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Post by steve10086 on Nov 5, 2021 13:23:53 GMT
No Oliver, He is saying that if he had truly collaborated with them, rather than saying ‘I’ve done this and I’d like you to do that to finish it off’. Imagine how amazing ‘Love Never Dies’ could have been from the start if he had matched with an appropriate collaborator, one with a soul that actually knew what romance was, or perish the thought, one that wanted to give the audience what they wanted. The score is sublime but was thrown away by attaching it to Elton & Forsyths ridiculous story and ludicrous twists. Tim Rice was his equal and clearly refused to take his sh!t any longer, hence their split. Totally. CM as producer, and Trevor Nunn or Hal Prince as director, also stood up to ALW and made the material as good as it could be. ALW needs that input, and for years now he’s just been using “yes men” then complaining about the results. |
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 13:32:52 GMT
No Oliver, He is saying that if he had truly collaborated with them, rather than saying ‘I’ve done this and I’d like you to do that to finish it off’. Imagine how amazing ‘Love Never Dies’ could have been from the start if he had matched with an appropriate collaborator, one with a soul that actually knew what romance was, or perish the thought, one that wanted to give the audience what they wanted. The score is sublime but was thrown away by attaching it to Elton & Forsyths ridiculous story and ludicrous twists. Tim Rice was his equal and clearly refused to take his sh!t any longer, hence their split. Totally. CM as producer, and Trevor Nunn or Hal Prince as director, also stood up to ALW and made the material as good as it could be. ALW needs that input, and for years now he’s just been using “yes men” then complaining about the results. This exactly. By all means have an idea but it needs a creative team to mould it into perfection.The arrogance is astounding. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 13:35:52 GMT
Even if it's true that he made a point of the NY Times review when he addressed the cast, I don't believe this was the real reason for his anger. He would likely have used that out of convenience as people do. There would have been something lurking in the background which likely had nothing to do with them. And the design wasn't that impressive either, especially when you've already sat on the big revolve for Cats, it's a nice little gimmick but nothing that really adds anything. And it’s a gimmick they won’t be able to replicate if it goes to Broadway, thereby removing yet another reason to see it! |
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 13:43:07 GMT
The new gimmick will be people in the front row paying double (at first) for Cinderella to spray paint them.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 14:38:37 GMT
No Oliver, He is saying that he should have truly collaborated with them, rather than saying ‘I’ve done this and I’d like you to do that to finish it off’. Imagine how amazing ‘Love Never Dies’ could have been from the start if he had matched with an appropriate collaborator, one with a soul that actually knew what romance was, or perish the thought, one that wanted to give the audience what they wanted. The score is sublime but was thrown away by attaching it to Elton & Forsyths ridiculous story and ludicrous twists. Tim Rice was his equal and clearly refused to take his sh!t any longer, hence their split. Ah, yes, I agree he should choose better collaborators, Love Never Dies, Stephen Ward and Beautiful Game are notable examples of this, and he has worked with few decent lyricists. However, it's totally unfair to blame him for everything that goes wrong and praise only his collaborators when things goes well (or when you just happen to like the musical). |
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Post by marob on Nov 5, 2021 14:41:35 GMT
I quite liked the show when I saw it, but agree it could do with a stronger book as a lot of the humour fell flat. Feel bad for the cast if they’re being made scapegoats.
I hate the Sea Witch song though, that can stay cut.
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 14:53:46 GMT
No Oliver, He is saying that he should have truly collaborated with them, rather than saying ‘I’ve done this and I’d like you to do that to finish it off’. Imagine how amazing ‘Love Never Dies’ could have been from the start if he had matched with an appropriate collaborator, one with a soul that actually knew what romance was, or perish the thought, one that wanted to give the audience what they wanted. The score is sublime but was thrown away by attaching it to Elton & Forsyths ridiculous story and ludicrous twists. Tim Rice was his equal and clearly refused to take his sh!t any longer, hence their split. Ah, yes, I agree he should choose better collaborators, Love Never Dies, Stephen Ward and Beautiful Game are notable examples of this, and he has worked with few decent lyricists. However, it's totally unfair to blame him for everything that goes wrong and praise only his collaborators when things goes well (or when you just happen to like the musical). But he is the top man Oliver, the same way you speak to the manager of a business when something goes wrong; it’s not the restaurant managers fault when your soup is cold, but they are there for you to blame. It is called ‘Andrew Lloyd Webbers Cinderella’ ergo he is to blame for any failings. (I don’t know why I’m even discussing this…I quite liked it, I could just see room for improvement). You seem somehow blinkered and unconvinced that he isn’t responsible somehow? Who do you blame for any failings Oliver or can you just not find any? I guess above all things I’m just not clear what drives him. He seems obsessed with fiddling & tweaking until he has a new idea. |
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Post by Jon on Nov 5, 2021 14:59:32 GMT
ALW and Cameron probably did listen to any criticism when they were young and up and coming but now they're rich old men with years of experience, they probably think that they are immune to any criticism and can do what they please.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 15:01:36 GMT
Even if it's true that he made a point of the NY Times review when he addressed the cast, I don't believe this was the real reason for his anger. He would likely have used that out of convenience as people do. There would have been something lurking in the background which likely had nothing to do with them. I saw the show yesterday for the first time and the only thing I can see lurking in the background is his realisation that this show is a terrible mess! The cast are trying their utmost to polish that turd and genuinely were the only reason I managed to sit through it all! There are signs of a potentially decent show in there but it needs chopping some of the overlong song and some of the 5 million reprises (which is the easy part) but the book and direction and structure of the show need a complete overhaul IMO. And the design wasn't that impressive either, especially when you've already sat on the big revolve for Cats, it's a nice little gimmick but nothing that really adds anything. And don't get me started on the 'great transformation' using huge screens dragged across the stage at the end of act 1, I've seen cleverer things done in am-dram shows above a pub. LOL Also does being a 'feminist cinderella' mean that every single woman on that stage is just a mean and bitter b*tch with pretty much no redeeming features? And knowing someone who actually sat on that stage during said phone call on Friday, everything in Baz's column is accurate in terms of what happened. What the REAL reason for his outburst was is obviously only for ALW to know, as he is the only person with access to his head, but I am pretty certain it was the NYT article. But whatever it was that triggered it, the outburst was aimed at the entirely wrong group of people. You know what ALW thinks and feels? Has he spoken to you about this (serious question)? I've addressed the comment about 'reprises" numerous times on the forum but I guess this shortsightedness will prevail. |
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Post by lolalou on Nov 5, 2021 15:26:00 GMT
Andy if you’re reading here
For me the music is gorgeous. Could do with some more musicians in the pit but the tunes are crowd pleasers.
The reprises and the little medley Cinderella sings towards the end should be axed though - they add little to the story. A proper romantic duet is needed somewhere though not just knob jokes. We get it, they’re friends but we need something later to seal the romance. Give the public what they want. They come across as siblings by the end.
The set is too sparse for a fairytale fantasy prettiest town - a tree stump and the ugliest fireplace you could find? - I’ll leave it there. Don’t be horrible to the designer though. I’m sure they’re currently following the book’s vision.
Not sure where the hate for the costumes has come from so don’t have a go there...they’re chocolate box pretty.
Apart from Cinderella’s look which is some elderly person’s idea of what a ‘not like other girls’ edgy rebel looks like (black lipstick, boots and ratty wig particularly heinous)
The book is the weakest link for me
I know you love jumping on the populist bandwagon and Emerald is the it girl at the mo. She may deserve her Oscar and applause in TV and film (shout out for Killing Eve - loved that- kudos) but ability to write a musical plot?...erm.
Cinderella is
Too long
Makes no sense in places
Has loose plot ends left flapping (Godmother - great song but a character that goes nowhere)
Too many unsympathetic characters with few redeeming features who we are supposed to care about
A leading man who’s a bit too wet (character not the person!)
Not funny (cutting the rape joke would be a start)
Has a dubious plot ‘twist’ with a previously under developed character.
Doesn’t bear too much scrutiny on the feminism front.
Zippel did you dirty with some of the lyrics - I beg cut the offensive lyrics in bad Cinderella.
An ok afternoon at the theatre with a clearly talented cast doing their best but a five star show? - not at the moment.
Never mind Broadway - could you please fix it here, first, for us?
Hope the UK wasn’t your experimental opening ‘out of town’ prior to Broadway thing...
Hope all goes well x
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Post by cezbear on Nov 5, 2021 15:29:26 GMT
Andy if you’re reading here For me the music is gorgeous. Could do with some more musicians in the pit but the tunes are crowd pleasers. The reprises and the little medley Cinderella sings towards the end should be axed though - they add little to the story. A proper romantic duet is needed somewhere though not just knob jokes. We get it, they’re friends but we need something later to seal the romance. Give the public what they want. They come across as siblings by the end. The set is too sparse for a fairytale fantasy prettiest town - a tree stump and the ugliest fireplace you could find? - I’ll leave it there. Don’t be horrible to the designer though. I’m sure they’re currently following the book’s vision. Not sure where the hate for the costumes has come from so don’t have a go there...they’re chocolate box pretty. Apart from Cinderella’s look which is some elderly person’s idea of what a ‘not like other girls’ edgy rebel looks like (black lipstick, boots and ratty wig particularly heinous) The book is the weakest link for me I know you love jumping on the populist bandwagon and Emerald is the it girl at the mo. She may deserve her Oscar and applause in TV and film (shout out for a Killing Eve - kudos) but ability to write a musical plot...erm. Cinderella is Too long Makes no sense in places Has loose plot ends left flapping (Godmother - great song but a character that goes nowhere) Too many unsympathetic characters with few redeeming features who we are supposed to care about A leading man who’s a bit too wet (character not the person!) Not funny (cutting the rape joke would be a start) Has a dubious plot ‘twist’ with a previously under developed character. Doesn’t bear too much scrutiny on the feminism front. Zippel did you dirty with some of the lyrics - I beg cut the offensive lyrics in bad Cinderella. An ok afternoon at the theatre with a clearly talented cast doing their best but a five star show? - not at the moment. Never mind Broadway - could you please fix it here, first, for us? Hope the UK wasn’t your experimental opening ‘out of town’ prior to Broadway thing... Hope all goes well x Excellent post, I really do enjoy the show but agree with almost all of this. I'd quite like to burn that awful wig, too. |
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Post by southstreet on Nov 5, 2021 15:31:26 GMT
You know what ALW thinks and feels? Has he spoken to you about this (serious question)? I've addressed the comment about 'reprises" numerous times on the forum but I guess this shortsightedness will prevail. Yes, of course I know what he thinks and feels, darling Oliver, I am clairvoyant, don't you know? At no point did I say that I know what he thinks or feels, I quite literally said nobody but him knows what triggered this outburst, but yes, I did hazard a guess that it was connected to the article. As for reprises, I haven't got time to look through 240-odd pages of comments to find what you previously might have addressed, but as a seasoned musical attendee I am very aware of the use of and reasons for reprises and themes in shows, but this one used it excessively, even by ALW's standards. But am happy to have my shortsightedness corrected by your 20/20 vision on the subject, so feel free to enlighten me. |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 15:57:11 GMT
Ah, yes, I agree he should choose better collaborators, Love Never Dies, Stephen Ward and Beautiful Game are notable examples of this, and he has worked with few decent lyricists. However, it's totally unfair to blame him for everything that goes wrong and praise only his collaborators when things goes well (or when you just happen to like the musical). But he is the top man Oliver, the same way you speak to the manager of a business when something goes wrong; it’s not the restaurant managers fault when your soup is cold, but they are there for you to blame. It is called ‘Andrew Lloyd Webbers Cinderella’ ergo he is to blame for any failings. (I don’t know why I’m even discussing this…I quite liked it, I could just see room for improvement). You seem somehow blinkered and unconvinced that he isn’t responsible somehow? Who do you blame for any failings Oliver or can you just not find any? I guess above all things I’m just not clear what drives him. He seems obsessed with fiddling & tweaking until he has a new idea. I agree that he must have a considerable amount of influence, but his collaborators are not young fledglings desperate to work with him at any cost. If they found the collaborative process unenjoyable they would simply work with someone else since most are very successful in their own right. The opposite is true - his collaborators have returned to work with him numerous times. If you are going to say that ALW is the top man and should be blamed for anything that goes wrong then, in order to be consistent, you should apply the same logic when things go right (right from your point of view). However, you and others on the forum do not do this. Instead you give most of the credit to his collaborators rather than him. |
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Post by scarpia on Nov 5, 2021 16:14:07 GMT
Since it never gets old, this seems like a nice moment to wheel out an old (apocryphal) joke that did the rounds in the late 80s... ALW to Alan Jay Lerner: Why do people take an instant dislike to me?Alan Jay Lerner to ALW: Because it saves time. Cards on the table, at least four of my favourite all-time shows are by ALW. However, I find his constant propensity to hype everything up as the best thing since sliced bread and then to dismiss it as soon as it fails and blame everyone else except himself tiresome and utterly predictable. I *want* ALW to have a good show that's not just a hit but also a quality piece. But i don't think we've really had that since Sunset, and I don't think we ever will again unless he actually works with peers who aren't dictated to but fight things out with him and stand their corner. He regularly says MT is a collaborative artform but there's precious little sign of that in recent years in his output. Time and time again he makes the same mistakes and those he's surrounded himself with don't call him out on it. When the Internet did once, he was too enraged and called them "fake and malicious bloggers". Had he listened, the show in question might not have been such a catastrophe. Thanks for your informative reply. It seems that you are blaming ALW solely for everything and anything that goes wrong. If his output is "good", according to you, then that's because his collaborators were good and despite ALW trying to get his own way even then, he was simply unable to because they were such strong and good creative personalities. Naturally if he had got his own way - and he undoubtedly tried but failed - those shows would have been terrible too, but thank god for his collaborators! All the praise should go to his collaborators if the musical is a success and all the criticism to ALW if it isn't. That would seem to be the sum of it. It seems to be you that has created this idea that some of us only credit his collaborators. Where was this ever said? I mean, I hate Love Never Dies and think it's irredeemable as a show, but aside from the idea (which IS ALW's fault), the worst thing about the show is Ben Elton's book. That is a failing of a collaborator. What you don't seem to appreciate, though, is that it was a collaborator who was *commissioned* to produce what ALW wanted. Frederick Forsyth was similarly *commissioned* by ALW to write the novel that book is loosely based on. Glenn Slater was brought onto the project as an afterthought after Tim Rice said no. Jack O'Brien did not have the idea for the show; he was hired by ALW and lost patience with ALW when ALW kept demanding things that Jack O'Brien felt he had already done (hence Bill Kenwright took over). ALW handpicked his collaborators, told them what he wanted, and the show was built around that vision. So while I have no time for Slater's work or Elton's work on that show, the whole enterprise is very much ALW's responsibility. |
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 16:15:24 GMT
Where did I say that the collaborators found the task of working with multi-millionaire composer ALW anything other than a laugh riot? NOWHERE.
Best not to put words in my mouth Oliver. Nobody wants to change your opinion, but maybe lay off the tiresome ‘ha! I proved you wrong schtick’. It’s great that you love him, carry on doing so, but don’t expect everyone to agree.
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Post by forevercolours on Nov 5, 2021 17:18:00 GMT
All of the promo for this show highlights that this is ANDREW LLOYD WEBBER’S Cinderella. His name is plastered all over it and always has been. He was there doing live performances with CHF back before the show opened and I feel like doing this puts all of the ownership on him. Yes, Emerald Fennell wrote the book and David Zippel wrote the lyrics, but their names are not put in lights as much as ALWs. This failing and being criticised is going to fall down solely on him. By (supposedly) having a go at his cast, he is trying to shift the blame for his own mishaps which is immature and quite frankly ridiculous. If this is all true, I wouldn’t go around trying to defend him.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 17:23:32 GMT
Where did I say that the collaborators found the task of working with multi-millionaire composer ALW anything other than a laugh riot? NOWHERE. Best not to put words in my mouth Oliver. Nobody wants to change your opinion, but maybe lay off the tiresome ‘ha! I proved you wrong schtick’. It’s great that you love him, carry on doing so, but don’t expect everyone to agree. Fair enough. However, I never said - or implied - I had "proved you wrong". How is that not putting words in my mouth? I was making a point about consistency. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 17:27:50 GMT
ALW denies that any of this phone call stuff actually happened. So…
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 17:34:47 GMT
Oliver- your tone is constantly slightly confrontational with a need to be right, or requiring proof of ‘facts’ in a world that thrives on gossip and half truths. Sometimes people just know stuff based on conversations etc and it would be inappropriate to disclose their source.
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Post by marob on Nov 5, 2021 17:35:38 GMT
BurlyBeaR The total lack of posts from the cast leaping to his defence and denying the story is rather telling though…
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Post by chernjam on Nov 5, 2021 17:39:30 GMT
A couple of things -
just to clarify again - this critic is for the NY Post, not the NY Times, and honestly, he does not have the influence/impact that Frank Rich had decades ago. So it's kind of interesting that there's this speculation that what was a "mixed" review caused all the consternation.
As to ALW and how he works/listens to criticism and such - what's strange to me was that his first bonafide hit (financially and otherwise) was School of Rock after he staged workshops in front of live audiences - that this didn't seem to happen with Cinderella. I remember hearing that he had done one at The Other Palace and reading some initial reviews, but it seemed much more hush hush and mostly industry people who were there rather than general theatre goers.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 17:39:39 GMT
BurlyBeaR The total lack of posts from the cast leaping to his defence and denying the story is rather telling though… Just providing a little balance! 😌 Anyway, I think we should stop directing comments at eachother and focus on the gossip and half truths (my favourite!) |
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 17:53:54 GMT
Sorry Dad. 😔
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 18:03:27 GMT
It all started to go wrong when alw moved away from other producers and started producing himself with RUG. With no Cameron or similar around, he is just surrounded by loads of yes men. Similarly very few creatures stand up to him, and Lawrence pretty much owes his career to Cameron and alw. Like anyone who blocks criticism, he has ended up living in an echo chamber
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Post by stagebyte on Nov 5, 2021 18:33:50 GMT
Talking of echo chambers of praise and dealing badly with criticism the leading lady is conspicuous by her absence on sm today. Followers have been treated to the minutiae of train journeys and stiff necks this week so even half an hour of silence is worrying.
Do you think the Lord has insisted on a media blackout today?
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