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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 12:57:50 GMT
People forget this is a government that wanted us to catch the virus and deal with it, when the entire world was saying otherwise. This approach has never changed - the only adjustment was creating a lockdown to stop the NHS being overwhelmed (because letâs be honest, if the NHS ever said they couldnât treat or assist everyone who needed it in the middle of a pandemic then there would be an almighty roar of a backlash - I actually dread to think what would happen).
Now that the NHS is coping with the number of admissions, lockdown can be relaxed and on the face of it, the government are literally gambling with a second wave in the hope they can fill the coffers back up a bit first.... whilst hoping the Oxford âvaccineâ works and can go into production in September (which isnât a vaccine at all - it just stops the virus attacking the lungs, though that will undoubtably reduce the risk of death).
Yet if the âvaccineâ works the party line remains the same - you should expect to get it, but perhaps not expect to die from it... so leave home and go to work, but avoid everyone until we have an actual cure. But work and pay your taxes so we can pay you if R goes too high again.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 14:47:29 GMT
I find the 3Cs model from Japan to be compelling advice and messaging, particularly as opening up happens around the world. Avoid:
1. closed spaces with poor ventilation
2. crowded places with many people nearby
2. close-contact settings such as close-range conversations
Density and duration of interactions also weigh on my mind when making choices.
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Post by theatreian on May 30, 2020 14:47:40 GMT
The situation is quite difficult at the moment with regard to messaging, but as said previously we all know the basics of the rukes and it is up to us all individually how we accept the risk of doing various things in line with the rules. Pictures of crowds on beaches etc obviously confuse the issue , but they are obviously quite happy to accept the risk of getting the virus for the sake of lying on a beach. It is not the governments job to micro manage every aspect of our lives nor pay everyone for doing nothing for evermore. Everyone has choices to make within their means and hopefully most will make the choice to carry on with life as much as possible while still following the basics of social distancing and other hygiene rules until the virus is under control or a vaccine is found. There are no easy answers to this, but lets hope we can get through it together without too much further damage.
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Post by sf on May 30, 2020 15:20:46 GMT
Pictures of crowds on beaches etc obviously confuse the issue , but they are obviously quite happy to accept the risk of getting the virus for the sake of lying on a beach. ...and that would be fine if the risk was just to themselves.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 15:48:13 GMT
Pictures of crowds on beaches etc obviously confuse the issue , but they are obviously quite happy to accept the risk of getting the virus for the sake of lying on a beach. ...and that would be fine if the risk was just to themselves.
It might be - depends on their circumstances. They might be a single household who otherwise don't go out except to the supermarket if they have to. People have to be allowed to judge their risk level taking into account their own circumstances in the round otherwise the country will never function unless there is a vaccine, which may never happen. Not everyone is ever going to be in contact with someone vulnerable, and those who arent need to keep things going for the rest who have to shield. |
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Post by talkingheads on May 30, 2020 15:54:36 GMT
...and that would be fine if the risk was just to themselves.
It might be - depends on their circumstances. They might be a single household who otherwise don't go out except to the supermarket if they have to. People have to be allowed to judge their risk level taking into account their own circumstances in the round otherwise the country will never function unless there is a vaccine, which may never happen. Not everyone is ever going to be in contact with someone vulnerable, and those who arent need to keep things going for the rest who have to shield. [br It's a catch 22. Not everyone you come into contact with will be vulnerable. But those you do might themselves come into contact with someone vulnerable. |
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Post by Latecomer on May 30, 2020 16:15:28 GMT
Iâd be fine with people deciding to take the risk....but not with them having my oxygen and bed if I need it, having followed the rules....Plus I think it it selfish not to think of all the NHS workers that would have to deal with being overwhelmed with sick patients.
So...we obey the rules, for everyone please. Itâs called society.
By the same token we really should think about helping the poor and the young as we seem to be expecting a lot from them at the moment to protect some of those big flash car owners sipping wine in lockdown gardens....And not forgetting that delivery driver/bin man/care worker/teacher/NHS worker etc etc etc
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Post by sf on May 30, 2020 16:18:27 GMT
...and that would be fine if the risk was just to themselves.
It might be - depends on their circumstances. They might be a single household who otherwise don't go out except to the supermarket if they have to. People have to be allowed to judge their risk level taking into account their own circumstances in the round otherwise the country will never function unless there is a vaccine, which may never happen. Not everyone is ever going to be in contact with someone vulnerable, and those who arent need to keep things going for the rest who have to shield.
You're missing the point. One of the things we know about this virus is that there is a period of a few days in which a person who has been infected is contagious but not showing symptoms.
Or to put it another way, however careful we might be, without regular testing we simply do not know whether we are carrying the virus ourselves, and whether we are therefore putting other people at risk when we go out.
It is not simply about managing the risks to ourselves. It is also incumbent upon every one of us NOT to inadvertently put other people at risk.
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Post by theatremadness on May 30, 2020 16:22:01 GMT
...nor pay everyone for doing nothing for evermore. Your privilege really shows with sentences like this. |
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Post by NeilVHughes on May 30, 2020 16:30:44 GMT
âBut the rest of us need to step up our game and actually use our brains now. It's up to us to win this fight. It's not going to be won for usâ
@thematthew
The cat is out of the bag.
The new normal will be that a few hundred people will die of Covid-19 every day and is most probably as good as it will get for the foreseeable future until we get a vaccine or enough of us have caught it.
The shame is that the new normal is in three figures rather than two because we began to ease restrictions about two weeks too early.
I prefer the Scottish mantra:
Stop, Think and Protect.
Donât blindly carry on as if everything is as it was, Research the risks around you and act appropriately, make protecting all of us your priority as this in the long term will protect you.
I will continue to provide information on risk quantification where I can but your actions are your own but do try to understand the impact of your actions on yourself and others.
The majority of us cannot continue in stasis and we have to start intelligently and cautiously interacting with the now more dangerous world outside our front doors.
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Post by theatreian on May 30, 2020 16:34:58 GMT
I am not privileged as I am retired and with a low pension. I agreed with the measures the government made to protect jobs etc with the furlough scheme and I actually agree it should be extended in certain sectors which will find it difficult to return such as hospitality etc. The point I was making, probably not too well put was that we can't go on paying everyone without an end date in mind. I guess the situation with the economy will need to be reevaluated continually over the coming months to assess if further measures are needed. I have great sympathy with anyone suffering due to finance reasons or any other for that matter. I apologise if that did not come across. We all have to play our own part in ensuring this dreadful situation is eased as soon as possible.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 16:51:33 GMT
So why treat each differently? Suggest masks for some (which people are wilfully ignoring anyway, unlike in most other countries) or totally deny the importance of masks elsewhere? Close some but not others? Why the difference? Having no consistency kills a message. Things have to be treated differently because a one size fits all policy is never going to work. In fact I think one of the biggest problems we face is that people keep demanding a simple message, but you can't deal with a complex situation using simplistic "just do this" rules. This is not about simple messages it is about clear messages. My primary point about masks is going unanswered. Wear masks indoors where you are in contact with the same people for longer than five minutes. That's pretty easy to sell and remember. It follows what we know about the science about transmission, is clear, and can be followed anywhere, whether it be public transport or a school. Yet, we are now in a position where very few think it is important at all, despite countries that have had success finding that it matters. On dentists (which I didn't mention), then 'you can' or 'you can't' is, again, easy to understand and implement. No problem there and, allied with other regulations about masks, it would help to create a safe environment. Look out of the window, look at what people are doing now. I don't know about where you are but the last couple of months may as well not have happened. As far as too many are concerned, it's back to normal. That comes from unclear messages. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 16:59:37 GMT
As mentioned, the Japanese 3 C's messaging is good. Also, don't forget that they already have the mask wearing culture that we would do well to emulate. The one needs the other to be effective.  |
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Post by talkingheads on May 30, 2020 17:02:57 GMT
I am not privileged as I am retired and with a low pension. I agreed with the measures the government made to protect jobs etc with the furlough scheme and I actually agree it should be extended in certain sectors which will find it difficult to return such as hospitality etc. The point I was making, probably not too well put was that we can't go on paying everyone without an end date in mind. I guess the situation with the economy will need to be reevaluated continually over the coming months to assess if further measures are needed. I have great sympathy with anyone suffering due to finance reasons or any other for that matter. I apologise if that did not come across. We all have to play our own part in ensuring this dreadful situation is eased as soon as possible. If you have to risk your life to work minimum wage during a pandemic just to keep a roof over your head, then society needs reevaluation. Universal Basic Income is inevitable anyway due to automation, this could push things forward. |
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Post by londonpostie on May 30, 2020 17:12:16 GMT
Probably says something about me but I've literally never been on a beach in my life when people not in my group were less that 6' away.
All I see in relation to beaches is a great photo op with a wide angle lens reducing distances.You are far closer in Tesco Metro.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 17:15:04 GMT
As mentioned, the Japanese 3 C's messaging is good. Now that is the sort of message I think we need to be getting across. It addresses the actual danger â proximity to other people â rather than some vague proxy for the danger that may or may not actually be dangerous. I'm rather disappointed that some Conservative MPs want to reduce the 2m distancing rule, preferring 1.5m. A lot of the relaxation of the lockdown is based around the idea that the 2m distance is still in force, not to mention that people are used to observing 2m and there's tape and paint everywhere by now. |
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Post by londonpostie on May 30, 2020 18:09:52 GMT
1.5 is surely about offices.
The mixed messaging is intentional. Difficult to think people this wealthy are this stupid.
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Post by lynette on May 30, 2020 18:23:21 GMT
The Japanese donât shake hands and donât intrude into your space in a conversation, they duck away. Also they wear masks in the big cities anyway. The whole place is scrupulously clean. You can eat your dinner off any surface. There are clean public toilets in the parks. No litter. But is is certainly a crowded place especially in the big cities. The crowds shopping have to be seen to be believed, makes Oxford Street before Xmas look miserable. But of course they also have a lot of old people who might be vulnerable.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 18:32:24 GMT
I will continue to provide information on risk quantification where I can but your actions are your own but do try to understand the impact of your actions on yourself and others. The majority of us cannot continue in stasis and we have to start intelligently and cautiously interacting with the now more dangerous world outside our front doors. And that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Not going out is no longer the solution for everyone, as a one track approach cannot be sustained without serious consequences, including deaths, elsewhere. People who can have to start evaluating their own risk and that of those around them and acting accordingly, inching slowly towards a new normal. |
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Post by theatremadness on May 30, 2020 19:03:28 GMT
I am not privileged as I am retired and with a low pension. I agreed with the measures the government made to protect jobs etc with the furlough scheme and I actually agree it should be extended in certain sectors which will find it difficult to return such as hospitality etc. The point I was making, probably not too well put was that we can't go on paying everyone without an end date in mind. I guess the situation with the economy will need to be reevaluated continually over the coming months to assess if further measures are needed. I have great sympathy with anyone suffering due to finance reasons or any other for that matter. I apologise if that did not come across. We all have to play our own part in ensuring this dreadful situation is eased as soon as possible. I completely understand and appreciate the clarification. I tend to go on the defensive when the âpeople love furlough/SEISS because they're lazyâ even vaguely rears itâs head. I would love nothing more than to get back to work, preferably yesterday, but both mine and my Dad's areas of work (we do different things) will most likely be among the very, very last to resume due to their natures, with government support for both industries seemingly invisible. So without the financial support, our incomes are at precisely ÂŁ0 and there is nothing we can do until it is safe. We are the lucky ones! Some fall through all gaps in all schemes so have been earning ÂŁ0 since lockdown started. So I too apologise if it came off harsh, but as you've stated, everyone's reality is different. One of the many problems I have with this government is their decision to protect the economy at this stage and stopping any financial support forces the decision into the hands of the worker. Donât go to work and get no support to live, potentially even lose your job, or go to work in unsafe conditions just to be able to live. Which working in unsafe conditions may then sort that out for you anyway. |
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Post by xanady on May 30, 2020 21:20:28 GMT
Friend of mine in Brighton said the beaches were over-run today...no social-distancing apparent...this is a wanton disregard of the rules and appears to have been played out all over the country...one twitter commentator said that if Covid was a person it would be rubbing its hands in expectant greed right now!
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Post by londonpostie on May 31, 2020 9:41:56 GMT
I saw a lot of people disregarding Gov advise yesterday, inc. half a dozen police vans full trying to disperse a house party of dozens and dozens on an estate nearby. It's mostly teenagers though, almost entirely under 30s. Teenagers are close to immune and I'd certainly risk the hit at their horny-as-hell age. It's what happens when they go home that will feed into stats towards the end of June.
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Post by xanady on May 31, 2020 15:07:14 GMT
Beauty spots all over the country totally over-run...huge demo in London with no social distancing...people think they are invincible...they are not...the virus will end people regardless of age,status or health history
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Post by londonpostie on May 31, 2020 15:21:45 GMT
Yep, no one I spoke with - a self-selecting group by virtue of being out and about - has the slightest regard for Gov info. Common sense is the guideline now, and sometimes no sense.
And it is interesting how different age and friend/family groups are practicing that. No more of one-size-fits-all; people are doing their thing, mostly responsibly from what I've seen. Teenagers though, and early twenties, probably the house-sharer-renters as well ... another world.
Photographs and helicopters ..not interested. Bitten way to often by that bullsh*t manipulation.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 15:23:10 GMT
Just finished work and walked home along the seafront in Brightonâs and it is HEAVING with exactly 0 social distancing!
Itâs a shame coz everything is closed so the local economy wonât gain and we have everything to loose
Just walked past my nearest square and there is a 6 piece band (with proper massive amps) playing to a crowd of over 100!
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