7 posts
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Post by Daffodil on Sept 5, 2021 9:41:57 GMT
It sounded to me as though she was impersonating Margaret Thatcher - including the exaggerated deep curtsey to the queen.
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Post by sjbr1988 on Sept 5, 2021 13:17:55 GMT
What’s this voice thing that VHB is doing? I’ve seen it referenced but no one has really explained what it is? Think of Voldemort crossed with Margaret Thatcher and you won’t go far wrong. Completely agree about talking in it if that’s how she wants to portray the character but she has a beautiful voice and it’s a shame she masks it |
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Post by Oliver on Sept 5, 2021 13:29:02 GMT
Finally managed to catch this at the matinee yesterday and had some really great seats in the circle which were a steal at £35 each. I still can’t put my finger on it but something just didn’t work for me with this show. There’s a little bit of me which thinks it paled in comparison to what we’d seen the night before, Anything Goes and was never really going to rank high. As others have said, there’s some nice songs in the show. Not earth-shattering or likely to revolutionise musical theatre, but nice all the same. I’m a sucker for a ballad and there’s a few decent numbers in there. The first act just seemed to drag a little and ultimately the pay off at the end of act two is so overworked throughout the show, there’s little to get excited about. Yes, I know it’s a well known story but I thought this was meant to be a new take on a classic. Cast-wise there were some beautiful performances. Ivano was off as Sebastian but his understudy Michael was on. Absolutely beautiful performance and was one of the few you could really believe. Unpopular opinion coming but I wasn’t really a fan of Carrie. Her performance of I know I have a Heart was stunning but overall found her lacking some emotional depth, I just couldn’t warm to her but maybe that’s the way she was written? Supporting cast were hamming it up to the nth-degree which plays well for characters like the Queen but there was something slightly off putting with Victoria’s choice of voice where it just felt like she was disgusting a beautiful voice throughout. Glad I’ve seen it and I’ll definitely have a couple of tracks on the Spotify playlist but won’t be rushing back to see it anytime soon. I love "Anything Goes" but, notwithstanding Cole Porter's brilliantly witty and sophisticated lyrics, it's essentially a traditional toe-tapping crowd pleasing "numbers" show. Of course it's going to be more popular than a musical like Cinderella. It's not comparable in any way, shape or form. Cinderella has a score that is more nuanced and sophisticated than that kind of show. And very few shows can be said to "revolutionise musical theatre", although there are notable examples. It seems to me an odd criteria to use to evaluate a show as it's rather extreme. A show can be innovative and clever without necessarily "revolutionising the genre". It also doesn't necessarily make it worthwhile - there are musicals which have revolutionised the genre, "Jerry Springer the Opera" comes to mind, which are complete rubbish. |
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Post by danb on Sept 5, 2021 21:40:44 GMT
I’m not expecting nuanced or sophisticated when I see it on Saturday as I’ve listened to the cast album. I’m waiting for something or someone to bring it’s rather embarrassing book to life.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 6, 2021 0:00:15 GMT
I’m not expecting nuanced or sophisticated when I see it on Saturday as I’ve listened to the cast album. I’m waiting for something or someone to bring it’s rather embarrassing book to life. Well that's completely thrown my argument. I thought there was musical sophistication in the score but I was clearly mistaken, since you've heard the cast recording. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2021 3:49:38 GMT
Cinderella has a score that is more nuanced and sophisticated than that kind of show. Genuine question: Where do you feel the score has nuance and sophistication? I feel most of it is obvious and as sophisticated as a sledgehammer, not helped by banal lyrics. |
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1,568 posts
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Post by showtoones on Sept 6, 2021 3:53:06 GMT
Didn’t Ruthie do the concept recording? Would she have been better than VHB? And Has Ivano been off a lot since opening?
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Post by danb on Sept 6, 2021 5:30:40 GMT
I’m not expecting nuanced or sophisticated when I see it on Saturday as I’ve listened to the cast album. I’m waiting for something or someone to bring it’s rather embarrassing book to life. Well that's completely thrown my argument. I thought there was musical sophistication in the score but I was clearly mistaken, since you've heard the cast recording. It isn’t an argument Oliver, it’s a discussion…as in ‘discussion board’. I just don’t think you can call a plinky plonky synth driven score ‘nuanced’. It is the very definition of ‘obvious’ and in the main quite simplistic. As I said, I’m hoping they somehow come to life on stage. |
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130 posts
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Post by newyorkcityboy on Sept 6, 2021 6:37:32 GMT
Didn’t Ruthie do the concept recording? Would she have been better than VHB? And Has Ivano been off a lot since opening? He injured himself in previews so maybe it’s complications arising from that. |
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3,479 posts
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Post by ceebee on Sept 6, 2021 6:49:03 GMT
There is nuance and sophistication in this score - anybody with an ounce of knowledge about music would concede that. There are some really clever themes, interwoven traditional folk fused with power rock (Sea Witch), soaring ballads, a lovely waltz. Regardless of how it's delivered (largely synths) there's no denying the quality of the music itself.
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Post by danb on Sept 6, 2021 8:00:20 GMT
There is variety in the score. There are several of his lush orchestral sweeping motifs which catch me off guard occasionally. But there aren’t enough to reward 2 hours of ‘listening’. The fact that ‘Sea Witch’ is the thing that excites me most is mostly down to it breaking up the dearth of talky talky and embarrassing pastiches that have come before. This is from the pov of listening to it as a recording. People that have seen it tell me that its very enjoyable onstage so fingers crossed.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 6, 2021 9:16:22 GMT
Cinderella has a score that is more nuanced and sophisticated than that kind of show. Genuine question: Where do you feel the score has nuance and sophistication? I feel most of it is obvious and as sophisticated as a sledgehammer, not helped by banal lyrics. So not in a way that draws attention to itself or self-consciously announces "Hey look, this is clever, this is sophisticated, this is nuanced", like a number of other musicals I could mention but won't. It never tries to not be a musical, so to speak. That doesn't mean it lacks sophistication. It's not only about the songs themselves but also the musical construction, the development of the themes, the details, the light and shade - this is what I mean by nuance in the score. The part writing, e.g. the trio between the stepsisters and stepmother in act 2, and the orchestrations are also tremendously clever (notwithstanding the limited resources which a number of people have commented on). |
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1,046 posts
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Post by jgblunners on Sept 6, 2021 9:53:50 GMT
Having seen the show but not listened to the cast recording (concept recording? It’s not actually the full stage cast is it?) I have to say that I’m in the ‘not sophisticated’ camp for this discussion. The music is decent but I didn’t find it particularly special or exciting. Yes there are musical themes which get picked up at various points in the show but that’s not a remarkable feat. If you compare to the shows that I feel contain ALW’s most complex and clever music (Phantom, JCS, Evita) then it’s really not in the same ball park.
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Post by Oliver on Sept 6, 2021 9:54:56 GMT
I'm puzzled as to why people like "Sea Witch", it's one of two songs in the musical I dislike, the other being "I know I have a heart". It strikes me as run of the mill rock song, like so many others, and stylistically it doesn't belong in this show at all. They made the right decision to cut the song from the musical in my opinion (although thanks to a critic saying "it's missed", I won't be surprised if they reinstate it at some point).
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Post by Oliver on Sept 6, 2021 9:58:36 GMT
Having seen the show but not listened to the cast recording (concept recording? It’s not actually the full stage cast is it?) I have to say that I’m in the ‘not sophisticated’ camp for this discussion. The music is decent but I didn’t find it particularly special or exciting. Yes there are musical themes which get picked up at various points in the show but that’s not a remarkable feat. If you compare to the shows that I feel contain ALW’s most complex and clever music (Phantom, JCS, Evita) then it’s really not in the same ball park. That's a strawman. I never said I thought it was sophisticated because "musical themes get picked up at various points". You're deliberately caricaturing my argument. |
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Post by jgblunners on Sept 6, 2021 10:14:03 GMT
Having seen the show but not listened to the cast recording (concept recording? It’s not actually the full stage cast is it?) I have to say that I’m in the ‘not sophisticated’ camp for this discussion. The music is decent but I didn’t find it particularly special or exciting. Yes there are musical themes which get picked up at various points in the show but that’s not a remarkable feat. If you compare to the shows that I feel contain ALW’s most complex and clever music (Phantom, JCS, Evita) then it’s really not in the same ball park. That's a strawman. I never said I thought it was sophisticated because "musical themes get picked up at various points". You're deliberately caricaturing my argument. You mentioned ‘the development of the themes’ in your previous post - I’m saying that the themes aren’t really developed that much, just picked up at different points in the show. The ‘Bad Cinderella’ theme in particular is a recurring motif. I’m not saying that’s bad, but I personally wouldn’t refer to it as development of musical themes. |
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Post by fluxcapacitor on Sept 6, 2021 10:14:11 GMT
Genuine question: Where do you feel the score has nuance and sophistication? I feel most of it is obvious and as sophisticated as a sledgehammer, not helped by banal lyrics. So not in a way that draws attention to itself or self-consciously announces "Hey look, this is clever, this is sophisticated, this is nuanced", like a number of other musicals I could mention but won't. It never tries to not be a musical, so to speak. That doesn't mean it lacks sophistication. It's not only about the songs themselves but also the musical construction, the development of the themes, the details, the light and shade - this is what I mean by nuance in the score. The part writing, e.g. the trio between the stepsisters and stepmother in act 2, and the orchestrations are also tremendously clever (notwithstanding the limited resources which a number of people have commented on). I appreciate your definition of nuance above. I don't necessarily agree with your view, as I do find the whole score sounds rather unsophisticated on the whole, though I agree that there are definitely some very clever and commendable moments weaved throughout it which show some glimmers of ALW's past strengths to individual parts of the score. In my opinion, though, it's not enough to lift the piece into anything more than average overall. But I hugely disagree with anyone (not just you!) letting ALW off because of "limited resources". The show's been in development for a long time, and has then been in and out of rehearsals, in and out of previews, so it's had a difficult time - sure, I'll give you that - but they've had the whole duration of the pandemic when literally nothing else was happening to work on the score, he moved collaborators into his home so they could work on it full time without the distractions of having to make ends meet, and let's not even mention the access to funds he has should they have needed it. To say he's limited with resources in any way is a bit of an insult to other composers, orchestrators, and musicians who have produced brilliant work on much slimmer resource than is available to ALW. If he wanted anything more, he had the time and money to get them in place. When theatres first re-opened, one of the first shows I saw was Public Domain by Francesca Forristal and Jordan Paul Clarke. That wasn't a perfect show, but what they accomplished both technically and musically was brilliant. I'm almost certain they had "limited resources" compared to ALW and his team, but that doesn't even factor in my feelings or reaction their work because they transcended those issues and produced something which didn't need a "remember our resources are limited" disclaimer. So if it isn't an issue for a fringe show on a budget, it certainly shouldn't be a factor when judging the work of someone who - with all due respect - is in a position of privilege. |
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Post by Oliver on Sept 6, 2021 15:08:33 GMT
So not in a way that draws attention to itself or self-consciously announces "Hey look, this is clever, this is sophisticated, this is nuanced", like a number of other musicals I could mention but won't. It never tries to not be a musical, so to speak. That doesn't mean it lacks sophistication. It's not only about the songs themselves but also the musical construction, the development of the themes, the details, the light and shade - this is what I mean by nuance in the score. The part writing, e.g. the trio between the stepsisters and stepmother in act 2, and the orchestrations are also tremendously clever (notwithstanding the limited resources which a number of people have commented on). I appreciate your definition of nuance above. I don't necessarily agree with your view, as I do find the whole score sounds rather unsophisticated on the whole, though I agree that there are definitely some very clever and commendable moments weaved throughout it which show some glimmers of ALW's past strengths to individual parts of the score. In my opinion, though, it's not enough to lift the piece into anything more than average overall. But I hugely disagree with anyone (not just you!) letting ALW off because of "limited resources". The show's been in development for a long time, and has then been in and out of rehearsals, in and out of previews, so it's had a difficult time - sure, I'll give you that - but they've had the whole duration of the pandemic when literally nothing else was happening to work on the score, he moved collaborators into his home so they could work on it full time without the distractions of having to make ends meet, and let's not even mention the access to funds he has should they have needed it. To say he's limited with resources in any way is a bit of an insult to other composers, orchestrators, and musicians who have produced brilliant work on much slimmer resource than is available to ALW. If he wanted anything more, he had the time and money to get them in place. When theatres first re-opened, one of the first shows I saw was Public Domain by Francesca Forristal and Jordan Paul Clarke. That wasn't a perfect show, but what they accomplished both technically and musically was brilliant. I'm almost certain they had "limited resources" compared to ALW and his team, but that doesn't even factor in my feelings or reaction their work because they transcended those issues and produced something which didn't need a "remember our resources are limited" disclaimer. So if it isn't an issue for a fringe show on a budget, it certainly shouldn't be a factor when judging the work of someone who - with all due respect - is in a position of privilege. Thank you for your reply. By limited resources I was referring specifically to the reduced orchestra. I would imagine that the limited number of musicians is something which the show's investors insist on, since musicals are expensive to produce and a larger orchestra adds enormously to the running costs. I'm sure ALW would prefer to have a larger orchestral ensemble if he could? Form my point of view, I don't mind the smaller ensemble, it seems to work well here. The quality of the orchestrations overcomes this deficiency. |
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Post by HereForTheatre on Sept 9, 2021 7:23:45 GMT
After looking for tickets to various shows for a trip in a couple of weeks I'm so intrigued to know why I can get a seat at Frozen for less than the very back row of the circle for Cinderella...
Just out of interest what is the back row of the circle like for this?
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4,802 posts
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Post by Mark on Sept 9, 2021 7:33:48 GMT
After looking for tickets to various shows for a trip in a couple of weeks I'm so intrigued to know why I can get a seat at Frozen for less than the very back row of the circle for Cinderella... Just out of interest what is the back row of the circle like for this? Because the Gillian Lynne is much much smaller and doesn’t really have any bad seats. Back circle is a great view. |
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Post by fiyerorocher on Sept 9, 2021 22:50:01 GMT
Caught Georgina in this tonight and was very impressed with her voice - it sounds so effortless. Her acting is less good, but I think the problem is mostly nerves. She rushes a lot of the lines but I imagine that once she settles in to doing a regular show and gains some more confidence with the role, she won't be so keen to get the dialogue over and done with so quickly :')
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Post by cezbear on Sept 10, 2021 6:07:08 GMT
I also caught Georgina this week and it was an interesting comparison to Carrie. With Carrie I struggled to warm to the character and couldn't root for her. Georgina's is a more sympathetic, emotional take and I much preferred her. Her voice is gorgeous too - Carrie's is very strong but I didn't feel any emotion from her.
I agree Georgina seemed nervous, she dropped a line and her delivery wasn't quite natural in places, Carrie was clearly very comfortable in the role and she's not quite there, understandably. But I imagine that'll come with more shows under her belt - I'll be excited to see her then.
Having seen the show twice now I think both the good reviews and bad ones are pretty much all fair. I think it's wonderful - if you don't think too hard about the book! Ivano & VHB steal the whole thing for me but it's flawlessly cast, CHF aside. It seems a mistake to have made Cinderella herself so hard and unsympathetic. Georgina's take does help soften this quite a bit but still.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Sept 10, 2021 8:33:34 GMT
Ah see, I thought the opposite. There was a lot more emotion and depth in Carrie's performance for me. It was a lot more varied and you had some great moments of vulnerability amongst the tough façade. I thought her Cinderella was really effective and easy to root for. Georgina seemed far more flat to me, but the prevailing sense I got was fear, and I think that was more actor than character. I'm 100% sure she'll develop the performance more as she settles in to it, though! And her voice really is stunning.
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3,349 posts
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Post by Dr Tom on Sept 10, 2021 8:59:44 GMT
I saw this last night from the extreme end of the front row. This was a ticket originally booked for the end of lockdown show, which had been rescheduled.
The seat is a bit tight, but I had an empty seat next to me (there were a few around) and a decent sideways view. I could even see the band. A downside is I could also see a lot of things that should be shielded from the audience, including the switch, but it doesn't bother me. And I may never get to go "on the turn" for that price ever again.
I think this is much improved and tighter than the first preview. Georgina to me fits the lead role so much better than Carrie and I would definitely book to see her again. We also had Jessica Kirton as The Queen, who was absolutely fine. And Ivano is just a perfect prince. He looks the part and sings beautifully.
Will see this again when the offers start to emerge.
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Post by ceebee on Sept 10, 2021 21:46:57 GMT
Saw this tonight - perfect. Its really bedded in well now, and I was very impressed the way the sound is balanced for the front row even in the revolve. I'm sure somebody techie can explain how it's done - the sound seems to follow the actors around the stage. Clever stuff. And thank you to Carrie Hope Fletcher for her lovely wave and smile to my girls at the end. One bugbear. Somebody in the dress circle took two photos with flash at quieter/darker moments - what is it with these selfish bstds? Maybe 1300 people paying a few quid a ticket don't want the moments ruined just for somebody's vacuous instagram post - such people should be banned from theatres until they learn how to behave.
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