2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 25, 2020 12:09:19 GMT
Establishment telling you that fella, don't fall for it. I do agree, if he had said lots of the policies resonated he would have been right. Wondering when I became a Democratic Socialist though ‘The establishment’ did not decide this, millions of voters did. The press were much weaker in their attacks on Corbyn this time, yet Labour lost seats hand over fist. That’s the electorate talking, you’d find it useful to heed them. You became a Democratic Socialist when you joined the Labour Party. If you weren’t, you’d be an authoritarian socialist better fitted to one of the fringe Marxist-Leninist groupings. Press were weaker on Corbyn, he he. Brexit election fella, always going to be a big deciding factor for lots of voters and lots of Labour voting areas. Still not sure we should become Tory light as we might get elected once in awhile. Rather keep my principles and work for a better society that way. Not sure I gain much by supporting that model. Still think it is a big wow that as a Socialist I am more suited to a fringe Marxist group. You are miles out there fella. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 12:28:23 GMT
‘The establishment’ did not decide this, millions of voters did. The press were much weaker in their attacks on Corbyn this time, yet Labour lost seats hand over fist. That’s the electorate talking, you’d find it useful to heed them. You became a Democratic Socialist when you joined the Labour Party. If you weren’t, you’d be an authoritarian socialist better fitted to one of the fringe Marxist-Leninist groupings. Press were weaker on Corbyn, he he. Brexit election fella, always going to be a big deciding factor for lots of voters and lots of Labour voting areas. Still not sure we should become Tory light as we might get elected once in awhile. Rather keep my principles and work for a better society that way. Not sure I gain much by supporting that model. Still think it is a big wow that as a Socialist I am more suited to a fringe Marxist group. You are miles out there fella. If you think that the way to state owned means of production is through non-democratic means then I think it might not be me that is ‘out there’. Maybe you are younger, as someone my age (mid fifties) would know the important distinction of ‘democratic’, having grown up in the shadow of state socialism in the Eastern bloc and how it impacted on those in the west. You’re either in favour of socialism through democratic means or you are not, wanting a one party state. There is no in between there. Brexit was just the graspable that allowed such voters to change, the truth is deeper and much more complex than that. Simplistic denialism will not work, why was Johnson trusted as much as Corbyn on the NHS for example? Dig deep, face the difficult and embarrassing questions head on rather than head in the sand, one more push rubbish. Of the candidates left, Nandy would appear to be the one that understands just how deep these problems are. ”Not sure I gain much by supporting that model.” Those who are on zero hours contracts, those who are relying on a disappearing GP system, those who see their earnings disappearing into the hands of landlords rather than being able to own a property stand up and applaud you for your self denial. God forbid if there was a party that put their needs first, rather than feeling good about themselves. |
|
1,972 posts
|
Post by sf on Jan 25, 2020 14:07:50 GMT
Democratic Socialist. Would you at least agree on that? Bottom line, the Corbyn has ended in disaster (this ‘we won the argument is just the most twisted, sickest joke ever). They tried, they failed, if the public don’t want what you offer then you have to offer something different. Establishment telling you that fella, don't fall for it. I do agree, if he had said lots of the policies resonated he would have been right.
Indeed. Labour's policies resonated with the electorate so strongly that they lost 59 seats.
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 25, 2020 15:44:00 GMT
Establishment telling you that fella, don't fall for it. I do agree, if he had said lots of the policies resonated he would have been right.
Indeed. Labour's policies resonated with the electorate so strongly that they lost 59 seats.
You know as well as I do this was very much a Brexit election. Me and you had this debate about Labour's position and how this would play across the Midlands and the North two years ago. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 16:54:51 GMT
In the election Brexit was a wedge issue, Very quickly it was made into one by Johnson and co., so that it covered for a host of other issues. The biggest failure was way that Conservative remainers stayed pretty much wholly with the Conservatives. Why, when Lexiters went the other way in great numbers? Because Corbyn. His positioning and ‘leadership’ meant that a majority to remain was scythed apart because of him. The underlying concerns on his positions flooded out because of the wedge issue, it was the the door left wide open.
|
|
|
|
Post by londonpostie on Jan 25, 2020 22:11:48 GMT
It wasn't a 'wedge issue', it was the entire reason there was an election. Manifesto's were reduced to one sentence.
|
|
1,972 posts
|
Post by sf on Jan 25, 2020 23:58:28 GMT
Indeed. Labour's policies resonated with the electorate so strongly that they lost 59 seats.
You know as well as I do this was very much a Brexit election. Me and you had this debate about Labour's position and how this would play across the Midlands and the North two years ago.
...and if Labour's policies had resonated with the electorate to any meaningful degree, or if Labour's leader was considered by the wider electorate to be in any way competent, it might not have been a single-issue election.
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 26, 2020 9:21:11 GMT
Press were weaker on Corbyn, he he. Brexit election fella, always going to be a big deciding factor for lots of voters and lots of Labour voting areas. Still not sure we should become Tory light as we might get elected once in awhile. Rather keep my principles and work for a better society that way. Not sure I gain much by supporting that model. Still think it is a big wow that as a Socialist I am more suited to a fringe Marxist group. You are miles out there fella. If you think that the way to state owned means of production is through non-democratic means then I think it might not be me that is ‘out there’. Maybe you are younger, as someone my age (mid fifties) would know the important distinction of ‘democratic’, having grown up in the shadow of state socialism in the Eastern bloc and how it impacted on those in the west. You’re either in favour of socialism through democratic means or you are not, wanting a one party state. There is no in between there. Brexit was just the graspable that allowed such voters to change, the truth is deeper and much more complex than that. Simplistic denialism will not work, why was Johnson trusted as much as Corbyn on the NHS for example? Dig deep, face the difficult and embarrassing questions head on rather than head in the sand, one more push rubbish. Of the candidates left, Nandy would appear to be the one that understands just how deep these problems are. ”Not sure I gain much by supporting that model.” Those who are on zero hours contracts, those who are relying on a disappearing GP system, those who see their earnings disappearing into the hands of landlords rather than being able to own a property stand up and applaud you for your self denial. God forbid if there was a party that put their needs first, rather than feeling good about themselves. Your best post that, at least you have rowed back from calling me a Marxist and I can stop laughing. Getting to the heart of the problem now. I think Corbyn's biggest problem, outside of the position the party took on Brexit, is building on that huge grass roots network he has built. Big discussion at last CLP meeting about this and how we translate this into policies and help on the ground and how we can win back traditional support across the Midlands and North. Corbyn discussed this but it was never put into action. Probably due to constant fire fighting but it continues to be a missed opportunity. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 11:53:15 GMT
Your best post that, at least you have rowed back from calling me a Marxist and I can stop laughing. Getting to the heart of the problem now. I think Corbyn's biggest problem, outside of the position the party took on Brexit, is building on that huge grass roots network he has built. Big discussion at last CLP meeting about this and how we translate this into policies and help on the ground and how we can win back traditional support across the Midlands and North. Corbyn discussed this but it was never put into action. Probably due to constant fire fighting but it continues to be a missed opportunity. Where did I suggest you were a Marxist! You were the one who baulked at the word democratic! Corbyn is yesterday’s man, he’s out now and the next leader will be marking the direction. The problem is not the Midlands and the North, the problem is that Labour is seen as a metropolitan party. Large support in major cities is not enough for an election win. Give those from a town based constituency the reins and that will help. Somewhere like Wigan.... |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 26, 2020 19:30:40 GMT
Your best post that, at least you have rowed back from calling me a Marxist and I can stop laughing. Getting to the heart of the problem now. I think Corbyn's biggest problem, outside of the position the party took on Brexit, is building on that huge grass roots network he has built. Big discussion at last CLP meeting about this and how we translate this into policies and help on the ground and how we can win back traditional support across the Midlands and North. Corbyn discussed this but it was never put into action. Probably due to constant fire fighting but it continues to be a missed opportunity. Where did I suggest you were a Marxist! You were the one who baulked at the word democratic! Corbyn is yesterday’s man, he’s out now and the next leader will be marking the direction. The problem is not the Midlands and the North, the problem is that Labour is seen as a metropolitan party. Large support in major cities is not enough for an election win. Give those from a town based constituency the reins and that will help. Somewhere like Wigan.... Is that cheap to use Democratic in that way in that sentence? Suggest you look two posts back. You said being a socialist I would be better in a fringe Marxist group. Anyway, I'm really proud of the help given to our local food banks, the work we are doing with homeless people and with local hospitals. Big wins for the party in these areas I think and real difference we can make to some peoples lives. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 21:36:52 GMT
Where did I suggest you were a Marxist! You were the one who baulked at the word democratic! Corbyn is yesterday’s man, he’s out now and the next leader will be marking the direction. The problem is not the Midlands and the North, the problem is that Labour is seen as a metropolitan party. Large support in major cities is not enough for an election win. Give those from a town based constituency the reins and that will help. Somewhere like Wigan.... Is that cheap to use Democratic in that way in that sentence? Suggest you look two posts back. You said being a socialist I would be better in a fringe Marxist group. Anyway, I'm really proud of the help given to our local food banks, the work we are doing with homeless people and with local hospitals. Big wins for the party in these areas I think and real difference we can make to some peoples lives. Is Democratic Socialist really not a term used anymore? It’s probably one of the clearest descriptions of Labour’s position. if you are fighting elections then, by definition, you are a Democratic Socialist. I really don’t get why you seem so wary of the term. The other possibility is to be in favour of socialism by authoritarian means, which you clearly aren’t as you worked on the election. So I didn’t refer to you at all. Also, as per the repository of all knowledge that is Wikipedia “Corbyn self-identifies as a democratic socialist.” Well, derr, he’s been an MP for decades, what else would he be? |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 27, 2020 18:32:49 GMT
Is that cheap to use Democratic in that way in that sentence? Suggest you look two posts back. You said being a socialist I would be better in a fringe Marxist group. Anyway, I'm really proud of the help given to our local food banks, the work we are doing with homeless people and with local hospitals. Big wins for the party in these areas I think and real difference we can make to some peoples lives. Is Democratic Socialist really not a term used anymore? It’s probably one of the clearest descriptions of Labour’s position. if you are fighting elections then, by definition, you are a Democratic Socialist. I really don’t get why you seem so wary of the term. The other possibility is to be in favour of socialism by authoritarian means, which you clearly aren’t as you worked on the election. So I didn’t refer to you at all. Also, as per the repository of all knowledge that is Wikipedia “Corbyn self-identifies as a democratic socialist.” Well, derr, he’s been an MP for decades, what else would he be? I'm not wary of the term, I just think there is a better one. Len McClusky was in the Halfy in Liverpool Saturday. How do you reckon he identifies himself? He was also laughing hysterically at your Marxist comment. Then found out my today my sister was with Jeremy Corbyn Saturday. Well, at the same football match at Blyth Spartans. I could have got the answer direct from the horses mouth. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 22:29:59 GMT
Is Democratic Socialist really not a term used anymore? It’s probably one of the clearest descriptions of Labour’s position. if you are fighting elections then, by definition, you are a Democratic Socialist. I really don’t get why you seem so wary of the term. The other possibility is to be in favour of socialism by authoritarian means, which you clearly aren’t as you worked on the election. So I didn’t refer to you at all. Also, as per the repository of all knowledge that is Wikipedia “Corbyn self-identifies as a democratic socialist.” Well, derr, he’s been an MP for decades, what else would he be? I'm not wary of the term, I just think there is a better one. Len McClusky was in the Halfy in Liverpool Saturday. How do you reckon he identifies himself? He was also laughing hysterically at your Marxist comment. Then found out my today my sister was with Jeremy Corbyn Saturday. Well, at the same football match at Blyth Spartans. I could have got the answer direct from the horses mouth. What part of saying that you couldn’t remain in the Labour party if you are a Marxist-Leninist (the only comment I’ve made on Marxism unless you’ve got me mixed up with someone else), does McCluskey find so hilarious? The whole point of Marxist-Leninism (note the distinction from other shades) is to foment a worker’s revolution, not to slog around getting a parliamentary majority (and, yes, I read Marx as a younger man and had endless discussions on the path to Socialism, various isms and such, of which this circular exchange is a sad reminder). Then again, given his record, I can imagine that McCluskey would inevitably fail to see that incompatibility. He’s a dead weight on the Labour Party. You are doing your cause no good by linking to people like him. So, who do you support? Maybe that would give a clearer idea as to what you are trying to say. |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 28, 2020 21:18:43 GMT
I'm not wary of the term, I just think there is a better one. Len McClusky was in the Halfy in Liverpool Saturday. How do you reckon he identifies himself? He was also laughing hysterically at your Marxist comment. Then found out my today my sister was with Jeremy Corbyn Saturday. Well, at the same football match at Blyth Spartans. I could have got the answer direct from the horses mouth. What part of saying that you couldn’t remain in the Labour party if you are a Marxist-Leninist (the only comment I’ve made on Marxism unless you’ve got me mixed up with someone else), does McCluskey find so hilarious? The whole point of Marxist-Leninism (note the distinction from other shades) is to foment a worker’s revolution, not to slog around getting a parliamentary majority (and, yes, I read Marx as a younger man and had endless discussions on the path to Socialism, various isms and such, of which this circular exchange is a sad reminder). Then again, given his record, I can imagine that McCluskey would inevitably fail to see that incompatibility. He’s a dead weight on the Labour Party. You are doing your cause no good by linking to people like him. So, who do you support? Maybe that would give a clearer idea as to what you are trying to say. Met Uncle Len and all I can be is gutted I never told him I call you Chukka |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 2:13:34 GMT
What part of saying that you couldn’t remain in the Labour party if you are a Marxist-Leninist (the only comment I’ve made on Marxism unless you’ve got me mixed up with someone else), does McCluskey find so hilarious? The whole point of Marxist-Leninism (note the distinction from other shades) is to foment a worker’s revolution, not to slog around getting a parliamentary majority (and, yes, I read Marx as a younger man and had endless discussions on the path to Socialism, various isms and such, of which this circular exchange is a sad reminder). Then again, given his record, I can imagine that McCluskey would inevitably fail to see that incompatibility. He’s a dead weight on the Labour Party. You are doing your cause no good by linking to people like him. So, who do you support? Maybe that would give a clearer idea as to what you are trying to say. Met Uncle Len and all I can be is gutted I never told him I call you Chukka A politician who I agree with on many things. Honoured to be mentioned alongside him (Umunna that is, not the other guy). |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2020 16:08:51 GMT
I wonder how long Len McCluskey will carry on as the head of Unite, he'll turn 70 this summer and will celebrate 10 years in the job come next year so if his prefered candidate is chosen by Labour then might he be prepared to retire. It will certainly be interesting to see who replaces him as he has headed his union for a long time and is a very powerful Trade Unionist.
Whoever eventually replaces him will likewise have a big hand in the future direction of the Labour Party.
|
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 29, 2020 19:36:33 GMT
Met Uncle Len and all I can be is gutted I never told him I call you Chukka A politician who I agree with on many things. Honoured to be mentioned alongside him (Umunna that is, not the other guy). I don't want to build my part up, I didn't sit down and debate Das Kapital with McClusky. Just asked if a Socialist was how he would describe himself as a high ranking Labour member whilst passing at the bar. |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 1, 2020 13:17:15 GMT
Met Uncle Len and all I can be is gutted I never told him I call you Chukka A politician who I agree with on many things. Honoured to be mentioned alongside him (Umunna that is, not the other guy). Did you join the Chukker's Party? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 14:08:56 GMT
A politician who I agree with on many things. Honoured to be mentioned alongside him (Umunna that is, not the other guy). Did you join the Chukker's Party? I’ve not been a member of any party since the eighties. Each has too many things that I disagree with (including the Lib Dems), so voting is just a matter of trying to avoid the worst option and, hopefully, changing the electoral system so that we get parties that are relevant to now and not relics of a century ago. There are individual causes that I can get behind (internationalism, electoral reform etc.) but I can’t force myself to agree enough to a wide ranging policy platform. |
|
2,339 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Feb 2, 2020 9:53:07 GMT
Did you join the Chukker's Party? I’ve not been a member of any party since the eighties. Each has too many things that I disagree with (including the Lib Dems), so voting is just a matter of trying to avoid the worst option and, hopefully, changing the electoral system so that we get parties that are relevant to now and not relics of a century ago. There are individual causes that I can get behind (internationalism, electoral reform etc.) but I can’t force myself to agree enough to a wide ranging policy platform. No I meant the Tiggers, before he joined the Lib Dems but I take your point. Getting rid of the Tories was great in 1997 but it wasn't my party. I'd left long before Blair was elected. Can do some really good things outside of a political system or organisation also. |
|
5,159 posts
|
Post by TallPaul on Feb 24, 2020 17:05:24 GMT
I suspect it's a thankless job, but isn't it today that individual members (and supporters) can finally start to vote for their preferred candidate?
If Rebecca Long-Bailey is elected leader, the Conservatives will spend the next five years reminding everyone that she's Corbyn Mark II; if Keir Starmer is elected, they'll spend the next five years reminding everyone that he tried very hard to stop Brexit; and if Lisa Nandy is elected, the Conservatives probably don't need to do anything, except repeatedly ask "Who?".
My own view is that any party whose members, however small in number, think Yorkshire Tea should be boycotted for something it had no involvement in, deserves to spend many years in the political wilderness. And I don't even drink tea!
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 17:36:59 GMT
if Keir Starmer is elected, they'll spend the next five years reminding everyone that he tried very hard to stop Brexit That may or may not be an advantage, depending on how well Boris Johnson can deliver on the promises he made back when he thought it would be someone else's job to keep them. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2020 14:57:19 GMT
Things seem to have gone a bit quiet on this recently but with the floods, Covid 19, Harry and all the other stuff it isn't such headline news. I see the 3 remaining contenders are doing some public meetings in March which might be of interest to party voters.
|
|
