19,752 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 19:10:26 GMT
Talking of echo chambers of praise and dealing badly with criticism the leading lady is conspicuous by her absence on sm today. Followers have been treated to the minutiae of train journeys and stiff necks this week so even half an hour of silence is worrying. Do you think the Lord has insisted on a media blackout today? The one time Carrie isn’t making it all about her, it seems! |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 19:13:35 GMT
Andy if you’re reading here For me the music is gorgeous. Could do with some more musicians in the pit but the tunes are crowd pleasers. The reprises and the little medley Cinderella sings towards the end should be axed though - they add little to the story. A proper romantic duet is needed somewhere though not just knob jokes. We get it, they’re friends but we need something later to seal the romance. Give the public what they want. They come across as siblings by the end. The set is too sparse for a fairytale fantasy prettiest town - a tree stump and the ugliest fireplace you could find? - I’ll leave it there. Don’t be horrible to the designer though. I’m sure they’re currently following the book’s vision. Not sure where the hate for the costumes has come from so don’t have a go there...they’re chocolate box pretty. Apart from Cinderella’s look which is some elderly person’s idea of what a ‘not like other girls’ edgy rebel looks like (black lipstick, boots and ratty wig particularly heinous) The book is the weakest link for me I know you love jumping on the populist bandwagon and Emerald is the it girl at the mo. She may deserve her Oscar and applause in TV and film (shout out for Killing Eve - loved that- kudos) but ability to write a musical plot?...erm. Cinderella is Too long Makes no sense in places Has loose plot ends left flapping (Godmother - great song but a character that goes nowhere) Too many unsympathetic characters with few redeeming features who we are supposed to care about A leading man who’s a bit too wet (character not the person!) Not funny (cutting the rape joke would be a start) Has a dubious plot ‘twist’ with a previously under developed character. Doesn’t bear too much scrutiny on the feminism front. Zippel did you dirty with some of the lyrics - I beg cut the offensive lyrics in bad Cinderella. An ok afternoon at the theatre with a clearly talented cast doing their best but a five star show? - not at the moment. Never mind Broadway - could you please fix it here, first, for us? Hope the UK wasn’t your experimental opening ‘out of town’ prior to Broadway thing... Hope all goes well x Great post! I agree with most of your points although I don't think 'Bad Cinderella' is offensive. Not really. No one associates words like "loon" and "nutter" with the mentally ill, not anymore. Zippel has chosen these words because they are quaint and old-fashioned, in keeping with the world of Belville. It's a clever touch which makes Cinderella subtly subversive in this song. |
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Post by forevercolours on Nov 5, 2021 19:29:36 GMT
Andy if you’re reading here For me the music is gorgeous. Could do with some more musicians in the pit but the tunes are crowd pleasers. The reprises and the little medley Cinderella sings towards the end should be axed though - they add little to the story. A proper romantic duet is needed somewhere though not just knob jokes. We get it, they’re friends but we need something later to seal the romance. Give the public what they want. They come across as siblings by the end. The set is too sparse for a fairytale fantasy prettiest town - a tree stump and the ugliest fireplace you could find? - I’ll leave it there. Don’t be horrible to the designer though. I’m sure they’re currently following the book’s vision. Not sure where the hate for the costumes has come from so don’t have a go there...they’re chocolate box pretty. Apart from Cinderella’s look which is some elderly person’s idea of what a ‘not like other girls’ edgy rebel looks like (black lipstick, boots and ratty wig particularly heinous) The book is the weakest link for me I know you love jumping on the populist bandwagon and Emerald is the it girl at the mo. She may deserve her Oscar and applause in TV and film (shout out for Killing Eve - loved that- kudos) but ability to write a musical plot?...erm. Cinderella is Too long Makes no sense in places Has loose plot ends left flapping (Godmother - great song but a character that goes nowhere) Too many unsympathetic characters with few redeeming features who we are supposed to care about A leading man who’s a bit too wet (character not the person!) Not funny (cutting the rape joke would be a start) Has a dubious plot ‘twist’ with a previously under developed character. Doesn’t bear too much scrutiny on the feminism front. Zippel did you dirty with some of the lyrics - I beg cut the offensive lyrics in bad Cinderella. An ok afternoon at the theatre with a clearly talented cast doing their best but a five star show? - not at the moment. Never mind Broadway - could you please fix it here, first, for us? Hope the UK wasn’t your experimental opening ‘out of town’ prior to Broadway thing... Hope all goes well x Great post! I agree with most of your points although I don't think 'Bad Cinderella' is offensive. Not really. No one associates words like "loon" and "nutter" with the mentally ill, not anymore. Zippel has chosen these words because they are quaint and old-fashioned, in keeping with the world of Belville. It's a clever touch which makes Cinderella subtly subversive in this song. It’s also offensive because it’s a terrible song. |
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Post by stagebyte on Nov 5, 2021 19:34:48 GMT
Andy if you’re reading here For me the music is gorgeous. Could do with some more musicians in the pit but the tunes are crowd pleasers. The reprises and the little medley Cinderella sings towards the end should be axed though - they add little to the story. A proper romantic duet is needed somewhere though not just knob jokes. We get it, they’re friends but we need something later to seal the romance. Give the public what they want. They come across as siblings by the end. The set is too sparse for a fairytale fantasy prettiest town - a tree stump and the ugliest fireplace you could find? - I’ll leave it there. Don’t be horrible to the designer though. I’m sure they’re currently following the book’s vision. Not sure where the hate for the costumes has come from so don’t have a go there...they’re chocolate box pretty. Apart from Cinderella’s look which is some elderly person’s idea of what a ‘not like other girls’ edgy rebel looks like (black lipstick, boots and ratty wig particularly heinous) The book is the weakest link for me I know you love jumping on the populist bandwagon and Emerald is the it girl at the mo. She may deserve her Oscar and applause in TV and film (shout out for Killing Eve - loved that- kudos) but ability to write a musical plot?...erm. Cinderella is Too long Makes no sense in places Has loose plot ends left flapping (Godmother - great song but a character that goes nowhere) Too many unsympathetic characters with few redeeming features who we are supposed to care about A leading man who’s a bit too wet (character not the person!) Not funny (cutting the rape joke would be a start) Has a dubious plot ‘twist’ with a previously under developed character. Doesn’t bear too much scrutiny on the feminism front. Zippel did you dirty with some of the lyrics - I beg cut the offensive lyrics in bad Cinderella. An ok afternoon at the theatre with a clearly talented cast doing their best but a five star show? - not at the moment. Never mind Broadway - could you please fix it here, first, for us? Hope the UK wasn’t your experimental opening ‘out of town’ prior to Broadway thing... Hope all goes well x Great post! I agree with most of your points although I don't think 'Bad Cinderella' is offensive. Not really. No one associates words like "loon" and "nutter" with the mentally ill, Maybe not where you’re from Oliver. There were plenty of words he could’ve picked to demonstrate she was ‘bad’ - slurs used against the mentally ill like loon, nutter, barking mad are still used today - not a good look. And really unnecessary when he had a whole rhyming dictionary to choose from. |
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 19:38:49 GMT
Great post! I agree with most of your points although I don't think 'Bad Cinderella' is offensive. Not really. No one associates words like "loon" and "nutter" with the mentally ill, not anymore. Zippel has chosen these words because they are quaint and old-fashioned, in keeping with the world of Belville. It's a clever touch which makes Cinderella subtly subversive in this song. It’s also offensive because it’s a terrible song. I'm a bit disappointed by your reply. It's flippant and doesn't address the point I made. |
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Post by forevercolours on Nov 5, 2021 19:41:58 GMT
It’s also offensive because it’s a terrible song. I'm a bit disappointed by your reply. It's flippant and doesn't address the point I made. It’s flippant because it was meant to be. We could sit and debate about the language used within it when in reality, for the ‘title song’ of the musical, it is quite awful and not up to the standard we would expect from the main song of an ALW musical. |
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Post by max on Nov 5, 2021 19:46:34 GMT
I think 'loon' and 'nutter' are still associated with mental health, but not as taboo as some other words. I also think it's dramatically fine for Cinderella to face other people with the words that have been thrown at her.
I didn't notice any complaints about the 'gay son' song in 'Heathers' which contains slurs. Or the reference to paramilitary knee-capping in 'Legally Blonde'. I think for me it often depends on whether something is the core of the story or not (I don't think it is with 'Heathers' and 'Legally Blonde') but in 'Cinderella' the idea that if you don't keep in step with society you're seen as deranged and 'wired wrong' feels quite pertinent to how people who stand apart get viewed and spoken about.
We all have our taste thresholds though - and how good we think a show is also affects that: whether we think it's 'earned' the right to express certain things due to our sense of the quality/integrity it displays elsewhere. I haven't seen 'Cinderella' so can't have an opinion based on those qualities, or its full context.
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 19:47:57 GMT
Would it appear churlish of me to request a real life Cinderella thread and one for people who see it’s obvious weaknesses as strengths? Its lapses into archaic offensive language as quirky artistic decisions?
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 19:59:17 GMT
No chance 🙂. I’m afraid we’re all going to have to find a way of muddling through this together!
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Post by inthenose on Nov 5, 2021 22:28:53 GMT
The ALW phone call definitely happened. Why on earth is he denying it? They were called on stage prior to the show before the warm up for a call from ALW. Speakers had been set up on stage. They were expecting bum pats and a "we are all so proud of you" pep talk. Instead they got chewed out for over 10 minutes, reminded how lucky they are to be working, and told they "lack energy" amongst other things. The main thing was a pretty clear cut implication that he feels he may have got some of the casting wrong, which obviously went down as well as you'd expect. They came away a little shell shocked with some "key figures" visibly angry and upset.
100% reliable source.
Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so.
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Post by scarpia on Nov 5, 2021 22:45:05 GMT
The ALW phone call definitely happened. Why on earth is he denying it? They were called on stage prior to the show before the warm up for a call from ALW. Speakers had been set up on stage. They were expecting bum pats and a "we are all so proud of you" pep talk. Instead they got chewed out for over 10 minutes, reminded how lucky they are to be working, and told they "lack energy" amongst other things. The main thing was a pretty clear cut implication that he feels he may have got some of the casting wrong, which obviously went down as well as you'd expect. They came away a little shell shocked with some "key figures" visibly angry and upset. 100% reliable source. Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so. Out of curiosity, where has ALW acknowledged this happened and then denied it? |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 5, 2021 23:44:38 GMT
Posts removed. Thread locked.
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19,752 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 6, 2021 7:54:54 GMT
Thread opened.
Please focus on the topic and not other members.
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Post by stagebyte on Nov 6, 2021 8:04:09 GMT
]Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so. Don’t think some of the cast are bothered at this stage. Another cast appreciation post by one of the cast but the interesting line ‘And we’ve been through it ALL’ |
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Post by og on Nov 6, 2021 11:27:43 GMT
]Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so. Don’t think some of the cast are bothered at this stage. Another cast appreciation post by one of the cast but the interesting line ‘And we’ve been through it ALW’ fixed |
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Post by sophie92 on Nov 6, 2021 14:08:32 GMT
I’m really looking forward to Lauren Byrne’s Cinderella debut this afternoon - wanted to see this since she announced she was a cover.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 6, 2021 14:22:16 GMT
The ALW phone call definitely happened. Why on earth is he denying it? They were called on stage prior to the show before the warm up for a call from ALW. Speakers had been set up on stage. They were expecting bum pats and a "we are all so proud of you" pep talk. Instead they got chewed out for over 10 minutes, reminded how lucky they are to be working, and told they "lack energy" amongst other things. The main thing was a pretty clear cut implication that he feels he may have got some of the casting wrong, which obviously went down as well as you'd expect. They came away a little shell shocked with some "key figures" visibly angry and upset. 100% reliable source. Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so. As long as I wasn't the only member of the cast being singled out, I would be desperately trying to hold back laughter in that situation. How could anyone take a remote dressing down from Andrew Lloyd Webber over loud speakers seriously? Not if he sounded angry, maybe if he was absolutely calm. And what exactly would ALW have to gain by doing this? I'm sceptical that it happened at all. What is it that makes this source 100% reliable in your view? |
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Post by chernjam on Nov 6, 2021 14:32:50 GMT
TBH - whether ALW gave them a "dressing down" or not is kind of boring at this point to me. Is he not allowed to criticize actors/actresses? Are people that fragile that they can't deal with being challenged on their performances? A few weeks ago, people were lambasting CHF for her explanation of her lackluster outdoor performance this summer as being overly defensive and making excuses. Now ALW challenging the cast is considered outrageous? To me its more outrageous that these passive-aggressive tweets were made. Suck it up. You work for ALW who yes, has his strengths and weaknesses like every one of us. Deal with it or don't audition for the show.
I'm more curious about what sort of changes they are planning on incorporating 4 months after they previewed/ opened. It seems doubtful it would be something of significance like LND went through since (if I remember correctly) there was already a new creative team prepping the Australian production.
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19,752 posts
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 6, 2021 14:43:34 GMT
The fact that they’re changing elements of the show (if that proves to be true) would be a blatant acceptance by the creatives that something is wrong. Maybe there’s also something going on with the cast that ALW isn’t happy with. Or maybe because ALW now accepts there are problems with the show he had a word with the cast to make sure they know this thing isn’t a done deal, it’s vulnerable and how important it is to stay 100% “on it”.
People often hear one thing and interpret it completely differently. “ALW came for us and we’re working so haaaaaard on his shoooooooow! 😭” etc.
Or it might be none of that 😀
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Post by inthenose on Nov 6, 2021 14:58:28 GMT
The ALW phone call definitely happened. Why on earth is he denying it? They were called on stage prior to the show before the warm up for a call from ALW. Speakers had been set up on stage. They were expecting bum pats and a "we are all so proud of you" pep talk. Instead they got chewed out for over 10 minutes, reminded how lucky they are to be working, and told they "lack energy" amongst other things. The main thing was a pretty clear cut implication that he feels he may have got some of the casting wrong, which obviously went down as well as you'd expect. They came away a little shell shocked with some "key figures" visibly angry and upset. 100% reliable source. Oh, and they haven't been told not to discuss it publicly or been asked to sign NDA's or anything dramatic like that as some have suggested on SM. Everyone just knows it's career suicide to do so. As long as I wasn't the only member of the cast being singled out, I would be desperately trying to hold back laughter in that situation. How could anyone take a remote dressing down from Andrew Lloyd Webber over loud speakers seriously? Not if he sounded angry, maybe if he was absolutely calm. And what exactly would ALW have to gain by doing this? I'm sceptical that it happened at all. What is it that makes this source 100% reliable in your view? What makes them 100% reliable? They were one of the people being dressed down!!! |
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 15:23:14 GMT
I’m really looking forward to Lauren Byrne’s Cinderella debut this afternoon - wanted to see this since she announced she was a cover. Yes, pleased for her; and also for the whole cast. Whatever has happened this is a nice internal triumph they can all focus on, and be part of Lauren's debut as a tight team. |
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Post by max on Nov 6, 2021 15:29:19 GMT
TBH - whether ALW gave them a "dressing down" or not is kind of boring at this point to me. Is he not allowed to criticize actors/actresses? Are people that fragile that they can't deal with being challenged on their performances? A few weeks ago, people were lambasting CHF for her explanation of her lackluster outdoor performance this summer as being overly defensive and making excuses. Now ALW challenging the cast is considered outrageous? To me its more outrageous that these passive-aggressive tweets were made. Suck it up. You work for ALW who yes, has his strengths and weaknesses like every one of us. Deal with it or don't audition for the show. I'm more curious about what sort of changes they are planning on incorporating 4 months after they previewed/ opened. It seems doubtful it would be something of significance like LND went through since (if I remember correctly) there was already a new creative team prepping the Australian production. I agree with some of these comments, but when it comes to giving notes to a cast, 'dialling it in' is never right, particularly if there's any suggestion that any of them are 'dialling it in'. I mean....the irony. Re. LND, the initial London changes were by Bill Kenwright I believe (and were substantial), with the Australian production happening later and taking a further new look led by director Simon Phillips. Australia completely reconceived the staging, but didn't change the dramaturgy as much as the London changes had already done. |
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Post by Boob on Nov 6, 2021 15:42:22 GMT
Lloyd Webber needs to accept that his shows are almost always better when he has absolutely nothing to do with them.
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Post by horton on Nov 6, 2021 16:47:20 GMT
TBH - whether ALW gave them a "dressing down" or not is kind of boring at this point to me. Is he not allowed to criticize actors/actresses? Are people that fragile that they can't deal with being challenged on their performances? A few weeks ago, people were lambasting CHF for her explanation of her lackluster outdoor performance this summer as being overly defensive and making excuses. Now ALW challenging the cast is considered outrageous? To me its more outrageous that these passive-aggressive tweets were made. Suck it up. You work for ALW who yes, has his strengths and weaknesses like every one of us. Deal with it or don't audition for the show. It is never acceptable to behave in such a discourteous and disrespectful manner, whatever the circumstances. If the cast deserved criticism, that is not "outrageous" but there are proper ways to go about it. A public (ie in front of the whole company) tantrum is never excusable and "suck it up" is the kind of response that is well beyond its use-by date! It's ironic that praise is being heaped on those who have stood up against Terry Gilliam- who hasn't actually done anything to anybody in the company he was due to work with- but those who have been treated in-person with the height of unprofessionalism by ALW are advised to "deal with it". They are paid to perform, not to be punchbags. |
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Post by stagebyte on Nov 6, 2021 16:54:04 GMT
So apparently the show’s leading lady was off sm because she was feeling miserable (which is fine of course) but then dreamed about broken ankles which turned out to be a dream about a new facts or criticism you’ve received dispelling your confidence/realisation something you’re doing might be wrong. Ok. The cast trolling of ALW is getting ever more subtle 😂😉 instagram.com/stories/carriehopefletcher/2701108971413299103?utm_medium=copy_link |
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