.
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 30, 2020 10:24:50 GMT
As of this coming Saturday you can... up to a point:
Whether or not you should is a different question. We locked down too late, we have had one of the highest per-capita death tolls in the world, and we are opening up sooner, in terms of where the rate of daily infections is, than some other countries have done. The government guidelines indicate changes to who you may meet, and where, but they explicitly do not signify an end to social distancing. I'm not saying don't, but I would suggest caution - and perhaps caution over and above what that government website is suggesting.
We didn't lock down late except with tons of hindsight - the scientists told us to lock down at what they though was the same stage Italy did - because they thought we were weeks behind Italy. No. Plenty of people knew that we were not locking down early enough. In healthcare and beyond. Those who didn't want to (in SAGE, in government and the public) now must bear the guilt of that. Plenty of us had foresight (even in the general public, as seen on here, although the thread has been deleted from that time).
|
|
724 posts
|
Post by basdfg on Jun 30, 2020 10:46:08 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 10:47:42 GMT
If you don't want to go outside until there is a cure then that's your prerogative, but on so many levels that just isn't realistic or an option for the vast majority of people. Life is more than coronavirus and it has to move on, with appropriate precautions such as masks and hand cleanliness. I would argue that actually at the moment life isn't more than coronavirus. This is not something you can just say 'Well it's been three months, it's probably OK to go out". Nothing has changed since we went into lockdown. The virus is still rampant, as proved by Leicester going back into lockdown. Survival is more important than 'getting on with life' at the moment. I think if you had cancer that needed ongoing treatment to prolong your life, you'd probably disagree. The leading cancer clinicians and researchers where I work are united in believing that over the medium term more people will die of cancer because of Covid than will actually die of Covid.
|
|
1,912 posts
|
Post by sf on Jun 30, 2020 10:55:47 GMT
We didn't lock down late except with tons of hindsight - the scientists told us to lock down at what they though was the same stage Italy did - because they thought we were weeks behind Italy. No. Plenty of people knew that we were not locking down early enough. In healthcare and beyond. Those who didn't want to (in SAGE, in government and the public) now must bear the guilt of that. Plenty of us had foresight (even in the general public, as seen on here, although the thread has been deleted from that time). Exactly. See, for example, this:
It is a fact, unfortunately, that thousands - maybe tens of thousands - of people have died because of political choices made by this government. They may claim - they do claim, unconvincingly - that they've been led by the science at every step, but it's transparently obvious they haven't.
|
|
724 posts
|
Post by basdfg on Jun 30, 2020 13:56:34 GMT
Easyjet think it won't be till 2023 until 2019 passenger numbers are reached again - of course very hard for any company to predict the future at the moment.
|
|
3,940 posts
|
Post by Dawnstar on Jun 30, 2020 17:17:44 GMT
The same problem remains now - if you want to stop it, you need to both stamp out regional outbreaks, and stop it returning here from outside our borders - where much of the rest the world is still having exponential growth or major re-outbreaks . If you wanted to stop it in March, you needed to close the borders - like Australia , Singapore, Taiwan and New Zealand - and abandon our brits abroad to their fate. No one argued for that. I did! If I was in charge of the country I would have closed the UK's borders as soon as we heard about the virus really getting going in China back in January. Mind you, I would have done Brexit by the day after the Referendum closing the UK's borders, blocking up the Channel Tunnel & sending a message to Brussels by carrier pigeon saying "That's it. We've left. Bye."
|
|
5,599 posts
|
Post by lynette on Jun 30, 2020 18:44:45 GMT
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you weren’t the only one, dawnstar. But I would have allowed Brtis back in to go home. Until it became obvious that it was gonna get very bad.
|
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 30, 2020 19:36:29 GMT
Looking at the US who have done a similar opening to ours, which we are doing this coming Saturday. The consequences of opening too soon is laid bare in the southern states, with Covid infection rates gone through the roof. The opening was supported by Donald Trump and his state governors, is there a general election looming anytime soon? They put wealth before health and didn’t listen to the science (Dr Anthony Fauci.) We will go the same way, where the “R” rate will go through the roof and we have to lockdown again. Do you have a crystal ball? Otherwise what is the need for the doom and gloom? No wonder so many people are getting fed up and ignoring lockdown if people are telling them that effectively we're going to be in some form of lockdown until there is a vaccine. We are not the US, many places in the US opened up much more rapidly and social distancing is basically non-existent in large swathes of the population, much more than it is here. Life is depressing enough without pervasive paranoia and insistence that we stay locked down to avoid a few more people getting the disease. That was never the point, the point was only to ensure the disease remained at a level where the NHS could cope. And it did and it has. So open up we must, because the negative impacts on the economy and people's lives from the lockdown and things other than coronavirus are quickly going to overtake the virus itself, if they haven't already. If you don't want to go outside until there is a cure then that's your prerogative, but on so many levels that just isn't realistic or an option for the vast majority of people. Life is more than coronavirus and it has to move on, with appropriate precautions such as masks and hand cleanliness. We locked down too late, this is agreed on by some right wing commentators now. We are also dealing with a virus that is very infectious, deadly and spreaders do not show any signs when they are spreading the virus, a perfect storm. I did say earlier in this thread that masks enhance out economic freedom, they don’t curtail it and sustain our economic freedom, however with freedom comes responsibility and the public have generally been irresponsible by not wearing masks. I have never advocated staying locked down either, but merely observing what I see in the environment around me. So therefore the public being irresponsible will lead to another shutdown, the NHS getting overwhelmed and theatre taking longer to open. I don’t have a crystal ball, you are correct. I see when I am out, that people are not social distancing, (look at Bournemouth Beach, BLM protests and Liverpool Anfield celebrations etc.) With restaurants, hairdressers and pubs set to open on Saturday the “R” will go up again, this will be exasperated when people start to stay inside when the weather becomes cooler and the new flu season happens in 3-6 months or so. So looking at the US where the “R” rate has gone through the roof and we are following a similar orientation with our re-openings, in some cases the US has been more responsible than us and have insisted that masks are worn in all public areas, including shops. So I am not being neither pervasive and paranoid. Do I recall earlier in this thread or a similar thread, you were very wax lyrical about theatres shutting down? I want to go back to the theatre, albeit one that is Covid secure for the audience and performers.
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 30, 2020 20:20:42 GMT
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you weren’t the only one, dawnstar. But I would have allowed Brtis back in to go home. Until it became obvious that it was gonna get very bad. Brexit or covid-19?
|
|
1,912 posts
|
Post by sf on Jun 30, 2020 20:28:02 GMT
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you weren’t the only one, dawnstar. But I would have allowed Brtis back in to go home. Until it became obvious that it was gonna get very bad. Even once it became obvious that it was going to get very bad, it would have been legally very difficult for a country to close its borders to its own returning citizens. It would, though, have been possible to impose a two-week quarantine on returning citizens. Some countries did this.
|
|
4,458 posts
|
Post by poster J on Jun 30, 2020 21:18:56 GMT
Do I recall earlier in this thread or a similar thread, you were very wax lyrical about theatres shutting down? I don't understand what you mean by this sentence at all, nor what thread you are referring to. Please explain.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 21:25:33 GMT
The UK got it wrong. It’s as simple as that. The world was shutting down and we were announcing plans for herd immunity. Boris has played the game of politics over the last few months but his original game plan - to let us catch Covid-19 - is still very much in play.
Lockdown was always about the NHS and ensuring anyone who needed medical assistance would be able to get it. If the NHS had been unable to truly support anyone who needed help... I dread to think what kind of mess we’d be in as a country now if the NHS had to admit it couldn’t offer aid to everyone.
So sadly I don’t think lockdown was ever primarily about saving lives - it was a political act to ensure this wasn’t the government that finally broke the NHS. It’s very easy to forget the government changed its mind about herd immunity in a matter of days after public scrutiny and the world basically saying ‘WTF?’.
I’m not saying Lockdown was the wrong thing to do - far from it - but everything the government did feels like PR. Look at the Nightingale hospitals that were barely used (thankfully) - were we lucky or were they just part of the political PR machine? (as other countries were doing something similar).
Then of course there’s the fact that a lot of people feel we have come out of lockdown too early (or at least that’s the impression I get anyway). I get that the government can’t support everyone financially until there’s a cure, so I understand that people have to get back out there and return to work. But has the government managed it right?
Sadly I accept the economy cannot stop and I fear the latest news from EasyJet is the start of a bad things to come. But note the subtle message of ‘we are where we are’ starting to come out now - and trust me, they won’t be so quiet when it comes to the theatre industry when it’s still not back up and running in 6 months. The arts is always the biggest casualty in times of trouble.
Boris, the Government and those scientists will have a lot of face up to once this is over. No doubt the government will put a positive spin on it all but there’s already loud whispers that we started lockdown too late and we could have prevented a lot of deaths.
The inevitable inquiry once this is all over will be interesting, to say the least.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 21:53:05 GMT
Vigilance is dissipating quickly in many part of the US. Almost daily I see people who wear masks, but touch all parts of it with their hand and then in turn, touch parts of their face. Months ago "don't touch your face" was a mainstay message. Now it is no longer proffered and people can't be bothered apparently.
|
|
1,912 posts
|
Post by sf on Jul 1, 2020 14:42:53 GMT
This amuses me. It's apparently a bagel shop somewhere on the north side of Chicago:
|
|
4,608 posts
|
Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 1, 2020 16:35:18 GMT
How about people with various health conditions who can't wear a mask?
|
|
1,912 posts
|
Post by sf on Jul 1, 2020 16:47:40 GMT
How about people with various health conditions who can't wear a mask? What about them?
|
|
7,580 posts
|
Post by alece10 on Jul 1, 2020 17:03:39 GMT
After travelling on public transport every day since face masks became mandatory I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of people not wearing them (for which every day there are more and more) are young people under 30. I presume they think they are immune due to their age. They don't seem to realise that the mask is to protect others and not themselves. Pure selfishness.
|
|
4,608 posts
|
Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 1, 2020 17:32:48 GMT
How about people with various health conditions who can't wear a mask? What about them?
Apparently various forms of asthma. This is one diagnosis I noticed on a list sent round by the health Trust I work with. I support multiple people who are diagnosed with autism and learning disabilities and for some a mask would be too traumatic to wear - for those I have ensured they have an exemption certificate.
|
|
1,912 posts
|
Post by sf on Jul 1, 2020 17:44:10 GMT
Apparently various forms of asthma. I support multiple people who are diagnosed with autism and learning disabilities and for some of them a mask would be too traumatic to wear - for those I have ensured they have an exemption certificate. And that's fair enough. I would bet actual money, though, that the VAST majority of people who don't bother to wear a mask have no medical impediment preventing them from doing so, even if they claim they do. Even respiratory illnesses. I was my mother's primary caregiver through her recovery from the worst imaginable case of pneumonia - as in six weeks in hospital during which she almost died, including a few days on a ventilator, then four weeks in a care facility, eight months after that to regain some semblance of independence, a year until she was 'better', and significantly diminished health, including lung capacity, as a result, which is one of the reasons the cancer she was diagnosed with last year turned out not to be treatable - and even with the problems she faced, which were significant and life-changing, a washable cloth/disposable paper mask would not have posed a problem for her. The kind of mask with an inbuilt filter, maybe, but those aren't the only option, and they aren't what doctors are recommending the public wear to protect themselves and each other in public.
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jul 1, 2020 17:59:11 GMT
There are a small number of people who would find difficulty wearing a mask, the vast majority of whom will be known to their GP/carer/therapist etc. A simple exemption photocard would be all that is needed to sort them out from the selfish chancers who are going around spewing all sorts of disinfomation.
Apparently they believe they cause hypertension, hypercarbia, hypoxemia, pleurisy and any other medical term they don’t understand but seems to fit their prejudice, The anti masker and anti vaxxer Venn diagram appears to overlap greatly, unsurprisingky. A lot of the dangerously gullible conspiracy theory crowd in the main added to by the crazed libertarians (Alex Jones et al) who believe it infringes their freedom to kill other people or something.
|
|
4,608 posts
|
Post by Someone in a tree on Jul 1, 2020 18:26:15 GMT
There are a small number of people who would find difficulty wearing a mask, the vast majority of whom will be known to their GP/carer/therapist etc. A simple exemption photocard would be all that is needed to sort them out from the selfish chancers who are going around spewing all sorts of disinfomation. Apparently they believe they cause hypertension, hypercarbia, hypoxemia, pleurisy and any other medical term they don’t understand but seems to fit their prejudice, The anti masker and anti vaxxer Venn diagram appears to overlap greatly, unsurprisingky. A lot of the dangerously gullible conspiracy theory crowd in the main added to by the crazed libertarians (Alex Jones et al) who believe it infringes their freedom to kill other people or something. Absolutely. On my train it appears to be under 25's and builders who aren't wearing them. I hate wearing them but I do. I'm not very good with jewelery, accessories and last year I had lazor eye surgery to stop pesky spectacle wearing... But I wear a mask. I am now on my third design, it's from a colleague in the police and its almost comfy!
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jul 1, 2020 18:30:18 GMT
A useful set of graphs showing the above.
|
|
306 posts
|
Post by MrBraithwaite on Jul 2, 2020 6:08:25 GMT
How about people with various health conditions who can't wear a mask? And even here in Germany, where masks are mandatory and basically everyone wears them - for everyone with real health problems, who can't wear one, you have one, who thinks they are better than everyone else and invincible and bugger their GP, until they get a certificate. People are selfish.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 6:34:32 GMT
One silver lining from wearing masks so much is that it has reoriented my breathing to be more intentional, particularly exhaling. A slower exhale keep from steaming up the mask (or my glasses if I'm wearing them instead of contacts) and almost feels a bit contemplative by design.
|
|
724 posts
|
Post by basdfg on Jul 2, 2020 9:00:55 GMT
|
|
|
Post by talkingheads on Jul 2, 2020 9:50:49 GMT
Well that is absolute hogwash. The public are led by the Government. The same Government who yesterday sent out a tweet saying 'Pubs are open. Raise a glass'.
|
|