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Post by Dr Tom on Nov 9, 2019 21:54:27 GMT
I am very, very surprised that the Bernstein estate have agreed to such radical cutting. Amazing what the prospect of a percentage of the takings from a fresh version of a Broadway show, plus the inevitable tour and London production, will do to an estate! Presumably with a shorter one-act show, they can go to three performances per day if it's successful, and it's also timed for a Vegas run.
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6,230 posts
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Post by Jon on Nov 10, 2019 0:06:06 GMT
This is either going to be well received or torn to shreds, there’s is no middle ground.
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716 posts
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Post by indis on Nov 10, 2019 3:27:41 GMT
this is just stupid! If you need to shorten it, cut that horrible Krupke song out! Its just a toilet chance during the show anyway! never know what to do while its running, its like Wickeds wizard song „wonderful“ - not needed and boring as hell
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 19:18:55 GMT
People are so precious about this show before it has even hit previews. Sondheim is on record on disliking I Feel Pretty and it does shop the show in its tracks ... as does the Somewhere ballet. I doubt either will be missed much in terms of the overall narrative.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 19:21:57 GMT
I am very, very surprised that the Bernstein estate have agreed to such radical cutting. Amazing what the prospect of a percentage of the takings from a fresh version of a Broadway show, plus the inevitable tour and London production, will do to an estate! Presumably with a shorter one-act show, they can go to three performances per day if it's successful, and it's also timed for a Vegas run. The estate gets royalty percentages regardless of what happens on the stage, so this cynicism seems a bit misplaced. And Vegas? Really? If Shakespeare can regularly be reinterpreted, set in new eras, and have sizeable portions of plays cut or moved around, I am pretty sure WSS can survive these rather modest changes. And if they don't work base don audience reaction or critical response, no doubt they won't be approved in the future.
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2,452 posts
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Post by theatremadness on Nov 10, 2019 19:44:26 GMT
It’s the same with some reactions to the film remake. Just because this production is “radically different” to other productions, it doesn’t suddenly mean that the original and all previous productions cease to exist! It will come, it will be good or bad, it will go and there will be original replicas again down the line.
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6,230 posts
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Post by Jon on Nov 10, 2019 19:53:07 GMT
It’s the same with some reactions to the film remake. Just because this production is “radically different” to other productions, it doesn’t suddenly mean that the original and all previous productions cease to exist! It will come, it will be good or bad, it will go and there will be original replicas again down the line. I think it should applauded for reinventing the material. We've seen with Oklahoma! that you can breathe new life into a classic musical. I'd prefer this and it be a honourable failure than another museum production.
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2,452 posts
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Post by theatremadness on Nov 10, 2019 20:34:58 GMT
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 10, 2019 21:08:16 GMT
There is a significant difference between a radical cut of a play to that of a musical
The score is an integral part of a musical - the choice of keys and the progression from one number to the next can be musically and dramatically very important.
Yes, scores can be reorchestrated and things do get altered. But change is not always for the best.
With regards to WSS, I think it is wrong that people were forced to recreate the original choreography for so long - there should always have been freedom for directors and choreographers to restage the show. Recreating the original over and over is not the best way to handle it.
But the cuts, as being suggested here, do, to my mind, damage to the piece as a whole. As I said in an earlier comment, I Feel Pretty has an important dramatic role in the show. It is wrong to say it stops the show - it is the first number after the interval. It is the first music we hear after having had time reflect on what happened at the end of the first act. We know that Maria is not yet aware of the tragic incidents and she is revelling in her happiness. Allowing her that moment of happiness means that the impact of being told what happens hits home even harder.
As for the ballet, I have never been bored by it when I have seen WSS on stage. Musically it is gripping. It is nothing like the over-extended stuff we get from R&H in Carousel or Oklahoma. It works in context. Could it work better with a trim? Possibly. Does it contribute to the world of the piece? Absolutely. Dance is such a key part of the concept of WSS that a ballet sequence is not an indulgence and it gives Somewhere a natural place from which to emerge.
With regards to America, I prefer the original version - just with the female voices. It has more personality than the film version. But it is not something that really alters the feel of the piece for me.
Change can be good. Change can be necessary. I am not against change. However I am against change for the sake of change. I am against change that fundamentally undermines something I value about a piece of theatre. The score for WSS is not absolutely perfect - but it is one of the most perfect scores of any musical I know. Disrupting what Bernstein created is something that needs to be done very, very carefully. No doubt this production team believe they are doing just that. But I reserve the right to be highly sceptical of that belief.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 12, 2019 2:05:29 GMT
There is a significant difference between a radical cut of a play to that of a musical The score is an integral part of a musical - the choice of keys and the progression from one number to the next can be musically and dramatically very important. Yes, scores can be reorchestrated and things do get altered. But change is not always for the best. With regards to WSS, I think it is wrong that people were forced to recreate the original choreography for so long - there should always have been freedom for directors and choreographers to restage the show. Recreating the original over and over is not the best way to handle it. But the cuts, as being suggested here, do, to my mind, damage to the piece as a whole. As I said in an earlier comment, I Feel Pretty has an important dramatic role in the show. It is wrong to say it stops the show - it is the first number after the interval. It is the first music we hear after having had time reflect on what happened at the end of the first act. We know that Maria is not yet aware of the tragic incidents and she is revelling in her happiness. Allowing her that moment of happiness means that the impact of being told what happens hits home even harder. As for the ballet, I have never been bored by it when I have seen WSS on stage. Musically it is gripping. It is nothing like the over-extended stuff we get from R&H in Carousel or Oklahoma. It works in context. Could it work better with a trim? Possibly. Does it contribute to the world of the piece? Absolutely. Dance is such a key part of the concept of WSS that a ballet sequence is not an indulgence and it gives Somewhere a natural place from which to emerge. With regards to America, I prefer the original version - just with the female voices. It has more personality than the film version. But it is not something that really alters the feel of the piece for me. Change can be good. Change can be necessary. I am not against change. However I am against change for the sake of change. I am against change that fundamentally undermines something I value about a piece of theatre. The score for WSS is not absolutely perfect - but it is one of the most perfect scores of any musical I know. Disrupting what Bernstein created is something that needs to be done very, very carefully. No doubt this production team believe they are doing just that. But I reserve the right to be highly sceptical of that belief. There is not going to be an intermission in the show, so I Feel Pretty would indeed stop the show in its tracks... Somewhere the song is still in it, only the ballet portion is being removed.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 12, 2019 5:18:01 GMT
The creators of WSS intended there to be a pause in the action after The Rumble. They intended to give audiences time to reflect on that violence. I Feel Pretty is there to restart the action at the start of the second act and to heighten the drama by showing Maria at her happiest.
That isn't stopping the action. The contrast in mood serves a vital dramatic function.
And yes, I do know that this is only one production. But we are still allowed to consider their choices and to comment on them.
Just because a director has been lauded and applauded for their work to date does not mean they are infallible or immune from criticism. And yes, you have to reach a final judgement only after having seen the finished production. But again, there is nothing wrong with expressing scepticism.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 11:37:14 GMT
Just because a director has been lauded and applauded for their work to date does not mean they are infallible or immune from criticism. And yes, you have to reach a final judgement only after having seen the finished production. But again, there is nothing wrong with expressing scepticism. Always open to thoughtful skepticism such as yours. It is the outright hostility or dismissal that many are offering over on Broadway World that is utter nonsense.
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4,567 posts
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Post by Someone in a tree on Nov 12, 2019 12:54:03 GMT
Just because a director has been lauded and applauded for their work to date does not mean they are infallible or immune from criticism. And yes, you have to reach a final judgement only after having seen the finished production. But again, there is nothing wrong with expressing scepticism. Always open to thoughtful skepticism such as yours. It is the outright hostility or dismissal that many are offering over on Broadway World that is utter nonsense. I really struggle with broadway world as many of the posters appear to be luddites. An American Sondheim forum is very similar
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 15:47:04 GMT
Always open to thoughtful skepticism such as yours. It is the outright hostility or dismissal that many are offering over on Broadway World that is utter nonsense. I really struggle with broadway world as many of the posters appear to be luddites. An American Sondheim forum is very similar BWW also features some very young and very *ahem* enthusiastic fans whose perspectives, while often fresh and invigorating, can frequently be limited or misinformed.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 12, 2019 16:10:21 GMT
I doubt one of the the biggest theatre directors on earth atm would take on a production unless he has TOTAL control over it.
I do however think it is funny he is making these changes to create a sense of 'rushing towards death' when everything else he has ever done has limped along at almost torturously glacial pace.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 2:46:49 GMT
Hmm. I guess I haven't found much of his previous work to move that slowly, or certainly not slow for the source material. He actually streamlined Angels quite a bit, so it moved more quickly than in other productions. The Crucible, A Little Life, and Network all seemed appropriately paced, but maybe some of his other works that I have not seen run more slowly.
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Post by craig on Nov 13, 2019 11:22:18 GMT
I do however think it is funny he is making these changes to create a sense of 'rushing towards death' when everything else he has ever done has limped along at almost torturously glacial pace. IVH is very hit and miss for me, but I'm always intrigued.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 13, 2019 15:34:24 GMT
Hmm. I guess I haven't found much of his previous work to move that slowly, or certainly not slow for the source material. He actually streamlined Angels quite a bit, so it moved more quickly than in other productions. The Crucible, A Little Life, and Network all seemed appropriately paced, but maybe some of his other works that I have not seen run more slowly. All About Eve and The Damned were both extremely slow. Not to say I didn't enjoy them, but they certainly both took their time to get where they were going and neither had much of a payoff at the end. I really enjoyed The Crucible and View From a Bridge had great pacing so here's hoping he can do it again here. Missed Network unfortunately
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 13, 2019 15:35:51 GMT
I do however think it is funny he is making these changes to create a sense of 'rushing towards death' when everything else he has ever done has limped along at almost torturously glacial pace. IVH is very hit and miss for me, but I'm always intrigued. I think he is great and I've never disliked anything I've seen from him. I hope we eventually get WSS here.
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Post by craig on Nov 14, 2019 13:06:40 GMT
View From A Bridge was absolutely exceptional. I was blown away by it... I do have a thing for Miller though.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 14, 2019 14:18:37 GMT
All this talk of 'rushing towards death' makes me very confused. The Rumble is the where we see two characters killed off in a brutal gang fight. So two out of the three deaths in the show have already happened before the numbers that he has said he is cutting. Yes, Tony has not yet been shot by Chino - but as deaths in drama goes, that is not one of the most dramatic (and not because I Feel Pretty and the Nightmare Ballet sequence has come before it)
So unless he is planning on changing the ending so that Maria ends her life, the 'rush towards death' is over, to my mind, by the end of The Rumble (or Act 1 if you prefer)
As justifications go for significant cuts, I do find it particularly unconvincing.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 14, 2019 18:22:24 GMT
All this talk of 'rushing towards death' makes me very confused. The Rumble is the where we see two characters killed off in a brutal gang fight. So two out of the three deaths in the show have already happened before the numbers that he has said he is cutting. Yes, Tony has not yet been shot by Chino - but as deaths in drama goes, that is not one of the most dramatic (and not because I Feel Pretty and the Nightmare Ballet sequence has come before it) So unless he is planning on changing the ending so that Maria ends her life, the 'rush towards death' is over, to my mind, by the end of The Rumble (or Act 1 if you prefer) As justifications go for significant cuts, I do find it particularly unconvincing. Apparently it is going to be a one 90 minute act, therefore that is well over an hour of stuff he is cutting. I kind of get why he is doing it as by losing a lot of the love story/female character beats it makes the show more about racism/xenophobia and toxic masculinity which I think makes it more relevant for modern times in America. It has an extended 2 month preview period, I am sure the show will go through many incarnations before we see his final vision for the piece. I guess you either choose to be a part of it or not and it's not like you're not getting advance warning that it's going to be something totally new and a different take on the piece.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 14, 2019 18:28:38 GMT
For me, there is a question as to how much you change about a piece of theatre before it ceases to be the one you started with.
Cutting 40% of this musical sounds to me as to be risking going too far from the show created by Bernstein and his colleagues for it to remain West Side Story.
Yes, they are being relatively upfront about the changes. But there are still many theatregoers who are in for a huge shock.
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 14, 2019 21:54:06 GMT
For me, there is a question as to how much you change about a piece of theatre before it ceases to be the one you started with. Cutting 40% of this musical sounds to me as to be risking going too far from the show created by Bernstein and his colleagues for it to remain West Side Story. Yes, they are being relatively upfront about the changes. But there are still many theatregoers who are in for a huge shock. It says 'based on a conception by' at the top of all the promotional material. You're buying a ticket for Ivo Van Hove's WSS not Bernstein's/Robbins... I don't think he's cutting that much music. He has cut one song and one ballet and lets face it how many 'dance-offs' does one show need...there are plenty of them left. It's going to be mostly sung/danced through, the cuts will be mostly dialogue. I think if he comes up with something truly original and amazing, people won't care what's missing. It's kinda like going to a concert and loving it, but then on the way out bitching and moaning because they didn't play your favourite songs. If something is good it's good end of.
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2,041 posts
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Post by 49thand8th on Nov 14, 2019 22:34:37 GMT
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 15, 2019 9:46:20 GMT
For me, there is a question as to how much you change about a piece of theatre before it ceases to be the one you started with. It says 'based on a conception by' at the top of all the promotional material. You're buying a ticket for Ivo Van Hove's WSS not Bernstein's/Robbins... And therein lies the - shall we say - philosophical issue at the heart of this Clearly IVH believes he has a story to tell and is using the work of Bernstein, Robbins and Sondheim to do that. And, assuming he has the permission of all the relevant rights holders (which he clearly does otherwise the project wouldn't be going ahead), then he has every right to do so. But is it still West Side Story? I am reminded of what happened when Bernstein's On The Town was made into a film. Most of Bernstein's music was dropped and replaced by songs by another composer. To my mind, the producers of the film were using the title but not respecting the original work. It is understandable that Bernstein then boycotted the film. Compare and contrast to what is happening with the Spielberg remake of the WSS film. He is keeping the musical score largely intact (with some re-orchestration) and the screenplay is more closely related to the original book from the stage version. Yes, there are some changes - but it is very much the work as we know it but given a refresh. One of IVH's most successful productions is his A View from the Bridge. Again he played it through without an interval - but it still came it at 2 hours - which is pretty much the length of a traditional production minus the interval. Yes, he changed the aesthetic. But he did not take out significant chunks of the text. Yes, we have to wait to see exactly what he has done to WSS before final judgements can be formed. And I am fully on board with the idea of change - the restrictions placed on past productions of WSS insisting on retaining the original choreography have gone on far too long. (The Samuel Beckett estate should similarly stop restricting directors tackling Godot etc) But how much change can be imposed on a piece of musical theatre before it ceases to be the original? I was once in a production of Jesus Christ Superstar where the director, in his infinite wisdom, decided to move 'Superstar' from the end of the show and put it at the beginning (and took it away from Judas - giving it to one of the other disciples) - it was a woeful decision and if the RUG had heard about it, they would have almost certainly pulled the rights. All of the score was performed - but not in the right order. And the show was weaker as a result. I suspect this production of WSS is going to end up in the Marmite category. Loved by some. Hated by others. The original full text version will no doubt survive and continue to be enjoyed by future generations. But I have this niggle that won't go away - why take on directing a piece that you feel needs such radical reworking? If you don't believe in the source material, find something else - or commission a new script/score.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 17:07:59 GMT
Maybe he didn't feel WSS "needs" radical working, but instead saw how the piece might be presented in another form, one that might illuminate the story in new and different ways for audiences.
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Xanderl
Member
Not always very high value in terms of ticket yield or donations
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Post by Xanderl on Nov 15, 2019 17:54:13 GMT
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2,041 posts
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Post by 49thand8th on Nov 15, 2019 19:42:13 GMT
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Post by intoanewlife on Nov 16, 2019 18:32:46 GMT
Oh no, not here too...
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