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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2022 12:56:41 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did.
The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 18, 2022 12:02:46 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Doesn't have to be someone as 'old school left wing' as Corbyn. Still, as if the Labour Party are going to give even your Andy Burnham's of this world a go
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Post by Jan on May 18, 2022 12:59:11 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ?
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Post by theglenbucklaird on May 18, 2022 13:57:19 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ? Didn't Corbyn get the greatest percentage of young voters in any election?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on May 18, 2022 19:16:16 GMT
Jeremy Corbyn is an old fashioned socialist like Tony Benn and Skinner who has his set of beliefs and he will stick to them whatever people think. Sadly he is nowhere near the politician that Tony Benn was and wasn't as formidable as Dennis Skinner was. Tony Blair wanted to promote Tony Blair and had thye mentality he'd do whatever he could to get power and remain in power a Tory like quality. Being able to reach out to the floating voters is the key which Blair and Maggie did. Being able to preach to the converted less so which the likes of JC did. The real interesting thing would be if a younger more dynamic person with a true socialist outlook emerged and engaged with the younger voters. Then we might see just how far those ideas could go. Labour’s problem is not in appealing to younger voters, it is in appealing to older voters. Look at the voting breakdown by age in the last election. Burnham has too much baggage from his failings when running the NHS. Wes Streeting maybe ? Not to mention his failings with Greater Manchester Police who he is responsible for when he feels like it. i passed him in the street the other week. Small. In every respect.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 10:50:47 GMT
Andy Burnham has had two cracks as being leader so after being rejected twice would he be able to run again. The likes of Dan Jarvis the Sheffield Mayor seems a better option, experienced MP, former soldier looks as if he has some gravitas. Also Sadiq Khan is the top elected Labour person in power and would follow Boris path from Mayor. But he seems quite happy running London so unless Labour were very likely to get back into power would he consider giving up such a high profile role.
David Miliband is still working in New York and has been out of Parliament for nearly a decade but could he be parachuted back in if they thought he was best man for the job or to a very senior position at least.
Wes Streeting has an impressive CV and came up from nothing. My only concern with him at the moment would be he had a serious health scare last year so maybe wait a few years to get time clear from that and also at under 40 has time on his side. Definite potential future leader though.
David Lammy when he was first elected as an MP I can remember reading and thinking he was a potential first black PM, youngest MP at the time, impressive guy been to Harvard, called to the bar at 22. But never made it to the cabinet for some reason in Blair/Brown era and only got a major shadow cabinet role again in recent years. Also Sadiq Khan got London Mayor spot ahead of him. But still not 50 yet, 20 plus years an MP so could yet have chance for one of the top cabinet jobs at least
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Post by Jon on May 19, 2022 12:09:36 GMT
Andy Burnham has had two cracks as being leader so after being rejected twice would he be able to run again. The likes of Dan Jarvis the Sheffield Mayor seems a better option, experienced MP, former soldier looks as if he has some gravitas. Also Sadiq Khan is the top elected Labour person in power and would follow Boris path from Mayor. But he seems quite happy running London so unless Labour were very likely to get back into power would he consider giving up such a high profile role. David Miliband is still working in New York and has been out of Parliament for nearly a decade but could he be parachuted back in if they thought he was best man for the job or to a very senior position at least. Wes Streeting has an impressive CV and came up from nothing. My only concern with him at the moment would be he had a serious health scare last year so maybe wait a few years to get time clear from that and also at under 40 has time on his side. Definite potential future leader though. David Lammy when he was first elected as an MP I can remember reading and thinking he was a potential first black PM, youngest MP at the time, impressive guy been to Harvard, called to the bar at 22. But never made it to the cabinet for some reason in Blair/Brown era and only got a major shadow cabinet role again in recent years. Also Sadiq Khan got London Mayor spot ahead of him. But still not 50 yet, 20 plus years an MP so could yet have chance for one of the top cabinet jobs at least I suspect unless they offer Sadiq a plum position in a future Labour Government then I think he'll stick to being Mayor of London when the next election comes around in 2024 since it's not term limited. That being said, I would imagine if he did intend to return to Parliament, I imagine Labour would go for Harriet Harman's Constituency since she's retiring at the next election.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 12:25:18 GMT
The next London majoral election will fall on the provisional date for next general election. Mr Khan could return as an MP and still be mayor as Boris did both in 2015/16 but he was not seeking reelection as mayor in 2016. You can be an MP and a Mayor as long as mayoral role doesn't include Police and Crime comissioner powers. Hence you have Dan Jarvis still an MP and mayor whilst Tracy Brabin had to give up her seat when she became an elected mayor as that role had PCC powers attached.
With Boris having an exit date as mayor he was able to return to the commons, Sadiq would have to decide one or the other really in 2024 and be pretty certain Labour would gain power and he'd be in line for a top job. The need for him to return to the commons would diminish after 2024 if Labour got in power as they would have people gaining ministerial experience. His biggest asset would be in 2024 when Labour would be short of people with ministerial experience and you'd have a guy who had run the capital for 8 years to use.
Personally I think someone should be mayor or an MP not both. But I agree HH's seat would be perfect for Sadiq to takeover.
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Post by Jon on May 19, 2022 12:45:23 GMT
Personally I think someone should be mayor or an MP not both. But I agree HH's seat would be perfect for Sadiq to takeover. It was either that or Margaret Hodge's seat and I suspect the latter's probably too north of the river for a South Londoner like Sadiq Khan!
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 16:06:12 GMT
If a Party wants someone back in Parliament enough they will always find them a safe seat. Harriet's or Dame Margaret's would both fit the bill.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on May 20, 2022 13:36:04 GMT
Imagine having voted for the alternative - a bunch of anti-Semitic Putin apologists advising a leader who has now had the Labour whip removed. Corbyn was by no means perfect, but Anti-Semitism in the party reduced under his leadership, and the Tories are way more compromised wrt Russia than Corbyn ever was. You appear to have fallen, like many others, for a very successful smear campaign. As a Jewish person I’d love to know what “reduced antisemitism” means in practice. Pretty sick of Jews being told our concerns over our own safety as a minority group who are subject to some of the most insidious and constant racism in this country is a smear campaign. But on the other hand equally sick of Tory politicians exploiting our concerns for their own political agenda. In general, non-Jews need to let Jewish people decide what is and isn’t antisemetic (not aimed at anyone on this forum as obviously don’t know anyone’s religion, just a general observation).
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 15:03:41 GMT
Antisemitism IMO is just another way of dressing up racism towards Jewish people but in some cases is used to describe negative reactions to the way Israel interacts with some of it's neighbours.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on May 20, 2022 15:22:54 GMT
This discussion has nothing to do with Israel and no one has mentioned Israel.
It’s very disturbing that the second Jews speak, like clockwork someone immediately pops up to say “but whatabout Israel.”
Like clockwork.
EVERY time.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2022 18:58:19 GMT
This discussion has nothing to do with Israel and no one has mentioned Israel. It’s very disturbing that the second Jews speak, like clockwork someone immediately pops up to say “but whatabout Israel.” Like clockwork. EVERY time. I was trying to quantify why the term anti semetism is used instead of racism. A lot of the anti Jewish feeling in the labour party was due to certain factions of it supporting the likes of the PLO for example and then you have the state of Israel surrounded by largely muslim countries. I always liked Yasser Arafat but also thought Mosad were cool as heck so I'm neutral as far as that goes.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on May 21, 2022 13:28:55 GMT
It’s not about that, it’s just utterly exhausting that non-Jewish people can discuss antisemitism until the cows come home, but the second a Jew speaks, someone brings up Israel. It’s hard not to be over sensitive when you experience it every day.
Politicians on both sides exploit things for their own agendas but we know the difference between racism, and criticism of a government we didn’t vote for in a foreign country many of us have never even been to, but nonetheless often used to justify racism against us.
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Post by talkingheads on May 23, 2022 15:22:07 GMT
Here come the photos. Unequivocal proof that Johnson lied. I wish this meant he would resign, but that would mean he possessed a modicum of shame or guilt, which he does not.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 16:14:55 GMT
Were people who broke the Covid rules and were fined named?
Anything that goes to the magistrates court is published with the outcome unless it is a sensitive case.
But for the likes of driving in a bus lane, not having correct transport ticket, dropping litter are those fines published ?
If they are then anyone at these parties should be named if they wre fined.
People know I'm a Tory but I think he needs to go but being a Tory means he is unlikely to have many morals.
Weekly Meeting With the Queen
Boris: I hear you aren't going to Trooping the Colour your majesty? HM: I think you should go Prime Minister Boris: Yes of course I'm going your majesty just the stand which collapsed I might have been sitting in that HM: Yes terrible pity but I didn't mean Trooping the Colour I meant go as in when someone is replaced Boris: Don't worry your majesty, I'll guide Prince Charles through the initial period HM: That is what I was worried about. No I meant you being replaced. I think you should go Prime Minister Boris: Um Ahh, yes your majesty I'll take that on board HM: Yes to a destination far away I hear the Falklands needs a new Governor General?
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Post by talkingheads on May 25, 2022 11:47:00 GMT
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Post by Jon on May 25, 2022 12:27:48 GMT
Fascinating interview with Dame Sarah Gilbert on This Morning:
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Post by crowblack on May 25, 2022 12:32:04 GMT
What's the endgame on this? As a Left-winger I really cannot see the point in it all. Cummings' revenge, distraction from global events, lots of taxpayers' money p**sed up the wall in enquiries, and the slight possibility of Johnson going and then what, he'd be replaced by another Tory leader even more hardline.
I do find it very bizarre that all those people, especially FBPE types who a year ago thought Cummings was the devil incarnate now think he'd some kind of force for good.
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Post by vdcni on May 25, 2022 13:41:50 GMT
No one thinks Cumming is a force for good, we're just enjoying watching them tear each other apart.
Endgame, how about a PM with some level of honesty and decency. One who isn't utterly corrupt. A cabinet with some ministers in there worthy of the name.
If you could point towards a positive thing this government are trying to achieve that they are being distracted from that would be great.
The government under Johnson is introducing lots of very right wing policies. I'm not sure who is supposed to be the worse option there at this point.
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Post by crowblack on May 25, 2022 15:05:35 GMT
The Government is appalling, but I don't think this will result in a general election, and if there's a leadership election who will we get? I remember my housemates singing 'ding dong the witch is dead' when Thatcher went, but her replacement - refreshment - won the Tories another term, and Kinnock and the shadow cabinet of those days were far more formidable politicians than Starmer and his bunch of overgrown students.
And I don't enjoy watching the govt and political parties tearing each other apart at this point in time. It's a huge distraction from what is going on in the world right now, the full impact of which we have yet to really feel but is coming down the line with the food supply chain and energy. A major global 'breadbasket' is unable to produce food and Russia is blocking off its trade routes. This is medieval warfare.
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Post by vdcni on May 25, 2022 16:44:55 GMT
This is the goverment that had decided to spend time criminalising peaceful protest, coming up with a wildly expensive and impractical scheme to ship refugees off to Africa, taking a run at the EU most weeks over a protocal it agreed to and sold in to the electorate, taking control of the electoral commission, introducing voter ID and selling off C4 for no good reason.
They have spent more time bitching about wokeness then confronting the cost of living crisis so I'm a bit mystified by the idea that partygate is the problem.
And of course they brought it on themselves by lying about it for weeks until they were forced to set up an investigation. If Johnson cared about anything but himself he'd have stepped down by now.
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Post by crowblack on May 25, 2022 17:08:34 GMT
This is the goverment that had decided to spend time criminalising peaceful protest, coming up with a wildly expensive and impractical scheme to ship refugees off to Africa, taking a run at the EU most weeks over a protocal it agreed to and sold in to the electorate, taking control of the electoral commission, introducing voter ID and selling off C4 for no good reason. All of which we should have been busy trying to stop but instead the news headline agenda has been utterly dominated by this one 'story' that is being drip-fed by Cummings to a media that has always enjoyed reporting Westminster bubble nonsense rather than real world issues that have a actual impact on people's day to day lives. All the other things have gone under the radar, 'a good day to bury bad news' style, in favour of an obsession with 'the sue gray report' which the chattering classes think will be the magic fairy dust that will make it 2016 again. They just followed the reporting on the radio this afternoon with the Eurythmics' Dave Stewart visiting from the USA and he sounded amazed that with everything going on in the world we were so obsessed with poring over this trivia from 2 years ago.
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Post by vdcni on May 26, 2022 7:10:29 GMT
This is the goverment that had decided to spend time criminalising peaceful protest, coming up with a wildly expensive and impractical scheme to ship refugees off to Africa, taking a run at the EU most weeks over a protocal it agreed to and sold in to the electorate, taking control of the electoral commission, introducing voter ID and selling off C4 for no good reason. All of which we should have been busy trying to stop but instead the news headline agenda has been utterly dominated by this one 'story' that is being drip-fed by Cummings to a media that has always enjoyed reporting Westminster bubble nonsense rather than real world issues that have a actual impact on people's day to day lives. All the other things have gone under the radar, 'a good day to bury bad news' style, in favour of an obsession with 'the sue gray report' which the chattering classes think will be the magic fairy dust that will make it 2016 again. They just followed the reporting on the radio this afternoon with the Eurythmics' Dave Stewart visiting from the USA and he sounded amazed that with everything going on in the world we were so obsessed with poring over this trivia from 2 years ago. All those things did face opposition but there is a limit to what you can do when a government has the majority it has and has a mostly tame media lining up behind it. And there's plenty of coverage of the cost of living crisis and the opposition have been raising it constantly. The government have dragged their feet on it but that's nothing to do with being distracted by this. You can call it Westminster bubble if you like but polls indicate that this story has cut through properly. While I'd love people to get worked up about all the horrible policies the government have introduced realistically this reaches out to people personally in a way those other points don't. It isn't trivia, it speaks to something wider about honesty, integrity and this governments refusal to accept that the rules apply to them. People thought we were all in it together and many many people have a story of who they didn't see and then lost in the same weeks and months that Number 10 was party central. Yes this should have been over sooner but it has been dragged out because the government lied about it for so long and the Met refused to properly investigate it for months - arguably they still haven't properly investigated. We can see that this has caused many people to abandon support for this government as their decline in the polls can be dated to these revelations and I don't see how anyone genuinely opposed to this government can object to that.
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Post by crowblack on May 26, 2022 9:48:21 GMT
I'm on the Left - old Labour / socialist Left, though not one of the Corbyn 'anyone who hates the West is great' types - but I really do think this is a distraction being orchestrated by Cummings and from within the Tory party, especially from the 'anti-lockdown' brigade and you have to ask yourself why? The timing of the first leaks 'conveniently' meant that safety measures were stood down here when other countries maintained them, and it served - and continues to serve - Russia well.
I'll add it may be a geographical thing but where I live lockdowns weren't well observed either , including two of the four local pubs and a gym having illegal lock ins. Older people were careful but younger ones were acting 'like it was Creamfields', in the words of the local website. No. of course I don't think the behaviour in Westminster was 'good' - it was wrong, but given the type of people and the alcohol culture at Westminster always, it didn't particularly surprise me.
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Post by Jan on May 26, 2022 9:50:56 GMT
Number 10 was party central. And almost all those parties were organised and attended by civil servants, some of them ONLY by civil servants, rather than politicians and SPADS and if Labour took over tomorrow they'd all be still there, all those blurred faces being protected by the PCS union and the civil service HR department, all those people who report not to the politicians at all but to the head of the civil service Simon Case who hasn't even been fined for attending the event Boris and Sunak attended, people like Martin "We got away with it" Reynolds who is apparently going to be rewarded by being made an ambassador to Saudi rather than fired. And yet we have heard nothing from Starmer, or anyone else really, about how these civil service failings should and will be addressed.
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Post by Jan on May 26, 2022 10:10:47 GMT
... coming up with a wildly expensive and impractical scheme to ship refugees off to Africa It only looks expensive if you assume it will have no deterrent effect in reducing the number of cross-channel arrivals (currently 28,500 a year). If it reduces that number, as is likely, it will mean the government saves on the current hotel bill for housing those people (currently £4.7 million per day). If it reduces total arrivals by 50% it is approximately cost-neutral. I'm not sure it's impractical either, refugees from other countries have already been transferred to Rwanda (by the UN) and there are facilities already there - it may be currently impractical in UK legal terms.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2022 10:19:29 GMT
Over the last 5 or 6 years we have had Brexit, the pandemic and now the cost of living crisis so a lot of other policies have got pushed to the back burner. When Cummings was done for Barnard Castle how come some of these parties didn't come to light. Police are on duty at Downing Street and have the power to act as such but were they worried about losing plumb postings?
The Acting Met Comissioner is up in front of the London Assembley today so we might get some answers. Also who initiated the parties if it was Civil Servants then I'd see the Gov looking to place blame there if they could.
I think in the current situation that certain decisions have to be made and pushed through and we need someone who will just do "What needs to be done". Some protests are justified but others are just a nuisance and green policies at the moment are down the list when people need to eat and heat, likewise the tax on certain foods, better to eat unhealthily than not at all. Also with more jobs than people and set minimum wages people perhaps need to cut out none essentials to get through so less phone upgrades, designer clothes, new tattoos, subscriptions etc. Maybe Martyn Lewis should be Chancellor as he is one of few people who speaks sense.
Things I can see getting worse before they get better if costs rising we'll see the key workers wanting rises quite rightly and those who have the power to strike and cause major disruption doing so will use that weapon. There is talk of civil unrest I really hope this doesn't happen as it will just push more people to either side of the political extremes more.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2022 10:24:20 GMT
Number 10 was party central. And almost all those parties were organised and attended by civil servants, some of them ONLY by civil servants, rather than politicians and SPADS and if Labour took over tomorrow they'd all be still there, all those blurred faces being protected by the PCS union and the civil service HR department, all those people who report not to the politicians at all but to the head of the civil service Simon Case who hasn't even been fined for attending the event Boris and Sunak attended, people like Martin "We got away with it" Reynolds who is apparently going to be rewarded by being made an ambassador to Saudi rather than fired. And yet we have heard nothing from Starmer, or anyone else really, about how these civil service failings should and will be addressed. I doubt many of the people at party and rank and file PCS members, probably FDA or other specialist unions. At least Martin Reynolds won't be able to have alcohol in his new posting
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