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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 9:46:39 GMT
I don't consider The Daily Mail a reliable source, it's a trashy sensationalist tabloid. I'm sure something happened, maybe ALW was in a bad mood that day, but it's likely to have been misrepresented or exaggerated as almost always happens on such occasions. It won't have been based on one critic and one review, that's ludicrous. He's not going to treat a critic like he's some sort of god.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 5, 2021 9:48:47 GMT
Deplorable behaviour of the composer aside (but by no means excusable), the chances of the changes they make actually fixing the issues with the show seems to be almost 0. They need to make the godmother's part actually have a point and make the backstory for the queen and the stepmother actually make sense, and I just don't see them making big enough changes to do either.
But if their plan was to sell more tickets with this press coverage then I must admit it worked :') I just bought one for shortly after gala night, to see what, if anything, is different. All publicity is good publicity, perhaps...
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 9:51:03 GMT
Deplorable behaviour of the composer aside (but by no means excusable), the chances of the changes they make actually fixing the issues with the show seems to be almost 0. They need to make the godmother's part actually have a point and make the backstory for the queen and the stepmother actually make sense, and I just don't see them making big enough changes to do either. How do you know it was deplorable? You weren't there, you don't know what happened.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 5, 2021 9:51:31 GMT
Deplorable behaviour of the composer aside (but by no means excusable), the chances of the changes they make actually fixing the issues with the show seems to be almost 0. They need to make the godmother's part actually have a point and make the backstory for the queen and the stepmother actually make sense, and I just don't see them making big enough changes to do either. How do you know it was deplorable? You weren't there, you don't know what happened. And neither were you.
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Post by scarpia on Nov 5, 2021 9:51:39 GMT
I don't consider The Daily Mail a reliable source, it's a trashy sensationalist tabloid. I'm sure something happened, maybe ALW was in a bad mood that day, but it's likely to have been misrepresented or exaggerated as almost always happens on such occasions. It won't have been based on one critic and one review, that's ludicrous. He's not going to treat a critic like he's some sort of god. The Daily Mail IS a trashy sensationalist tabloid and usually isn't reliable with regard to its supposed news coverage. However, Baz Bamigboye is normally very reliable and accurate when it comes to theatre gossip. Also, re ALW not reacting based on one critic...where have you been?!
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Post by stevej678 on Nov 5, 2021 9:52:22 GMT
I don't consider The Daily Mail a reliable source, it's a trashy sensationalist tabloid. I'm sure something happened, maybe ALW was in a bad mood that day, but it's likely to have been misrepresented or exaggerated as almost always happens on such occasions. It won't have been based on one critic and one review, that's ludicrous. He's not going to treat a critic like he's some sort of god. Which report said ALW is treating the critic in question like some sort of god?
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 9:56:20 GMT
How do you know it was deplorable? You weren't there, you don't know what happened. And neither were you. True, but I generally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him but he doesn't seem like a bad guy to me.
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Post by steve10086 on Nov 5, 2021 10:01:33 GMT
True, but I generally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him but he doesn't seem like a bad guy to me. Yeah, Patti LuPone and Faye Dunaway can’t get enough of him. And Glenn Close loved him too when she took leave on Broadway!
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Post by scarpia on Nov 5, 2021 10:07:47 GMT
True, but I generally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him but he doesn't seem like a bad guy to me. Yeah, Patti LuPone and Faye Dunaway can’t get enough of him. And Glenn Close loved him too when she took leave on Broadway! Tim Rice, Judy Kaye, Rebecca Caine, Amy Powers, Jack O'Brien and Ann Crumb would no doubt sing/have sung his praises too... Can't wait for the 'I'm withdrawing the score...from myself' tantrums!
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Post by forevercolours on Nov 5, 2021 10:09:28 GMT
I remember when I said a while back that I was bored of the seemingly constant drama surrounding this show and someone replied saying I was exaggerating.
I still hold my ground on that point. There is always something. At the beginning it was ALW’s ridiculous covid crap, then them shutting down and reopening again and now this.. It’s all just a bit much for a show that is quite underwhelming.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 10:16:42 GMT
True, but I generally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him but he doesn't seem like a bad guy to me. Yeah, Patti LuPone and Faye Dunaway can’t get enough of him. And Glenn Close loved him too when she took leave on Broadway! I'm sure that he's fallen out with some people but this "shouting down the entire cast" seems out of character.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 10:18:15 GMT
Yeah, Patti LuPone and Faye Dunaway can’t get enough of him. And Glenn Close loved him too when she took leave on Broadway! Tim Rice, Judy Kaye, Rebecca Caine, Amy Powers, Jack O'Brien and Ann Crumb would no doubt sing/have sung his praises too... Can't wait for the 'I'm withdrawing the score...from myself' tantrums! Out of curiosity, why do you dislike him so much?
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 10:41:11 GMT
Because he says one thing, someone influential disagrees with him, then he changes his mind has a big flouncy fit blaming anyone but himself for whatever was wrong. His name is above all these shows so has the power to recognise the flaws and fix them rather than waiting to be called out on them, but no, always someone elses fault. In this case its Connor mainly but I can’t believe hes blind to it.
He’s still written some of the most sublime music of the last 50 years so is certainly allowed to be difficult.
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Post by Someone in a tree on Nov 5, 2021 11:40:33 GMT
Tim Rice, Judy Kaye, Rebecca Caine, Amy Powers, Jack O'Brien and Ann Crumb would no doubt sing/have sung his praises too... Can't wait for the 'I'm withdrawing the score...from myself' tantrums! Out of curiosity, why do you dislike him so much? To me he is like Starbucks. Not very good but popular and I can not understand why.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 12:04:09 GMT
Out of curiosity, why do you dislike him so much? To me he is like Starbucks. Not very good but popular and I can not understand why. Your answer to my question is that you think his popularity is undeserved and that is why you dislike him so much. Fair enough.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2021 12:07:42 GMT
I'm sure that he's fallen out with some people but this "shouting down the entire cast" seems out of character. Hardly. He's done it on many shows and as referenced earlier, threatens to take his score away in a tantrum, when he doesn't get exactly what he wants.
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Post by scarpia on Nov 5, 2021 12:10:16 GMT
Tim Rice, Judy Kaye, Rebecca Caine, Amy Powers, Jack O'Brien and Ann Crumb would no doubt sing/have sung his praises too... Can't wait for the 'I'm withdrawing the score...from myself' tantrums! Out of curiosity, why do you dislike him so much? Since it never gets old, this seems like a nice moment to wheel out an old (apocryphal) joke that did the rounds in the late 80s... ALW to Alan Jay Lerner: Why do people take an instant dislike to me?Alan Jay Lerner to ALW: Because it saves time. Cards on the table, at least four of my favourite all-time shows are by ALW. However, I find his constant propensity to hype everything up as the best thing since sliced bread and then to dismiss it as soon as it fails and blame everyone else except himself tiresome and utterly predictable. I *want* ALW to have a good show that's not just a hit but also a quality piece. But i don't think we've really had that since Sunset, and I don't think we ever will again unless he actually works with peers who aren't dictated to but fight things out with him and stand their corner. He regularly says MT is a collaborative artform but there's precious little sign of that in recent years in his output. Time and time again he makes the same mistakes and those he's surrounded himself with don't call him out on it. When the Internet did once, he was too enraged and called them "fake and malicious bloggers". Had he listened, the show in question might not have been such a catastrophe.
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Post by Jon on Nov 5, 2021 12:20:00 GMT
Hardly. He's done it on many shows and as referenced earlier, threatens to take his score away in a tantrum, when he doesn't get exactly what he wants. Threatening to sell this theatres is another tactic as well.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 12:29:01 GMT
I'm sure that he's fallen out with some people but this "shouting down the entire cast" seems out of character. Hardly. He's done it on many shows and as referenced earlier, threatens to take his score away in a tantrum, when he doesn't get exactly what he wants. I've heard some accounts like that and I'm sure he can be temperamental at times. I am sceptical that this story has been accurately reported without any exaggeration or misrepresentation. Threatening to take his score away in a tantrum is believable to me. Getting so worked up about a review which actually praised him as composer but had reservations about the show itself (he's had far worse reviews than that) is not, especially since his show has had a good critical reception overall. Even if it's true that he made a point of the NY Times review when he addressed the cast, I don't believe this was the real reason for his anger. He would likely have used that out of convenience as people do. There would have been something lurking in the background which likely had nothing to do with them.
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 12:40:05 GMT
Out of curiosity, why do you dislike him so much? Since it never gets old, this seems like a nice moment to wheel out an old (apocryphal) joke that did the rounds in the late 80s... ALW to Alan Jay Lerner: Why do people take an instant dislike to me?Alan Jay Lerner to ALW: Because it saves time. Cards on the table, at least four of my favourite all-time shows are by ALW. However, I find his constant propensity to hype everything up as the best thing since sliced bread and then to dismiss it as soon as it fails and blame everyone else except himself tiresome and utterly predictable. I *want* ALW to have a good show that's not just a hit but also a quality piece. But i don't think we've really had that since Sunset, and I don't think we ever will again unless he actually works with peers who aren't dictated to but fight things out with him and stand their corner. He regularly says MT is a collaborative artform but there's precious little sign of that in recent years in his output. Time and time again he makes the same mistakes and those he's surrounded himself with don't call him out on it. When the Internet did once, he was too enraged and called them "fake and malicious bloggers". Had he listened, the show in question might not have been such a catastrophe. Thanks for your informative reply. It seems that you are blaming ALW solely for everything and anything that goes wrong. If his output is "good", according to you, then that's because his collaborators were good and despite ALW trying to get his own way even then, he was simply unable to because they were such strong and good creative personalities. Naturally if he had got his own way - and he undoubtedly tried but failed - those shows would have been terrible too, but thank god for his collaborators! All the praise should go to his collaborators if the musical is a success and all the criticism to ALW if it isn't. That would seem to be the sum of it.
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Post by zahidf on Nov 5, 2021 12:48:13 GMT
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Post by Oliver on Nov 5, 2021 12:52:46 GMT
He really called them that did he? Do we have the exact quote? Is there a recording?
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Post by southstreet on Nov 5, 2021 12:57:20 GMT
Even if it's true that he made a point of the NY Times review when he addressed the cast, I don't believe this was the real reason for his anger. He would likely have used that out of convenience as people do. There would have been something lurking in the background which likely had nothing to do with them. I saw the show yesterday for the first time and the only thing I can see lurking in the background is his realisation that this show is a terrible mess! The cast are trying their utmost to polish that turd and genuinely were the only reason I managed to sit through it all! There are signs of a potentially decent show in there but it needs chopping some of the overlong song and some of the 5 million reprises (which is the easy part) but the book and direction and structure of the show need a complete overhaul IMO. And the design wasn't that impressive either, especially when you've already sat on the big revolve for Cats, it's a nice little gimmick but nothing that really adds anything. And don't get me started on the 'great transformation' using huge screens dragged across the stage at the end of act 1, I've seen cleverer things done in am-dram shows above a pub. LOL Also does being a 'feminist cinderella' mean that every single woman on that stage is just a mean and bitter b*tch with pretty much no redeeming features? And knowing someone who actually sat on that stage during said phone call on Friday, everything in Baz's column is accurate in terms of what happened. What the REAL reason for his outburst was is obviously only for ALW to know, as he is the only person with access to his head, but I am pretty certain it was the NYT article. But whatever it was that triggered it, the outburst was aimed at the entirely wrong group of people.
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Post by TallPaul on Nov 5, 2021 13:07:14 GMT
Was it the review in the New York Times or the New York Post that made ALW see red?
Were the cast on stage or in their dressing rooms?
Is it Mallorca or Majorca?
What's Cinderella tea and is it on sale at the merchandise stand?
So many questions...!
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Post by danb on Nov 5, 2021 13:18:15 GMT
No Oliver, He is saying that he should have truly collaborated with them, rather than saying ‘I’ve done this and I’d like you to do that to finish it off’. Imagine how amazing ‘Love Never Dies’ could have been from the start if he had matched with an appropriate collaborator, one with a soul that actually knew what romance was, or perish the thought, one that wanted to give the audience what they wanted. The score is sublime but was thrown away by attaching it to Elton & Forsyths ridiculous story and ludicrous twists. Tim Rice was his equal and clearly refused to take his sh!t any longer, hence their split.
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