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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 16:14:03 GMT
Have we honestly taken 178 pages to come to the conclusion that maybe, theatre is actually subjective?
You wouldn't be human if you didn't form an opinion when you saw a show, or saw the same show with multiple different performers playing one role, but that doesn't make what you think the "definitive truth".
In my opinion, Rachel is a fantastic and nuanced actress who gives a complex and multi-layered portrayal of Elphaba, formed from 4 years of experience playing the role across two continents. Also in my opinion, I find her a bit overly aggressive for the sake of it at times and I think her pronunciation of certain lines is slightly unnatural as clearly the meaning has been lost over the 1000+ shows. Nothing I have said in this paragraph, is correct, or indeed incorrect, you would be welcome to put a "not" in front of everything to express exactly the opposite to what I think, and you too would be equally valid in your thoughts.
There is often a myth that there's a general consensus about who is good and who isn't, but that too means nothing, my favourite Elphaba is Ashleigh Gray and I know several people that would tell you she's a vocal damaged, broadly average, disproportionately popular standby who should never have been allowed near a lead role. Conversely, I'd say the same about Nikki Davis-Jones, but I know that she is several people's favourite. Being overrated is a vague and indefinable concept, and is too often used as a way of saying, "you might like them, but I don't".
Everyone's thoughts are valid, but this nonsense about "so and so can't act" and "this person can't sing" is just stupid. I know we joke about cast members sleeping with casting producers, but that doesn't actually happen - at least not in Wicked - maybe in Kenwright tours *cough* Sarah Harding *cough*. Everyone who is cast in any role is done so because they are judged to be able to play that role, and of the 17 Elphabas I have seen, even my least favourite was still unmistakably adequate at what they do - and again, it's only my opinion that they were only "adequate" and not mindblowing from start to finish.
Rachel can act, Emma can sing, Alice can growl, Jodie can belt, Cassidy Janson can switch from Defying Gravity into Natural Woman mid-sentence and hold an end note for longer than the entire run of I Can't Sing (okay, I made that last one up). Let us not dwell on how miscast we think perfectly well cast people are, and instead on why we like the performers we do.
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Post by tr252 on Dec 27, 2016 16:26:59 GMT
Have we honestly taken 178 pages to come to the conclusion that maybe, theatre is actually subjective? You wouldn't be human if you didn't form an opinion when you saw a show, or saw the same show with multiple different performers playing one role, but that doesn't make what you think the "definitive truth". In my opinion, Rachel is a fantastic and nuanced actress who gives a complex and multi-layered portrayal of Elphaba, formed from 4 years of experience playing the role across two continents. Also in my opinion, I find her a bit overly aggressive for the sake of it at times and I think her pronunciation of certain lines is slightly unnatural as clearly the meaning has been lost over the 1000+ shows. Nothing I have said in this paragraph, is correct, or indeed incorrect, you would be welcome to put a "not" in front of everything to express exactly the opposite to what I think, and you too would be equally valid in your thoughts. There is often a myth that there's a general consensus about who is good and who isn't, but that too means nothing, my favourite Elphaba is Ashleigh Gray and I know several people that would tell you she's a vocal damaged, broadly average, disproportionately popular standby who should never have been allowed near a lead role. Conversely, I'd say the same about Nikki Davis-Jones, but I know that she is several people's favourite. Being overrated is a vague and indefinable concept, and is too often used as a way of saying, "you might like them, but I don't". Everyone's thoughts are valid, but this nonsense about "so and so can't act" and "this person can't sing" is just stupid. I know we joke about cast members sleeping with casting producers, but that doesn't actually happen - at least not in Wicked - maybe in Kenwright tours *cough* Sarah Harding *cough*. Everyone who is cast in any role is done so because they are judged to be able to play that role, and of the 17 Elphabas I have seen, even my least favourite was still unmistakably adequate at what they do - and again, it's only my opinion that they were only "adequate" and not mindblowing from start to finish. Rachel can act, Emma can sing, Alice can growl, Jodie can belt, Cassidy Janson can switch from Defying Gravity into Natural Woman mid-sentence and hold an end note for longer than the entire run of I Can't Sing (okay, I made that last one up). Let us not dwell on how miscast we think perfectly well cast people are, and instead on why we like the performers we do. Excellent post. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 16:57:09 GMT
Have we honestly taken 178 pages to come to the conclusion that maybe, theatre is actually subjective? You wouldn't be human if you didn't form an opinion when you saw a show, or saw the same show with multiple different performers playing one role, but that doesn't make what you think the "definitive truth". In my opinion, Rachel is a fantastic and nuanced actress who gives a complex and multi-layered portrayal of Elphaba, formed from 4 years of experience playing the role across two continents. Also in my opinion, I find her a bit overly aggressive for the sake of it at times and I think her pronunciation of certain lines is slightly unnatural as clearly the meaning has been lost over the 1000+ shows. Nothing I have said in this paragraph, is correct, or indeed incorrect, you would be welcome to put a "not" in front of everything to express exactly the opposite to what I think, and you too would be equally valid in your thoughts. There is often a myth that there's a general consensus about who is good and who isn't, but that too means nothing, my favourite Elphaba is Ashleigh Gray and I know several people that would tell you she's a vocal damaged, broadly average, disproportionately popular standby who should never have been allowed near a lead role. Conversely, I'd say the same about Nikki Davis-Jones, but I know that she is several people's favourite. Being overrated is a vague and indefinable concept, and is too often used as a way of saying, "you might like them, but I don't". Everyone's thoughts are valid, but this nonsense about "so and so can't act" and "this person can't sing" is just stupid. I know we joke about cast members sleeping with casting producers, but that doesn't actually happen - at least not in Wicked - maybe in Kenwright tours *cough* Sarah Harding *cough*. Everyone who is cast in any role is done so because they are judged to be able to play that role, and of the 17 Elphabas I have seen, even my least favourite was still unmistakably adequate at what they do - and again, it's only my opinion that they were only "adequate" and not mindblowing from start to finish. Rachel can act, Emma can sing, Alice can growl, Jodie can belt, Cassidy Janson can switch from Defying Gravity into Natural Woman mid-sentence and hold an end note for longer than the entire run of I Can't Sing (okay, I made that last one up). Let us not dwell on how miscast we think perfectly well cast people are, and instead on why we like the performers we do. Excellent post. Thanks. Reading it back it seems so smug, but I think the point comes across. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 11:28:52 GMT
I agree with everything Martin said except for his comment about Nikki Davis-Jones, bitch she is the best acted Elphaba in any Wicked production around the world okayyyyyyyyy gurl (I have to say this is satire because certain people on this forum will not understand I am joking about Martin having an opinion. My love for Nikki Davis-Jones and thinking she is amazing is however, not satire. Love you Nikki)
Anyway, I find it very frustrating that the person who says Rachel can't act and said to me personally that "outside of the three big songs I find her so boring that I nearly fall asleep" labels a video "RACHEL TUCKER IS INCREDIBLE *love heart emoji*" and states "All hail QUEEN Rachel Tucker as she belts out her OUTSTANDING Fiyero Riff on Broadway!" in the description. It's very fake. Be upfront and honest about it. You can't go around saying you love a performer to some, and hate her to others because that's what will have the best outcome in your conversation. I don't like Emma Hatton. I don't think she can act at all and I find her voice incredibly unpleasant. Ashleigh Gray is not my favourite by a long mile, however I still like her Elphaba and would gladly see her again and see if she has improved. Honesty with these things goes a long way. I genuinely do get very disheartened by how "cliquey" and fake certain parts of the Wicked fandom can be *cough Fanzels cough*
Also, regarding the "amazing Fiyero riff" before this user tries to defend that specific moment saying that he does in fact like that moment as it's part of the three big songs criteria, you said quite literally yesterday that you don't like Rachel's riff.
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 28, 2016 11:37:17 GMT
I agree with everything Martin said except for his comment about Nikki Davis-Jones, bitch she is the best acted Elphaba in any Wicked production around the world okayyyyyyyyy gurl (I have to say this is satire because certain people on this forum will not understand I am joking about Martin having an opinion. My love for Nikki Davis-Jones and thinking she is amazing is however, not satire. Love you Nikki) Anyway, I find it very frustrating that the person who says Rachel can't act and said to me personally that "outside of the three big songs I find her so boring that I nearly fall asleep" labels a video "RACHEL TUCKER IS INCREDIBLE *love heart emoji*" and states "All hail QUEEN Rachel Tucker as she belts out her OUTSTANDING Fiyero Riff on Broadway!" in the description. It's very fake. Be upfront and honest about it. You can't go around saying you love a performer to some, and hate her to others because that's what will have the best outcome in your conversation. I don't like Emma Hatton. I don't think she can act at all and I find her voice incredibly unpleasant. Ashleigh Gray is not my favourite by a long mile, however I still like her Elphaba and would gladly see her again and see if she has improved. Honesty with these things goes a long way. I genuinely do get very disheartened by how "cliquey" and fake certain parts of the Wicked fandom can be *cough Fanzels cough* Also, regarding the "amazing Fiyero riff" before this user tries to defend that specific moment saying that he does in fact like that moment as it's part of the three big songs criteria, you said quite literally yesterday that you don't like Rachel's riff. Unfortunately, it seems like this person feels musical theatre is more about riffs than anything else and despite slating people's acting, fails to understand that certain "phenomenal" riffs in Emma's performance did begin to take away from the meaning of the song... |
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Post by tr252 on Dec 28, 2016 12:12:27 GMT
Give me a well sung to score Elphaba any day of the week over a riffed up performance, and I'm including Rachel in this who I have made no secret is my ultimate Elphaba but has been pulling riffs out all over the shop in her latest West End run. Don't get me wrong, they give me a thrill and they're executed very well but still, this score! It's amazing as it is!
There's another opinion that is not right or wrong...
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Post by singularsensation10 on Dec 28, 2016 12:42:38 GMT
Give me a well sung to score Elphaba any day of the week over a riffed up performance, and I'm including Rachel in this who I have made no secret is my ultimate Elphaba but has been pulling riffs out all over the shop in her latest West End run. Don't get me wrong, they give me a thrill and they're executed very well but still, this score! It's amazing as it is! There's another opinion that is not right or wrong... This. I don't go to last/first shows anymore because I'm done with riffing and screaming. The score was written a certain way for a reason. I enjoy a riff when it affirms the emotion in a certain word - so for this reason I don't enjoy Rachel's performance this run as much as I did in her first run because, whilst her vocals and riffs are flawless this run, she doesn't (IMO) convey as much emotion as it feels like she's lost touch with the meaning/emotion in some of the score. People used to say that 'Willemijn is capable of riffing way more than she does on the west end because I saw her do a crazy riff in a concert version so she must be under instruction not to riff' - yes maybe but also it's worth considering that the riff might not feel part of her characters emotion. Give me a score-sung performance over a riff any day. Unless, of course, it's Shoshana Bean. Then I'll welcome a riff. [Also don't think she could sing it to score if she tried LOL] |
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 28, 2016 13:53:23 GMT
Give me a well sung to score Elphaba any day of the week over a riffed up performance, and I'm including Rachel in this who I have made no secret is my ultimate Elphaba but has been pulling riffs out all over the shop in her latest West End run. Don't get me wrong, they give me a thrill and they're executed very well but still, this score! It's amazing as it is! There's another opinion that is not right or wrong... This. I don't go to last/first shows anymore because I'm done with riffing and screaming. The score was written a certain way for a reason. I enjoy a riff when it affirms the emotion in a certain word - so for this reason I don't enjoy Rachel's performance this run as much as I did in her first run because, whilst her vocals and riffs are flawless this run, she doesn't (IMO) convey as much emotion as it feels like she's lost touch with the meaning/emotion in some of the score. People used to say that 'Willemijn is capable of riffing way more than she does on the west end because I saw her do a crazy riff in a concert version so she must be under instruction not to riff' - yes maybe but also it's worth considering that the riff might not feel part of her characters emotion. Give me a score-sung performance over a riff any day. Unless, of course, it's Shoshana Bean. Then I'll welcome a riff. [Also don't think she could sing it to score if she tried LOL] 100% agree with this. Willemijn has some beautiful riffs that she has done in solo performances and her final shows. Ultimately though, I feel her mostly to score versions of the song in the show are strongest and really help portray the message of the song. |
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Post by shady23 on Dec 28, 2016 13:59:55 GMT
Give me a well sung to score Elphaba any day of the week over a riffed up performance, and I'm including Rachel in this who I have made no secret is my ultimate Elphaba but has been pulling riffs out all over the shop in her latest West End run. Don't get me wrong, they give me a thrill and they're executed very well but still, this score! It's amazing as it is! There's another opinion that is not right or wrong... This. I don't go to last/first shows anymore because I'm done with riffing and screaming. Don't forget the crying! Rachel's last last was punctuated by someone at the front sobbing loudly throughout. Plenty were upset, myself included, but did not feel the need to behave in this manner. Some fangirls (and boys) are like peacocks forever strutting around with their constant "look at me" audible reminders of screams and cries to try and convince those on stage they're most affected by their performances. I find first shows wonderful to watch though but mainly for the crowds reaction . One note in and they're either "omg the best ever" or completely written off as "they'll never be as good as..." This fanbase is absolutely fascinating isn't it?!  Is it the same for other shows? I bet the Jersey Boys stage door gets crazy! |
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 28, 2016 14:32:41 GMT
This. I don't go to last/first shows anymore because I'm done with riffing and screaming. Don't forget the crying! Rachel's last last was punctuated by someone at the front sobbing loudly throughout. Plenty were upset, myself included, but did not feel the need to behave in this manner. Some fangirls (and boys) are like peacocks forever strutting around with their constant "look at me" audible reminders of screams and cries to try and convince those on stage they're most affected by their performances. I find first shows wonderful to watch though but mainly for the crowds reaction . One note in and they're either "omg the best ever" or completely written off as "they'll never be as good as..." This fanbase is absolutely fascinating isn't it?! Is it the same for other shows? I bet the Jersey Boys stage door gets crazy! I've only ever been to a UK tour performance and you get the oldies going crazy during the show (One woman conducted the whole show from the Balcony in the Sheffield Lyceum) but it's a different crazy to Wicked. In Wicked, the superfans really seem to want to make it obvious that they go to one show every week and that they think the cast are their friends. With Jersey Boys, the issue seems to be that some people don't realise that it's not a concert, but with Wicked it's really a case of some of the fans wanting to seem the most emotional and wanting to be the centre of attention. Both are annoying, but for me when people scream and cry just for the sake of it at Wicked, it really gets my back up |
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Post by tr252 on Dec 28, 2016 14:49:08 GMT
I really don't understand where they find the time or money if I'm being completely honest. I'm all for people spending their money how they wish, of course, but to go every week is just so excessive.
Granted I live in Manchester but even finding a spare Saturday in November to see a matinee was hard enough.
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 28, 2016 14:58:34 GMT
I really don't understand where they find the time or money if I'm being completely honest. I'm all for people spending their money how they wish, of course, but to go every week is just so excessive. Granted I live in Manchester but even finding a spare Saturday in November to see a matinee was hard enough. Exactly, even if its dayseating, it's still in the region of £30 a go and some of these people claim to have gone 50 times in the past few years which is around £1500 on theatre tickets, let alone the cost of trains etc. Most of these people are student age too. and being a student myself, I certainly don't have the money to go to more than around 5 shows a year, if that. Even then, I'd try and see something different every time |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 15:01:09 GMT
I almost definitely used to be one of the paid up members of "Team Irritating Over Emotional Look At Me I Love Wicked" but fortunately I've had my rehabilitation now. I think it's a form of narcissism more than anything. If you put two people who love the same thing in a room there's naturally gonna be a bit of competition, but get 20 or 30 of them and suddenly it's all "oh did you only see 3 shows that week, I did all 8, I'M THE MOST EMOTIONALLY CONNECTED TO THIS CAST, ME!"
Everyone needs to validate themselves as a member of the group by being the brashest, or most upset, or in the case of a lot of the dayseat campers, the one who could use a bottle of Lynx the most. I think Wicked attracts it because it's a story everyone can relate to, not in the sense that everyone has been green, but everyone has been rejected and felt worthless, and there's nobody, no matter how masculine, that can't benefit from two empowering female role models. I genuinely believe that the 2006 "Idina Menzel is in Wicked" euphoria has never quite dissipated, and the next generation will take it on in a different way, I mean the Fanzels from a decade ago weren't rushing to Twitter, and the surges in popularity come and go, but it will always be there. The current incarnation just seem to be more annoying than ever. Or maybe just louder.
I've seen the show 195 times now, about 140 of which were in my "look at me" time, then I had a bit of a general meltdown, and reappeared a few months later with a more level head and started genuinely appreciating the show. I still see it far more frequently than is normal, but I don't feel I'm doing it to prove anything to anyone any more, most of the time I will go on my own and then not even bother to go to stage door. I love Wicked, not the attention from the cast members. There's hope for the current crazies yet.
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Post by diva95 on Dec 28, 2016 17:46:20 GMT
On another note... Helen went on for Glinda again today
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2016 17:55:05 GMT
I've seen Wicked 4 times since first seeing it in April 2015. That may not seem like a lot, but if you consider the fact that I am a student on a budget and don't even live in the UK or US, I think I've definitely seen it more than many people would find normal. I absolutely love Wicked and I'll always go see it if I get the chance. What I agree on with most of you is that seeing the same show with the same cast every week is not very normal. Although I don't know how I would be if I lived in London or New York. But anyway, that's their choice. If they like going back every week, who am I to say they shouldn't?
But the worst part definitely is the way these people experience it and the way they behave in front of the cast and other patrons. As mentioned above, I too suspect they just do it to get attention. Going to stage door on such a regular basis, constantly tweeting the cast and thinking they're your friends is not normal. I bet if I told one of these superfans that I'm a big fan of Wicked too, they would probably mock me to my face for having seen it less than 50 times.
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Post by shady23 on Dec 28, 2016 20:32:08 GMT
On another note... Helen went on for Glinda again today This afternoon was the show Suzie was scheduled to miss. Two two day shows in a row. Rachel is missing tomorrow night. |
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Post by diva95 on Dec 28, 2016 22:08:54 GMT
On another note... Helen went on for Glinda again today This afternoon was the show Suzie was scheduled to miss. Two two day shows in a row. Rachel is missing tomorrow night. Yes, but it must mean that even though Carina is around she still isn't right to be able to go on as Glinda? |
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Post by tr252 on Dec 29, 2016 16:23:41 GMT
The comment under this video are so over the top, e.g. "DEAD OMG"
Is it just me that thinks she sounds as flat as pancake when she goes for it? It's just a scream.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 16:33:00 GMT
The comment under this video are so over the top, e.g. "DEAD OMG" Is it just me that thinks she sounds as flat as pancake when she goes for it? It's just a scream. Yeah she didn't hit it 100% right. It does sound more like a scream. Great quality video though. |
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 29, 2016 17:16:14 GMT
The comment under this video are so over the top, e.g. "DEAD OMG" Is it just me that thinks she sounds as flat as pancake when she goes for it? It's just a scream. Yeah she didn't hit it 100% right. It does sound more like a scream. Great quality video though. The guy that filmed this is another one of the serial offenders. Films literally every wicked show he attends. Surprises me that he's not been caught to be honest. What I find even funnier, is that his website tries to state that it's somehow illegal to shut his website down for copyright infringements XD |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 17:53:43 GMT
Yeah she didn't hit it 100% right. It does sound more like a scream. Great quality video though. The guy that filmed this is another one of the serial offenders. Films literally every wicked show he attends. Surprises me that he's not been caught to be honest. What I find even funnier, is that his website tries to state that it's somehow illegal to shut his website down for copyright infringements XD I'm not gonna lie. I like this kind of short clips. But filming entire shows is very disrespectful. Filming short clips is disrespectful too, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't watch them. |
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Post by shady23 on Dec 29, 2016 18:57:25 GMT
Audio recording is one thing, you can do it discretely without distracting performers and the other audience members.
Video recording is another thing all together and something the shows will not just say "oh well" to.
People are playing a very dangerous game if they think that someone is not going to be made an example of at some point!
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Post by welsh_tenor on Dec 29, 2016 19:00:39 GMT
I'll just leave this here.... all of them amazing. Kristin wins for me though! So pure!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 19:07:59 GMT
I'll just leave this here.... all of them amazing. Kristin wins for me though! So pure! Oh no, Megan and Alli are so much better imo. |
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Post by Dan213 on Dec 29, 2016 19:18:16 GMT
The guy that filmed this is another one of the serial offenders. Films literally every wicked show he attends. Surprises me that he's not been caught to be honest. What I find even funnier, is that his website tries to state that it's somehow illegal to shut his website down for copyright infringements XD I'm not gonna lie. I like this kind of short clips. But filming entire shows is very disrespectful. Filming short clips is disrespectful too, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't watch them. This guy films the whole show everytime he goes by the looks of his website. He just puts snippets of the full recording on YouTube... |
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Is it the same for other shows? I bet the Jersey Boys stage door gets crazy!
