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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 18:38:44 GMT
Actually I think you’ll find most northerners probably want Brexit more than they do the Labour Party. Labour refused to deliver on it and it’s cost them dearly. For northerners to elect a Tory is almost unheard of - some of the seats they won yesterday they’ve never held, and a number of them they haven’t had for decades (going back almost a century in some places). Thatcher still isn’t forgiven up there and that’s a grudge that will last a life time. But Labour seen as a London based party? Never. I mean even Blair had a northern constituency! The Conservatives are synonymous with Westminster and Eton, worlds apart from us northern folk. Blair was many things but never ‘northern’! I just watched Yorkshire local news, which I don’t usually, and the idea of Labour being London based is very, very widespread. Maybe it’s a synonym for ‘out of touch’ for some but, after Miliband and Corbyn a non London or Southern leader is a necessity now. Starmer, Thornberry etc. would be a bad idea.
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Post by Jon on Dec 13, 2019 18:47:54 GMT
Blair was many things but never ‘northern’! I just watched Yorkshire local news, which I don’t usually, and the idea of Labour being London based is very, very widespread. Maybe it’s a synonym for ‘out of touch’ for some but, after Miliband and Corbyn a non London or Southern leader is a necessity now. Starmer, Thornberry etc. would be a bad idea. Given the pressure to have a female Labour leader, my money's on Angela Rayner, Rebecca Long-Bailey or Lisa Nandy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2019 19:04:49 GMT
They are allowed to choose and most of them choose to wear the burka of the own free will. The whole point of the article was that Denmark at that time was legislating against the burqa - thereby denying women the choice. Johnson was arguing for middle ground - yes, there may be situations where people might want/expect/need to see a person’s face, and in those situations we should be free to request it (though no need for the woman to comply). But otherwise it was a Muslim woman’s right to choose to wear what she wants.
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Post by peelee on Dec 13, 2019 19:54:02 GMT
Kensington went Liberal Democrat, I see. Those tactical voting advisors/Lib Dems who used it at the opening of the general election campaign as an example of what was likely — see upthread where I explained unlikelihood based on actual local knowledge — certainly deserve a footnote in the eventual write-up of the 2019 General Election.
At about the same time a leaflet dropped through our door informing us that (never-seen-before-around-here) Sam Gyimah, recent Conservative Party leadership candidate, would become our Liberal Democrat MP, followed a day later by another missive with about seven snaps of Jo Swinson on four sides declaring that she intended to be our next Prime Minister. They worked as leaflets in grabbing our attention, as we read and re-read them with incredulity. All for free, they were; we'd have to have paid money for this sort of thing in London's West End.
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Post by olliebean on Dec 13, 2019 20:06:10 GMT
They are allowed to choose and most of them choose to wear the burka of the own free will. The whole point of the article was that Denmark at that time was legislating against the burqa - thereby denying women the choice. Johnson was arguing for middle ground - yes, there may be situations where people might want/expect/need to see a person’s face, and in those situations we should be free to request it (though no need for the woman to comply). But otherwise it was a Muslim woman’s right to choose to wear what she wants. And it would have been perfectly possible to make that point without the insulting comparisons to bank robbers and letterboxes.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 13, 2019 20:06:15 GMT
it's an unfair system whoever wins. I think there's only ever been one occasion when a majority party in Parliament had a majority share of the vote, way back in 1931 - and even then, the Tories got 76% of the seats with only 55% of the votes. It's bizarre. There is a huge disconnect between how they do this and how they treat seats in parliament. This should change. Parliament should be formed on how people actually voted and not be formed based on a minority vote.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 20:21:15 GMT
Kensington went Liberal Democrat, I see. Those tactical voting advisors/Lib Dems who used it at the opening of the general election campaign as an example of what was likely — see upthread where I explained unlikelihood based on actual local knowledge — certainly deserve a footnote in the eventual write-up of the 2019 General Election. At about the same time a leaflet dropped through our door informing us that (never-seen-before-around-here) Sam Gyimah, recent Conservative Party leadership candidate, would become our Liberal Democrat MP, followed a day later by another missive with about seven snaps of Jo Swinson on four sides declaring that she intended to be our next Prime Minister. They worked as leaflets in grabbing our attention, as we read and re-read them with incredulity. All for free, they were; we'd have to have paid money for this sort of thing in London's West End. This needs putting to bed, the tactical vote comparison site for Kensington, shows three saying vote Labour and two Lib Dem. Labour finished second and lost. The same comparison site showed three saying Lib Dems were best placed in Cities of London and Westminster and two saying Labour. Lib Dems finished second and lost. The moral, DYOR. All parties will take the positives (and, to be honest, at the time of that first leaflet, they were probably accurate). If everyone had looked at the overview then maybe there would be another Lib Dem and Labour MP each instead of two Conservatives. Better still, use a PR system and we can get rid of this tactical voting nonsense.
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 20:25:29 GMT
Kensington went Liberal Democrat, I see. No it didn't, it went Conservative x
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 21:33:38 GMT
Kensington went Liberal Democrat, I see. No it didn't, it went Conservative x So...all the 'tactical voting' sites said to vote Lib Dem in Kensington and yet Labour lost by a mere 150 votes in the end.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 21:51:31 GMT
No it didn't, it went Conservative x So...all the 'tactical voting' sites said to vote Lib Dem in Kensington and yet Labour lost by a mere 150 votes in the end. No. As already posted. "This needs putting to bed, the tactical vote comparison site for Kensington, shows three saying vote Labour and two Lib Dem. Labour finished second and lost."
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 21:54:48 GMT
So...all the 'tactical voting' sites said to vote Lib Dem in Kensington and yet Labour lost by a mere 150 votes in the end. No. As already posted. "This needs putting to bed, the tactical vote comparison site for Kensington, shows three saying vote Labour and two Lib Dem. Labour finished second and lost." Still...
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 13, 2019 21:57:14 GMT
I don't think that is quite true. I immediately thought the same I will admit. Johnson for (at least) ten years does feel abhorrent. But I think the Labour party could win back lots of the seats lost in the Midlands and North East in particular. Don't think they won a seat with a referendum result of vote Leave >55%. But they lost seats votes predominantly to the Brexit party, with small percentages to Tory, Lib Dem and SNP. These votes could be up for grabs again at the next election. We will have to see who takes over the Labour Party and the state of the UK after five more years of Boris. Five years could seem a very long time in some of the poorest constituencies in the country if some of the Brexit warnings come true. Think I heard a stat that the Tory vote only went up 1.42% with massive swings to their party. So there could be lots to play for at the next election. Have to see where we are in five years time. In 2005 Labour got 355 seats and the Tories 198 and in 2010 Labour were out of power so in 5 years time we could see a change of government. I had said in the run up to yesterday that whoever won this time, the other major party was likely to win next time. For Labour now to get a majority next time would be hard but they got 40% only 2 years ago so votes are there. The key is the tight leader. Sir Kier Starmer is probably the sharpest guy in their top team but would the unions back a Sir and a QC type guy. They might go for a younger person if they will have 5 years to grow in opposition. This is where the loss of people of Chuka's quality is a huge blow to Labour.
Could they even reach out to David Miliband to return? He is still only 54 years old but would he want to return to frontline politics given he has a very well paid job in NY. For f***s sake I'll be honest. I was going to highlight the Kier Starmer bit to FFS but then saw the Chuka bit. Couldn't be bothered to unbold to FFS the Miliband sentence. I'll be honest, what a shocking post
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 21:58:25 GMT
No. As already posted. "This needs putting to bed, the tactical vote comparison site for Kensington, shows three saying vote Labour and two Lib Dem. Labour finished second and lost." Still... Still what? Maybe it would be more useful to wonder why, in scores of seats in the north, midlands and Wales (rather than a couple in London), why Labour did so badly where there was no significant Lib Dem vote. Look elsewhere to find out why this disaster happened.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 13, 2019 21:59:49 GMT
The irony is not lost, the most centrist party were well beaten yesterday, unable to be openly remain or leave as not offend, only the centre was left and that was rightly seen as having no opinion at all. This should be seen as a warning as the centre can be perceived as a safe place from which it is difficult to build engagement and momentum as the policies can be considered anodyne and at its worst could be seen as having no no ideas. For me the following would be my preferred direction. The first part is for Labour is to move to be an openly Europhile Party to continue the engagement of the young voters who will naturally become more influential over the next few years, we may have left the EU but we are all Europeans and Europe will continue to be our biggest partner and influencer. The next phase is to build on the socialist green deal policies of the manifesto and make this the core from which all policies build on, of which nationalisation of rail, energy and water can be a central tenet along with house building and making our current homes more energy efficient. This should not be too difficult as Greenpeace ranked the Labour manifesto higher than the Greens. The welfare state and NHS are / should be a given and the imagery of Labour should subliminally include this in some way. These two pillars along with the subliminal Party of welfare will be a key differentiator and done well could remove the bad smell of socialism and replace it with a sweeter smell of socioenvironmentalism or some such, only hopefully more catchy tag line. This for me would build a new identity for the Party and build the foundation and vision for all or futures. Behave fella. You are Chuka. I know you are
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 22:16:10 GMT
Still what? Maybe it would be more useful to wonder why, in scores of seats in the north, midlands and Wales (rather than a couple in London), why Labour did so badly where there was no significant Lib Dem vote. Look elsewhere to find out why this disaster happened. We know why it happened...Brexit x
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 22:25:42 GMT
Still what? Maybe it would be more useful to wonder why, in scores of seats in the north, midlands and Wales (rather than a couple in London), why Labour did so badly where there was no significant Lib Dem vote. Look elsewhere to find out why this disaster happened. We know why it happened...Brexit x So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! Corbyn and the Momentumites destroyed Labour, if you don't learn that then Labour is dead as a party from now on.
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 22:33:25 GMT
We know why it happened...Brexit x So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work...
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 22:36:43 GMT
So why did polling show that Boris Johnson of all people seen as more trustworthy on the NHS of all things?! I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work... QED
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 22:38:09 GMT
I wouldn't even want to try and work out how these peoples minds work... QED ?
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 13, 2019 22:59:07 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was.
Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public.
Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed.
Unless
Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him.
The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Dec 13, 2019 23:00:04 GMT
The problem comes down to an unwillingness to listen and understand. You just confirmed that.
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Post by intoanewlife on Dec 13, 2019 23:14:35 GMT
The problem comes down to an unwillingness to listen and understand. You just confirmed that. Wait...how did this all become my fault?
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 13, 2019 23:21:26 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was. Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public. Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed. Unless Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him. The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum. Right wing press will do a number on every Labour leader, that one isn't going away.
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Post by firefingers on Dec 13, 2019 23:25:42 GMT
Only way to solve Labour's leader being torn apart: have an interim one until 6 months before election, then tap out and be replaced by a mystery unknown. The less time the papers have to dismantle their leader the better.
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Post by Phantom of London on Dec 14, 2019 0:21:36 GMT
The Liberals had a shocking election, Jo Swinson campaign was worse than Theresa Mays. I had no clue what their message was. Jeremy Corbyn was a necessary evil, labour had to go through as I said in an earlier post new labour came toxic in 2008, with the crash and Iraq. Maybe they can elect a leader halfway between Corbyn and Blair. That will appeal to the public. Okay Brexit won’t be an issue at the next election, if the economy does well then no ones is going to stick that in their manifesto. Labour doesn’t have to convince voters on Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn, 2 big albatrosses removed. Unless Boris doesn’t deliver on Brexit, that will be fatal for him. The economy tanks, worse than Europe, an argument can be had for another referendum. Right wing press will do a number on every Labour leader, that one isn't going away. I kind of agree, but they report the bile they receive from 55 Tufton Street. Their funding is less than transparent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 0:53:15 GMT
In 2005 Labour got 355 seats and the Tories 198 and in 2010 Labour were out of power so in 5 years time we could see a change of government. I had said in the run up to yesterday that whoever won this time, the other major party was likely to win next time. For Labour now to get a majority next time would be hard but they got 40% only 2 years ago so votes are there. The key is the tight leader. Sir Kier Starmer is probably the sharpest guy in their top team but would the unions back a Sir and a QC type guy. They might go for a younger person if they will have 5 years to grow in opposition. This is where the loss of people of Chuka's quality is a huge blow to Labour. Could they even reach out to David Miliband to return? He is still only 54 years old but would he want to return to frontline politics given he has a very well paid job in NY. There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again. Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 0:54:10 GMT
The last paragraph is a joke. Neither lady is ugly but they are called the Ugly Sisters in panto. Some places call them wicked Stepsisters when they are played by females. There was a similar joke about the House of York offering themselves up as a Panto Package as Baron Hardup, the Wicked Stepmother and the Ugly Sisters. Gosh with "jokes" like that you could write a Telegraph column. Never really read the Telegraph apart from it's cricket coverage.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2019 1:02:30 GMT
Labour proved that they could win with new Labour under Blair and might well have won in 1992 but the voters didn't trust Neil Kinnock - remember the Oggy Oggy Oggy speech which might have even cost them that election. In hindsight with Black Wednesday following a few months later, staying out of power did them more good.
There are all those former Lib Dem voters too which a more centrist Labour Party would have a good chance of wooing but with a very left leaning Party Membership it will be hard for them to choose a leader of that mindset as the Corbyn inner circle would have enough MPs to get someone of their line of thinking on the ballot paper in any leadership election.
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Post by Dave25 on Dec 14, 2019 10:26:24 GMT
Actually, the majority of votes was against the Conservatives. The seat system is flawed. We now have an outcome that a minority wanted. So it's the seat system and the real public opinion that clashes. This was a final spasm of a disappearing generation. Change will come.
Yes, I'm still bitter. Working on it.
Next step. Release the IC report into Russian interference. And a decision on the investigation on Johnson and Arcuri and bribery allegations looked into. If referendum is declared invalid, what will the conservative minority have voted for? Brexit and Government are still 2 very different things.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Dec 14, 2019 11:44:05 GMT
There is also a fair chance that the left will refuse to cede power. In such a case, what would the centrist MPs do? I doubt they will just wait it out yet again. Several including people of the quality of Chuka jumped ship to the Liberal Democrats or the Soubry party but they all lost their seats or weren't elected, so would starting a new party from scratch even be an option. Plus they would be seen as playing musical chairs with their parties and any further split in Labour would hand the Tories an even stronger chance to stay in power when you also have to factor in that the Brexit Party won't be around in it's current form in the future. Maybe a David Miliband type character is the sort of person who would have the clout and gravitas to form a new party otherwise you are getting into the Tony Blair type figure territory or they ask Mr Farage to suddenly swerve left. You are going to have to enlighten me?
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