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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 9:13:03 GMT
I thought Switzerland was doing his best Billy MacKenzie, while looking like a young Tony Hadley and it made me very happy.
I’m sort of stunned that Italy won, but they were an X Factor act and that sort of glam/metal/rock is more popular throughout Europe than it is here. I think I’m just out of the loop.
The whole thing made me very emotional and it felt like a return to normalcy.
I wonder if we would have done any better if we’d sent the United KingDolls?
(Also thank you @n1david for very thoughtful posts about Eurovision Economics. I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter.)
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Post by The Matthew on May 23, 2021 9:53:51 GMT
Time for Britain, Germany, Netherlands and Spain to breakaway and form a European Super Singing Contest. I'd like it if another contest was set up that was more like the Eurovision of my childhood, where there were few enough countries that it was over in not much more than a couple of hours, almost everyone sang in their native language, and the results weren't all about who hated whom in eastern Europe.
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Post by johartuk on May 23, 2021 10:07:30 GMT
I really enjoyed last night's Eurovision final - it was great to have so many upbeat songs, and the staging overall was pretty impressive, though I did find myself getting confused with the similar looking female costumes (silvery/glittery/skimpy) - it was like they were bought as a job lot!
I was trying to work out if the Russian lady had a mobility scooter hidden inside her enormous costume at the beginning of the song. That was definitely a song of two halves (bonkers costume and shouty verse, then a surprisingly tuneful chorus).
I thought it was odd to have Russia and Malta back to back, since they both had very similar messages. An odd choice by the producers there.
Germany looked like 'Legz Akimbo Theatre Company does Eurovision'! I found myself thinking that I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when that poor dancer was told (and shown the costume) that she was going to be dressed as a giant hand!
I liked Iceland, San Marino, Malta, Switzerland, Greece and Italy. Also thought France was OK, though she lots it a bit vocally near the end - too busy trying to act overwrought and forgot to concentrate on keeping the vocals on point.
Disappointed for James, but I think the UK need to send someone who is really able to perform a song, and handle being on a big stage. James struggled a bit vocally and was clearly limited in what he could do to sell the song. No choreography or real engagement with the audience. I'd also say that the secret to a strong and memorable song is a decent chorus that will stick in the audience's head long after the performance is over, and a singer who can really sing and own the stage. The past winners in the interval demonstrate that.
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Post by jgblunners on May 23, 2021 10:17:42 GMT
I think James Graham sums up our problem pretty nicely:
Someone else on twitter (I now can't find the tweet) said that the top scoring countries essentially performed a music video live on stage. Eurovision is about so much more than just having a decent song, and the team that put together the UK act seem not to get that.
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Post by alece10 on May 23, 2021 10:35:02 GMT
I was going to start off by saying that it was about time the UK stopped paying huge amounts of money to be one of the big 5 and spend licence payers fees on other things. I had presumed, probably like many others, that we contributed millions of pounds so it was a real surprise when I read Davidn1 comments about how little we actually pay and understand the reasoning why we still participate as it is a cheap nights TV. I am guessing that some of the smaller countries contribute about a fiver each. People say that the UK does not take it seriously and we don't enter good songs which I partly agree with, however, our entry this year was certainly not the worst by a long way and yet we still got no votes at all. I cant think of the last time we were on the left hand side of the scoreboard. Surely we cant have the worst song year on year! I am no expert but some of the songs last night were dire and yet they still managed to get some points. Its the age old issue of politics and the fact that no one likes us. Just look at Greece and Cyprus giving each other 12 points and it wasn't as if the songs were in their own language. Its all getting rather silly now in my opinion. But, its still a great night even though it lasted 3 hours 55 mins this year and I look forward to watching it every year and getting angry every year. Even if the UK did not appear anymore I would still watch it for the spectacle. I've loved Eurovision since I was a kid and old enough to remember Katie Boyle, Abba etc but not quite old enough to remember Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson! Never actually been to the contest but I did go to the 60th Anniversary concert at Hammersmith Odeon which was one of the best nights ever. Anyway the arguments will go on and on and it doesn't matter whether we enter the best singer with the best song and the best staging we will still never again get to the left hand side of the scoreboard.
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Post by alece10 on May 23, 2021 10:38:17 GMT
I think James Graham sums up our problem pretty nicely: Someone else on twitter (I now can't find the tweet) said that the top scoring countries essentially performed a music video live on stage. Eurovision is about so much more than just having a decent song, and the team that put together the UK act seem not to get that. Not sure I agree with those comments. After watching so many songs last night its all a bit of a blur, but I dont remember Switzerland or France (2 of the highest scoring countries) having a visually stunning performance. They just stood there and sang with some projections at the back of the stage didn't they?
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Post by steve10086 on May 23, 2021 10:44:30 GMT
Have to say I had assumed we paid much more than has been quoted here!
Anyway, I’d still we rather qualified in the same way as most other countries.
2009 is only 12 years ago, and we came 5th then. Send someone Europe likes and we score points!
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Post by alece10 on May 23, 2021 10:55:15 GMT
Have to say I had assumed we paid much more than has been quoted here! Anyway, I’d still we rather qualified in the same way as most other countries. 2009 is only 12 years ago, and we came 5th then. Send someone Europe likes and we score points! That was the song written by The Lord ALW and he went all over Europe to promote it I remember. Apparantly Europe love him which I guess is why we did so well. So for next year we have to work out which Brit Europe love and get them to do it. I go for that "willowman" guy doing a sea shanty with Maggie Smith and the Duchess of Cambridge on backing vocals.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 23, 2021 11:15:26 GMT
I don’t think it’s a case of other countries not liking us. I can’t remember a U.K. entry in the last 25 years that was any good. So if I wouldn’t vote for us, why would I expect anyone else to?
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on May 23, 2021 11:20:17 GMT
I don’t think it’s a case of other countries not liking us. I can’t remember a U.K. entry in the last 25 years that was any good. So if I wouldn’t vote for us, why would I expect anyone else to? Lucie Jones did relatively well I think? But you’re right. I always root for other countries. Planning my trip for next year already ...
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Post by alece10 on May 23, 2021 11:32:09 GMT
I don’t think it’s a case of other countries not liking us. I can’t remember a U.K. entry in the last 25 years that was any good. So if I wouldn’t vote for us, why would I expect anyone else to? 1997 Catrina and the Waves? That was a good song and we won.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 23, 2021 11:51:53 GMT
I was thinking Gina G was the last one I really liked.
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Post by dontdreamit on May 23, 2021 12:54:01 GMT
They need to send an act like Steps in next year 🙂
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 23, 2021 14:21:27 GMT
We tried sending an established band with Blue. We tried sending musical legend with followings in Europe.
The voting system is now so broken, the politics so entrenched that nothing will change without a complete reform of the whole thing.
Was the UK really the worst song of the night? Not by a long mile. Was it the worst vocal performance/staging? Not even close. Did so many countries deserve nil points from the voting public? No way. The EBU could not fail to hear the crowd in the arena call out 'Greece' when the Cypriot guy was asked who their 12 points were going to.
Radical change is needed to return this to being about the quality of the songwriting first and then the quality of the singing.
Yes, it is an entertainment show that has come to rely on spectacle. It needs to retain viewers. But it has to remember the core values of the competition.
If you read the Italian lyrics, there is nothing of interest or value there. It was not a well crafted song that lingers in the mind. It was not a good example of rock/metal or any part of those musical genres. Was it well staged? No. Will it feature on future Eurovision compilation CDs? No. How did it win? I just don't know. There was no hook, no shape, no development.
I knew it was going to be a poor year when the songs had all emerged and there wasn't one that I really wanted to win. There were hardly any songs that I wouldn't have minded winning.
It felt like a collection of B sides.
In the end, France was my winner but even that had a majorly flawed final section that just went a bit manic.
If next year doesn’t have songs that capture my imagination and interest, it might mark the end of my engagement with the whole thing.
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Post by anthony40 on May 23, 2021 15:08:55 GMT
Anyone else feel sorry for James Newman?
From all of the interviews I have seen with him he come across a really nice and genuine guy.
He sang his heart out and did extremely well.
What the hell went wrong?
And he took his defeat with dignity.
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Post by stuartmcd on May 23, 2021 15:15:45 GMT
See in my opinion I think the UK was one of the worst of the night. Not necessarily the worst song but it was one of the worst performances and pretty forgettable. There was a lack of energy. He sounded out of breath. It just wasn’t enjoyable to watch. I don’t think it deserved 0 points however as we have definitely sent worse. Ultimately each country can only award points to 10 countries and the UK performance was not a top 10 performance. It’s not rigged. It’s not a bad voting system. I do think we may get a bit of a harder time than other countries but we have shown that when we put the effort in then we do see better results. The UK needs to stop playing safe. To win Eurovision you need to stand out from the crowd. You have 3 minutes to put on a show and be remembered. They need to take a risk and try something new and frankly it can’t get much worse.
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Post by steve10086 on May 23, 2021 15:20:45 GMT
We tried sending an established band with Blue. We tried sending musical legend with followings in Europe. The voting system is now so broken, the politics so entrenched that nothing will change without a complete reform of the whole thing. Was the UK really the worst song of the night? Not by a long mile. Was it the worst vocal performance/staging? Not even close. Did so many countries deserve nil points from the voting public? No way. The EBU could not fail to hear the crowd in the arena call out 'Greece' when the Cypriot guy was asked who their 12 points were going to. Sent Jade Ewen with ALW and came 5th. It can be done. And what about all the years the UK and Ireland would give each other high scores?
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Post by stuartmcd on May 23, 2021 15:25:53 GMT
And also countries voting for their neighbours isn’t necessarily politics. The UK voted for Ireland when it was Jedward. They weren’t the best on the night but they were recognisable faces to the UK audience and they got our 12 points. The entry for Cyprus this year was from Greece and this happens a lot with Greece and Cyprus. There’s a lot of crossover there. So they always give each other points. And you will find this across a lot of the other countries where the acts are recognisable and popular already. I saw somewhere that the entry for Serbia this year was already pretty popular in the Baltics.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 23, 2021 15:59:38 GMT
Is that all we pay, around 300k? I always assumed it was far more. The latest figures published are from 2012 so it will have gone up a bit since then, but it's not a huge amount by TV standards. The bulk of the cost of the show is paid for by the host broadcaster, the host city and commercial revenues - for guidance, I had tickets for Rotterdam, which was a 'fan package' ticket giving access to six shows, the jury semi-finals and final, plus the televised semi-finals and final. This was a cheaper ticket because it was the fan package. It cost €800. Obviously the BBC spends more overall on the coverage by sending the delegation to the event, paying accommodation, travel, Graham's fee etc. It will be interesting if they decide they can do more of it from the UK next year as they did this year, for example with the semi-final commentary and Radio 2 commentary being done from London. But for the viewership and the publicity, it's a good deal for them. I was told the £300k covered Olympics and World Cup/European football championships. Great value I would say
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Post by justsaying113 on May 23, 2021 16:09:01 GMT
We could easily win if we ever again enter anything vaguely decent. The Duncan Laurence win from 2019 has been a hit all over the world and has recently flown-up the US charts. It can be done.
James Newman and his song weren't appalling but it is like the track on an album you always skip.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 23, 2021 16:37:05 GMT
We tried sending an established band with Blue. We tried sending musical legend with followings in Europe. The voting system is now so broken, the politics so entrenched that nothing will change without a complete reform of the whole thing. Was the UK really the worst song of the night? Not by a long mile. Was it the worst vocal performance/staging? Not even close. Did so many countries deserve nil points from the voting public? No way. The EBU could not fail to hear the crowd in the arena call out 'Greece' when the Cypriot guy was asked who their 12 points were going to. Sent Jade Ewen with ALW and came 5th. It can be done. And what about all the years the UK and Ireland would give each other high scores? The Ewen/ALW song was a long time ago. And it was a pretty awful bit of writing. The lyrics in particular were infantile. The main difference that year was we fully engaged with the merry-go-round of media appearances round the EBU nations. If we had been able to do that this year, we might have done better. James was clearly a popular member of the Eurovision gang judging by the reaction in the room. The initial reaction online to his song was that it was worthy of the left hand side of the board. I never really thought he would do better than about 20th. But the double zero was an unfair reflection on him and the song.
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Post by karloscar on May 23, 2021 16:40:43 GMT
You have to be in somebody's top ten songs to gain a point. Out of the 26 songs would you have put the UK entry in your top ten? I certainly wouldn't. And neither did anyone else. There's no conspiracy against us. We need to take it away from the godawful BBC producers and get ITV or Channel 4 to rethink the way we approach the whole thing.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 23, 2021 16:41:43 GMT
All of this “well other songs were worse than ours” is irrelevant. It’s not a competition to be bottom. If we’re not making it to the top 5, even the top 10 then wherever we come after that doesn’t matter. I’d also say it’s not about quality songwriting. Boom Bang A Bang? Puppet On A String? The aforementioned Gina G’s Ooh Ah Just A Little Bit? It’s hardly Cole Porter is it? It’s about mass appeal and cultural crossover. And we’re apparently crap at that.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 23, 2021 16:57:35 GMT
You have to be in somebody's top ten songs to gain a point. Out of the 26 songs would you have put the UK entry in your top ten? I certainly wouldn't. And neither did anyone else. There's no conspiracy against us. We need to take it away from the godawful BBC producers and get ITV or Channel 4 to rethink the way we approach the whole thing. There were 39 juries and 39 voting publics - I would have expected that at least one would have liked it enough to put it in their top 10. I would have expected a far more positive reaction to the Netherlands - I didn't rate the song - but I could imagine why others might. San Marino doing so badly with the public was another big shock. I know these things are unpredictable. But it was a very odd set of scores on many levels.
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on May 23, 2021 17:05:46 GMT
See in my opinion I think the UK was one of the worst of the night. Not necessarily the worst song but it was one of the worst performances and pretty forgettable. There was a lack of energy. He sounded out of breath. It just wasn’t enjoyable to watch. I don’t think it deserved 0 points however as we have definitely sent worse. Ultimately each country can only award points to 10 countries and the UK performance was not a top 10 performance. It’s not rigged. It’s not a bad voting system. I do think we may get a bit of a harder time than other countries but we have shown that when we put the effort in then we do see better results. The UK needs to stop playing safe. To win Eurovision you need to stand out from the crowd. You have 3 minutes to put on a show and be remembered. They need to take a risk and try something new and frankly it can’t get much worse. It wasn't the worst song. But he sounded so vocally tired - he did say in interviews, he has just been rehearsing in his hotel room. Maybe he knackered himself out? Not excusing him but he really did show a lot of valour when it came to the announcement that he had come last. You can tell he's a nice guy and popular personality wise. We do need to take a risk. Our entries are always the same. It's boring.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 23, 2021 17:12:24 GMT
We want it too much too. We need to chill out, not give a **** and stop TRYING so hard to find the magic formula. Some countries have never won or have rarely won. We don’t have a divine right to it just because we have a huge Eurovision fan base and have won a few in the past.
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Post by ThereWillBeSun on May 23, 2021 17:13:58 GMT
We want it too much too. We need to chill out, not give a **** and stop TRYING so hard to find the magic formula. Some countries have never won or have rarely won. We don’t have a divine right to it just because we have a huge Eurovision fan base and have won a few in the past. 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES. WELL SAID.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 23, 2021 18:11:07 GMT
We want it too much too. We need to chill out, not give a **** and stop TRYING so hard to find the magic formula. Some countries have never won or have rarely won. We don’t have a divine right to it just because we have a huge Eurovision fan base and have won a few in the past. This
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Post by sph on May 23, 2021 18:58:10 GMT
We tried sending an established band with Blue. Blue aren't really camp enough for Eurovision though. Steps would be more fitting. Was the voting political? I'm not a Eurovision fan but... maybe. Other countries don't like the UK, but at the same time everyone wants to live here. Bit of old-fashioned begrudgery maybe.
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Post by oxfordsimon on May 23, 2021 19:25:42 GMT
Given the strength in the global market of UK acts - including all over Europe - it isn't that we aren't capable as a nation of producing music with broad international appeal.
I don't honestly believe that we have been seeking a magic formula any more than many other countries. We have sent a broad range of styles over the past decade and nothing has landed well.
There is no magic formula (no matter what Love Love Peace Peace might suggest)
What we do see is one song winning or doing really well and a whole raft of countries try to copy the same 'winning' formula the following. With almost no success.
If you look at Italy since they returned to the competition, they have tried all sorts: gimmicky with a gorilla suit, the popular but not popular enough Soldi, the operatic and then they win with faux metal/rock. There is no method in that.
I genuinely believe that we need a voting system that ranks from top to bottom not just a top 10. At present you can come 11th with every jury and every national vote and end up with absolutely no points at all. Then we get a real reflection of how the songs have been received and whilst it will not radically change results, it will be transparent and more fair.
There are those who say that songwriters/performers should be limited to citizens of each nation. There are some virtue in that sort of change. Another call has been for the languages sung to be limited to the official languages of each nation.
But the voting is what really needs to change. Once that is perceived to be more fair, more credible UK acts might be persuaded to enter. This year we sent a very experienced and talented songwriter with a number of international credits to his name. And he will now be more famous for having got nil points.
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