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Post by kathryn on Mar 9, 2019 11:38:46 GMT
Yes - you simply can’t erase Jackson from music history or the cultural landscape. He had too big an impact. You can decide you no longer enjoy hearing him, and don’t want to put out things he was associated with, though.
It’s not like this is work that no-one will ever see - they’re talking about not repeating an episode, plenty of Jackson fans will already have a copy of it.
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Post by nash16 on Mar 9, 2019 13:08:44 GMT
Will the tourists still flock to THRILLER LIVE! though? And how long will it stay open? Shouldn't the question now be whether the tourists should have the *opportunity* to still flock to 'Thriller Live'? Time for the producers to put money second in this situation methinks. Also I wonder how the cast of 'Thriller Live' feel now? I know a job is a job but... Yep, can you imagine being in that cast!? Especially if you've been similarly affected by any of the issues in the documentary? Eurgh.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 9, 2019 13:33:00 GMT
No you cannot turn the perpertrators into victims by saying they have mental health problems and therefore applying they are vulnerable, in Michael Jackson’s case he was no more than a predatory peodophile. Many perpetrators are also victims. They’re not mutually exclusive. It doesn’t mean they were not also predatory, manipulative, and awful people or excuse in any way why they did. Being a victim does not magically make you an angel - and not being an angel doesn’t mean you are not a victim. Or to put it another way. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out that Wade testified as part of Jackson’s defence, and asked was he lying then or is he lying now? He was lying then - he lied on the stand, committed perjury and prevented justice being served. The fact that he was a victim of Jackson - that he had been groomed from a young age, that he was (and probably still is) in love with him - doesn’t change that what he did was wrong and caused harm. If are ever to get to the root causes of why this awful stuff happens - so we can stop it happening - we have to learn to accept that perpetrator and victim are not mutually exclusive categories. Because Wade not being a perfect victim - not always having been absolutely truthful - is what allows people to dismiss his claims now, despite the overwhelming and obvious evidence that Jackson should not have been allowed access to all of those young boys. So can I go on red London buses, listen to Bad and yoghurt commercials?
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 9, 2019 14:31:25 GMT
It's refreshing to read some of the reactions here, grounded, realistic and looking at things from both sides. That's very different than on some of the other fora, especially in the USA, where they have lost track of all reason and reality.
It is indeed a difficult case, and I would assume this is first and foremost a private matter, especially 10 years after the man died and there is no chance on a trial anymore. 14 years ago, in 2005 there has been an extensive trial and these men indeed lied on the stand (at least that's what they claim now) and there is footage of them grinning and laughing when they walked out of court, as some kind of victory. I agree that this situation has no winners, only losers, and we have all known for a very long time that Michael had issues too, to me he was basically a child himself. Like I said, a complicated case. But I do wonder why these men are making a movie now and seek all this media attention at this point in time and how this will help their private, personal process? If anything, it puts their families and themselves in a very negative and vulnerable place, which only adds to the trauma. It's not like there will ever be any other trial or possibility to punish someone. So this whole "noble" story doesn't sit really well with me. This standpoint and documentary would have made more sense, and could actually achieve something 14 years ago. The men also show very little emotion and seem to laugh about it at strange moments. I am not denying anything did or did not happen, I am just saying there is a very big grey area in every aspect of situations like this. Everyone in this case probably made mistakes and like someone in this thread earlier said, this docu raises more questions than answers. Like "will money from the Jackson camp solve anything"? That's really something to think about. Also, other men who were involved with Michael at that same time, when they were boys, such as Macaulay Culkin (and others) who dismiss everything, calling it "ridiculous". Is this because it never happened or that they choose to defend Michael? Macaulay says it was a sincere friendship and it felt like a friendship between 2 boys of the same age. We all know what boys do at times, could it be that Macaulay just isn't traumatized by it at all? Or maybe he doesn't want any kind of that attention now because it doesn't solve anything because Michael has been dead for so long? Different people, different reactions. Questions......
Anyway, in the end I think we heard nothing really new and audiences have indeed a short attention span and most people won't even see this docu. I hope the men feel a bit beter now.
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Post by distantcousin on Mar 9, 2019 15:53:01 GMT
Yes, Dave25 - it has been a very calm and reasonable discussion here - thanks Theatreboaders! I think the whole psyche towards this is completely different between Americans and British. They have no real grasp on the post-Saville landscape we live in and are experiencing this in a very different way to the British public. I also think the US has traditionally put their stars on higher pedestals too.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Mar 9, 2019 16:20:42 GMT
One of the issues with people who may have been involved is that they are still surrounded by images, music, productions and whatever from the person they are accusing. With the continued exploitation of the dead Jackson by his estate it could easily trigger a ‘no more’ response. Given that, any allegations are going to be as much about other people needing to hear about what has been alleged rather than it being any sort of personal healing process. Imagine if the BBC was still broadcasting Saville hosted programmes (I think player has the later Theroux one but not the one done he was alive). There would likely be something similar being broadcast about him.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 9, 2019 17:41:38 GMT
I just want to mention that the lack of emotion when describing abuse is very common among abuse victims - it’s a hallmark of post-traumatic stress disorder, called ‘flattened’ or reduced affect.
It’s a coping mechanism, basically. As is denial, and even cracking jokes and laughter that seems inappropriate.
Trauma messes up people’s normal emotional reactions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 19:07:06 GMT
I just want to mention that the lack of emotion when describing abuse is very common among abuse victims - it’s a hallmark of post-traumatic stress disorder, called ‘flattened’ or reduced affect. It’s a coping mechanism, basically. As is denial, and even cracking jokes and laughter that seems inappropriate. Trauma messes up people’s normal emotional reactions. All of this- way too often we see victims of all kinds of abuse/crimes decalred 'liars' because they don't respond in the 'right' way when there's no right or wrong or even predictable response. Also these guys told their story to the documentary makers (I believe on a shared conference call and individually) before they were recorded, so this was a structured re-telling, knowing roughly the direction of questions etc all of which allows for control, distancing etc doesn't make it any less honest.
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 9, 2019 20:26:31 GMT
in 2005 there has been an extensive trial and these men indeed lied on the stand (at least that's what they claim now) Odd question: I know the US legal system has similar perjury (lying under oath) laws to the UK, but does the US have some statute of limitation? If not, then could these two be prosecuted for that, regardless of whether they are telling the truth now? I think they can. These men could be prosecuted for perjury and their parents for child neglect. But in the USA nothing surprises me anymore, as most things seem to be based on and judged by emotion. Look at all the actions and bans now, when someone says something publicly or makes a movie and the person being accused isn't even there to defend himself. It will get very easy to ruin someone's career or legacy that way. Or any competitor for that matter. Here in Europe we seem to be a bit more grounded. Because in the end, this is a he says/he says case without any legal consequences for Michael (only the men and their families could face charges). And until now, the legal system doesn't have anything to do at all with this documentary and this fuss. I mean, look at the Jussie Smollett case, when things started to become clear, there was a huge group of people denying it and calling it victim blaming. It's up to a judge to decide, after a very elaborate investigation. Also, this case is very unique in the sense that these boys and their families were blinded by fame and fortune and the world's biggest star was involved, who is now dead, for 10 years. They even lied on the stand because of it. Their conclusions shifted multiple times. So all these unique aspects make it very different from just a "we need to warn people, that's why we make a movie and look for media attention" or a "personal process to accept it better".
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Post by Mark on Mar 9, 2019 20:30:19 GMT
Watched part two tonight. No denying this in my eyes. I can totally see how these boys idolised Jackson and it wasn’t until they were men they realised what had happened to them.
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Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Mar 9, 2019 21:55:19 GMT
The Jackson estate wouldn’t go near perjury charges (even if it was possible, as statute of limitations likely wouldn’t allow for it in any case). The Jackson family would need to then prove that the men’s earlier evidence was accurate and the revised statements untrue, Given the chances of others coming forward in light of renewed publicity they will lay low and just hope it doesn’t go further.
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 10, 2019 9:39:43 GMT
True, I don't think the Jackson estate would want to take that route. But I can imagine other families from the 2005 trial being not amused, to say the least.
And the men could sue their parents, I know they said they blame them and they are working on it in private conversations, and that is actually good in my opinion. Most of the time it solves more than public judgement and prosecution. But that's their choice.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2019 10:49:28 GMT
True, I don't think the Jackson estate would want to take that route. But I can imagine other families from the 2005 trial being not amused, to say the least. And the men could sue their parents, I know they said they blame them and they are working on it in private conversations, and that is actually good in my opinion. Most of the time it solves more than public judgement and prosecution. But that's their choice. Suing would be counterproductive though - if they want the truth to come out now they can’t punish victims for telling the truth now even if they lied before. Especially if they lied before. These were not the only two who said that nothing happened, after all.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 10, 2019 11:47:09 GMT
Aftermath interview by Oprah, who seems to be in little doubt.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 15:58:19 GMT
Anyone notice a rather strange facial similarity between that of Wade's wife and one era of Jackson's appearance?
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Post by Tibidabo on Mar 10, 2019 17:09:29 GMT
I'm saddened to see so many on here blaming the parents. Well it was their fault. Who travels half way around the world and allows their 7 year old to sleep in the same bedroom as a grown man? Any grown man. But a grown man they had met only twice before? It's total madness. Of course it's the parents' fault. Anyone notice a rather strange facial similarity between that of Wade's wife and one era of Jackson's appearance? Well, I tried very hard not to. But now you've gone and said it out loud...😳
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 18:19:13 GMT
No, it was Michael's fault and nobody else's. They may have unintentionally made it easier for him but powerful people will always find a way to abuse if that is what they want to do and ease of access isn't something that would stop them. Just look at R Kelly who had his team go and fetch underage girls for him from schools and malls while their parents tried to limit access to no avail.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 18:34:56 GMT
I agree that if these allegations are true (and I do use the term if intentionally having seen the documentary), it's Michael's fault of course. But these parents are not blameless to some extent for their carelessness. I've spoken to several parents since the documentary and all of them have said they understand the idea of parents being groomed too, but they would never do what those parents did and cannot even begin to fathom not protecting their own children.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 18:58:58 GMT
No, they're not blameless, they made some incorrect decisions and that's pretty indisputable. But saying the abuse of their children was their fault doesn't sit right with me. Wade says in the doc that Michael took another child into the bathroom during the daytime. Even if the children hadn't been allowed to stay overnight with him, they would have still been abused.
And honestly, none of us know what it would be like to be in the situation of these families and while we may all want to believe we'd act perfectly and not give in to any of the seductions of his fame, power and manipulation, it is not really possible for us to know that. It's very easy for people to watch the doc and say 'I would never' about many things. I would never leave my kids alone with him, I would never travel the world to be with him, I would never lie in court about being abused etc. And yet, as far as I know, there are no reports of any parents refusing Michael access to their children, at least before the first accusations happened. So it was just a coincidence that all the families he found had terrible parents? Unlikely. More likely it's a lot easier to be seduced and manipulated by these things than we think. That's why the total honesty of these families is so important, rather than hiding the decisions they made and trying to shift the blame.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2019 19:18:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 19:22:56 GMT
What's interesting is, alot of things I've heard from people and read actually isn't Michael or the two men, it is the parents that are causing new discussion and debate.
Also, I don't know why this only just popped into my mind, but are both men not facing legal action at all for lying in court or perverting the course of justice? As both of their testimonies, particularly Wade's in court, are considered strong reasons why he got away with the alleged actions. I'm not wishing them to get any legal action, I'm just intrigued.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 19:24:07 GMT
Also, it's something we're all more aware of now, unfortunately, because in recent years (especially in the UK) we've had a lot of high profile cases. When the incidents happened, these things hadn't been reported nearly so much- and as the Saville cases proved, people were still very much in the 'turn a blind eye' mentality. Thankfully this has shifted (hopefully) but we also cannot judge historical cases by our contemporary knowledge when we say 'they should have known' etc etc.
Of course the parents bear some responsibility, but also they are victims as well. There's clear cut answers in this case no matter what evidence continues to come to light.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 19:26:58 GMT
Anyone notice a rather strange facial similarity between that of Wade's wife and one era of Jackson's appearance? Well, I tried very hard not to. But now you've gone and said it out loud...😳 The more I look, the weirder it gets...
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2019 19:45:42 GMT
It’s hardly surprising though, is it? He was completely fixated on him. No doubt that’s why the psychological break came only after he died.
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Post by basi1faw1ty on Mar 10, 2019 20:11:27 GMT
Went shopping yesterday and heard an MJ song start to play in one of the shops I entered. It felt really awkward to me, idk how everybody else felt. Then I went into the shop next door, and The Jackson 5 came on! Argh!! Separating art from artist in this instance really is gonna be a tough one.
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Post by Tibidabo on Mar 10, 2019 20:32:06 GMT
And honestly, none of us know what it would be like to be in the situation of these families and while we may all want to believe we'd act perfectly and not give in to any of the seductions of his fame, power and manipulation, it is not really possible for us to know that. No. I do know. I would NEVER allow my child to sleep in the same room as a grown man. You cannot tell me I would. I would not.
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Post by ptwest on Mar 10, 2019 20:45:08 GMT
I was a huge MJ fan and still love a lot of his music. But having just watched part one, too much of what these men are saying matches what his other accusers have said in regards to the pattern of behaviour and how the children and family were drawn into MJs world. Of course, they might be lying but I don’t see what they could gain from this is worth it.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2019 21:22:33 GMT
Aftermath interview by Oprah, who seems to be in little doubt. I just watched this. It was harder in some ways than the documentary itself. You can see how much pain James is still in, it’s written all over him. I really hope he’s getting good help, he seems so fragile, I’m actually worried about the effect of this exposure on him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 21:31:02 GMT
Aftermath interview by Oprah, who seems to be in little doubt. I just watched this. It was harder in some ways than the documentary itself. You can see how much pain James is still in, it’s written all over him. I really hope he’s getting good help, he seems so fragile, I’m actually worried about the effect of this exposure on him. I agree, I actually thought, watching the documentary, this really isn't the best place for him to be sharing this information because of how emotional but also uncomfortable he clearly is. Wade is used to press and media, for example, when leaving the court after this testimony in 2005, he was laughing and joking in front of cameras, he's used to the exposure, whereas it felt very comfortable and real with James. If these accusations are indeed true, I hope he finds peace eventually or at least a way to get through the pain.
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Post by kathryn on Mar 10, 2019 22:17:29 GMT
They’re true, Daniel. There’s no way they are faking that level of damage.
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