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Post by lynette on Jan 13, 2020 20:41:56 GMT
We have managed to get this far in political discussion without shedding internet blood so keep it nice people and cheerful. For my part I am learning from these discussions.
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Post by TallPaul on Jan 21, 2020 16:39:14 GMT
Well, it seems the 12 TheatreBoard members who voted for Jess Phillips are going to be disappointed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 17:13:51 GMT
I suppose Nandy would be the best option to take. Starmer isn’t exactly inspiring but maybe he could pave the way and make Labour more electable again. Unlike Kinnock (the elder), who took that role in tne righties, however, Starmer appears to think that getting people to be nice to each other is enough and I think it needs someone more prepared to be harsher.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 21, 2020 19:24:12 GMT
Well, it seems the 12 TheatreBoard members who voted for Jess Phillips are going to be disappointed. As I said. Not PM material. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 21, 2020 19:24:53 GMT
I suppose Nandy would be the best option to take. Starmer isn’t exactly inspiring but maybe he could pave the way and make Labour more electable again. Unlike Kinnock (the elder), who took that role in tne righties, however, Starmer appears to think that getting people to be nice to each other is enough and I think it needs someone more prepared to be harsher. Starmer is Neil Kinnock in that analogy isn't he? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 19:48:48 GMT
I suppose Nandy would be the best option to take. Starmer isn’t exactly inspiring but maybe he could pave the way and make Labour more electable again. Unlike Kinnock (the elder), who took that role in tne righties, however, Starmer appears to think that getting people to be nice to each other is enough and I think it needs someone more prepared to be harsher. Starmer is Neil Kinnock in that analogy isn't he? Yes, ‘tne righties’ would have read ‘the eighties’ but for a failure to poof read! I don’t think he has Kinnock’s understanding that, to move on, he has to take on the entryists, though. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 21, 2020 20:36:42 GMT
Starmer is Neil Kinnock in that analogy isn't he? Yes, ‘tne righties’ would have read ‘the eighties’ but for a failure to poof read! I don’t think he has Kinnock’s understanding that, to move on, he has to take on the entryists, though. I'm really confused now? Isn't Starmer the entryist?? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 23:26:15 GMT
Yes, ‘tne righties’ would have read ‘the eighties’ but for a failure to poof read! I don’t think he has Kinnock’s understanding that, to move on, he has to take on the entryists, though. I'm really confused now? Isn't Starmer the entryist?? Huh? As Kinnock himself has pointed out, the entryists he got rid of (and who Corbyn, in the eighties, campaigned to have remain in the Labour party) are the same or similar people that are back in. Starmer is most definitely not one of them. Also, ‘Poof read’? I’m going to need to have my screen permanently at 150% I think. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 22, 2020 9:16:02 GMT
I'm really confused now? Isn't Starmer the entryist?? Huh? As Kinnock himself has pointed out, the entryists he got rid of (and who Corbyn, in the eighties, campaigned to have remain in the Labour party) are the same or similar people that are back in. Starmer is most definitely not one of them. Also, ‘Poof read’? I’m going to need to have my screen permanently at 150% I think. He he, didn't spot the typo at all. So... right wing Labour leader expels left wingers from the party. They come back when Corbyn amazingly manages to wrestle control of the party back... but it is only fair now if Starmers supporters in the party are the one that can vote at this election and not socialists? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 12:37:36 GMT
Huh? As Kinnock himself has pointed out, the entryists he got rid of (and who Corbyn, in the eighties, campaigned to have remain in the Labour party) are the same or similar people that are back in. Starmer is most definitely not one of them. Also, ‘Poof read’? I’m going to need to have my screen permanently at 150% I think. He he, didn't spot the typo at all. So... right wing Labour leader expels left wingers from the party. They come back when Corbyn amazingly manages to wrestle control of the party back... but it is only fair now if Starmers supporters in the party are the one that can vote at this election and not socialists? I've tried to make sense of what you are saying but all I can think of is that you think that Starmer is right wing and the assorted Trots and fringe left activists are mainstream.
If so, the Labour party is dead for a long time, a mere talking shop, a place which makes activists feel good about themselves whilst having no ability to affect the real world. Under a PR system that sort of party would have a place but with FPTP they will only enable successive right wing governments (actual right wing governments, like the one we have now).
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 22, 2020 12:56:57 GMT
It would be interesting if the Jess voters moved their vote to their next favourite now maybe?
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 22, 2020 19:16:56 GMT
He he, didn't spot the typo at all. So... right wing Labour leader expels left wingers from the party. They come back when Corbyn amazingly manages to wrestle control of the party back... but it is only fair now if Starmers supporters in the party are the one that can vote at this election and not socialists? I've tried to make sense of what you are saying but all I can think of is that you think that Starmer is right wing and the assorted Trots and fringe left activists are mainstream.
First part we can surely agree on, Starmer is from the right of the party. Second part, I don't know one Trotskyist or fringe left wing activist in my CLP. Some really good, hard working Socialists lead the way though. This is from the left leaning Liverpool also. Asked the same question to a friend in the home counties. Been searching for these Trotskyite groups, he said we are all Keir Starmer down 'ere. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 21:41:37 GMT
I've tried to make sense of what you are saying but all I can think of is that you think that Starmer is right wing and the assorted Trots and fringe left activists are mainstream.
First part we can surely agree on, Starmer is from the right of the party. Second part, I don't know one Trotskyist or fringe left wing activist in my CLP. Some really good, hard working Socialists lead the way though. This is from the left leaning Liverpool also. Asked the same question to a friend in the home counties. Been searching for these Trotskyite groups, he said we are all Keir Starmer down 'ere. Starmer is pretty much the personification of a centre left politician. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 0:42:23 GMT
With the talk of Neil Kinnock above - don't forget he was the main reason that Labour didn't win the 1992 Election as people didn't trust him as PM. After 13 years of Tory rule that election was there for him to win but the rally in Sheffield when he started doing Oggy Oggy Oggy Oi Oi Oi I think really damaged him. There were rumours that the likes of Roy Hattersley and John Smith were stood there shaking their heads when he was doing this.
Neil Kinnock to be fair did a lot of the groundwork of moving the Labour Party to a more populist position on a number of key policies and with "Designer Socialism" laid the groundwork for what became new Labour. It was just that I think people had doubts over him as a PM.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jan 23, 2020 8:07:12 GMT
Not to mention the cringey “We’re alriiiiiight” chant. 😣
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Post by TallPaul on Jan 23, 2020 13:04:32 GMT
If the internet can be trusted on this occasion, the rally was held on 1 April 1992, which should probably have set the alarm bells ringing. I wonder which megastar was playing at the Arena on 31 March, or 2 April?
There is a certain irony to a Labour leader losing a general election in Sheffield, the heart (at that time) of the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire. Something else that can be blamed on the World Student Games...and we still haven't repaid the debt!
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 23, 2020 20:59:21 GMT
First part we can surely agree on, Starmer is from the right of the party. Second part, I don't know one Trotskyist or fringe left wing activist in my CLP. Some really good, hard working Socialists lead the way though. This is from the left leaning Liverpool also. Asked the same question to a friend in the home counties. Been searching for these Trotskyite groups, he said we are all Keir Starmer down 'ere. Starmer is pretty much the personification of a centre left politician. He's not that far left. Campbell never backing anyone over there |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 21:35:43 GMT
Starmer is pretty much the personification of a centre left politician. He's not that far left. Campbell never backing anyone over there Soft left, someone like Balls. Centre left, Starmer. Hard left, Corbyn. Far left, if in Labour they generally get kicked out like Galloway. n.b. I’m talking about nationally, not about internal Labour politics, which is where the confusion may lie. Right of the Labour party is still somewhat to the left nationally. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 24, 2020 19:31:07 GMT
He's not that far left. Campbell never backing anyone over there Soft left, someone like Balls. Centre left, Starmer. Hard left, Corbyn. Far left, if in Labour they generally get kicked out like Galloway. n.b. I’m talking about nationally, not about internal Labour politics, which is where the confusion may lie. Right of the Labour party is still somewhat to the left nationally. Since when did a socialist become hard left?? |
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Post by londonpostie on Jan 24, 2020 20:24:02 GMT
Pretty much 2 May 1997 – 27 June 2007.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 21:42:26 GMT
Soft left, someone like Balls. Centre left, Starmer. Hard left, Corbyn. Far left, if in Labour they generally get kicked out like Galloway. n.b. I’m talking about nationally, not about internal Labour politics, which is where the confusion may lie. Right of the Labour party is still somewhat to the left nationally. Since when did a socialist become hard left?? The Campaign Group has always been seen as hard left. They’ve always owned the term, so now they’re afraid of it? Corbyn fought against getting rid of Militant, that’s not the action of a democratic socialist. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 25, 2020 9:13:09 GMT
Since when did a socialist become hard left?? The Campaign Group has always been seen as hard left. They’ve always owned the term, so now they’re afraid of it? Corbyn fought against getting rid of Militant, that’s not the action of a democratic socialist. Come on fella, we're a socialist party, don't fall for the language |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 11:34:53 GMT
The Campaign Group has always been seen as hard left. They’ve always owned the term, so now they’re afraid of it? Corbyn fought against getting rid of Militant, that’s not the action of a democratic socialist. Come on fella, we're a socialist party, don't fall for the language Democratic Socialist. Would you at least agree on that? Bottom line, the Corbyn experiment has ended in disaster, just as it did with Foot (this ‘we won the argument’ is just the most twisted, sickest joke ever). They tried, they failed, if the public don’t want what you offer then you have to offer something different. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 25, 2020 11:50:33 GMT
Come on fella, we're a socialist party, don't fall for the language Democratic Socialist. Would you at least agree on that? Bottom line, the Corbyn has ended in disaster (this ‘we won the argument is just the most twisted, sickest joke ever). They tried, they failed, if the public don’t want what you offer then you have to offer something different. Establishment telling you that fella, don't fall for it. I do agree, if he had said lots of the policies resonated he would have been right. Wondering when I became a Democratic Socialist though |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 12:00:30 GMT
Democratic Socialist. Would you at least agree on that? Bottom line, the Corbyn has ended in disaster (this ‘we won the argument is just the most twisted, sickest joke ever). They tried, they failed, if the public don’t want what you offer then you have to offer something different. Establishment telling you that fella, don't fall for it. I do agree, if he had said lots of the policies resonated he would have been right. Wondering when I became a Democratic Socialist though ‘The establishment’ did not decide this, millions of voters did. The press were much weaker in their attacks on Corbyn this time, yet Labour lost seats hand over fist. That’s the electorate talking, you’d find it useful to heed them. You became a Democratic Socialist when you joined the Labour Party. If you weren’t, you’d be an authoritarian socialist better fitted to one of the fringe Marxist-Leninist groupings. |
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