904 posts
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Post by lonlad on Dec 4, 2017 23:53:46 GMT
I was there last night as well and Garfield's speech sounded heartfelt and entirely genuine and in keeping with his (excellent) NT Platform, which was ALSO misreported upon at the time. For a gifted and able actor, he certainly does bring out the trolls. Not sure why. Agree entirely about excellence of the tribute to Peter Hall: very lovely indeed. And Phoebe W-B was a great host. I love the fact that her mum's first name is Tree (!)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 23:56:45 GMT
Sincerity is entirely an experience of the individual - only Andrew knows if he believes what he was saying or not. Particularly on a theatre messageboard, you should understand that your interpretation of what an actor is conveying is as much about how you read their presentation as about what they are actually feeling. It is ridiculous to criticise an actor as insincere. The most you can do is criticise their presentation of sincerity as unconvincing. Sincerity isn’t always necessarily convincing, because there’s a difference between knowing something is how you truly feel and making an effort to convince people that it is how you truly feel. Lovely words, Kathryn. Do you happen to be a writer? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 23:58:11 GMT
Just realised that my post might seem insincere, but I truly appreciated the sentiment of Kathryn's post.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 23:59:49 GMT
I was there last night as well and Garfield's speech sounded heartfelt and entirely genuine and in keeping with his (excellent) NT Platform, which was ALSO misreported upon at the time. For a gifted and able actor, he certainly does bring out the trolls. Not sure why. Agree entirely about excellence of the tribute to Peter Hall: very lovely indeed. And Phoebe W-B was a great host. I love the fact that her mum's first name is Tree (!) Garfield has always come across as a really thoughtful and genuine young actor so I was surprised to read a description of him as "insincere". Pleased that someone else thinks otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 8:17:41 GMT
I am not happy with the Brandon Fraser Jacobs win. I would have preferred that award to go to Inua Williams for Barbershop Chronicles, supporting emerging British talent. I mean, the Evening Standards awards are a load of baubles anyway, the playwright's name is Branden Jacobs-Jenkins, and Inua Ellams wasn't nominated, nor could one really consider him "emerging" considering he's been emerged for a good number of years now. What an odd post. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 8:48:49 GMT
My better judgement says to walk away, and any other actor, any other play I'd let it lie. But obviously I can't let Andrew (and his hair) go undefended.
I thought that the words of his speech were heartfelt, reflected the experience of putting that monster on stage (including the bodily fluids part, I ahem know no specifics of course). And the expression of gratitude towards Marianne also reflects what it took to get that company doing what they did. His words about Kushner, for me, ring true of someone who knows these plays inside out, and truly admires and appreciates the sentiment behind this work of Kushner's and others. I also think Garfield as an actor/person was genuinely thrilled and moved to win that award (even if the ES awards might be better named the BS awards).
The above is my PERSONAL take on the speech. Now the opposite take is possible-you could watch it and think 'what a load of BS' an editorial you of course. BUT what you can't possibly know is whether he was being insincere, that is unless he took you aside at the after party and told you so himself. (and if he did why weren't you asking about his hair products?!)
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562 posts
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 5, 2017 9:15:56 GMT
I know nothing about Andrew Garfield as a person, but to me his speech seemed joyful, honest and heartfelt, and the best actor award more-than-deserved. However, saying... It is ridiculous to criticise an actor as insincere. The most you can do is criticise their presentation of sincerity as unconvincing. ...seems a bit of a stretch. Andrew Garfield giving a speech isn't him being 'an actor', that's him speaking as a person; the same as anyone from any other profession giving a speech. |
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Post by dani on Dec 5, 2017 9:58:37 GMT
I am not happy with the Brandon Fraser Jacobs win. I would have preferred that award to go to Inua Williams for Barbershop Chronicles, supporting emerging British talent. I mean, the Evening Standards awards are a load of baubles anyway, the playwright's name is Branden Jacobs-Jenkins, and Inua Ellams wasn't nominated, nor could one really consider him "emerging" considering he's been emerged for a good number of years now. What an odd post. Word association! Branden Jacobs-Jenkins meets Brendan Fraser. Not sure where "Inua Williams" came from, but it made me laugh. I remember seeing Cush Jumbo refer to Ellams thus on Twitter once. |
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Dec 5, 2017 10:15:35 GMT
I know nothing about Andrew Garfield as a person, but to me his speech seemed joyful, honest and heartfelt, and the best actor award more-than-deserved. However, saying... It is ridiculous to criticise an actor as insincere. The most you can do is criticise their presentation of sincerity as unconvincing. ...seems a bit of a stretch. Andrew Garfield giving a speech isn't him being 'an actor', that's him speaking as a person; the same as anyone from any other profession giving a speech. That's sort of my point, although I think my head got a bit sidetracked into thinking about audience reception/interpretation of performance so I didn't make it clearly enough. When an actor is acting, their job is to convince the audience of their sincerity, and so they are 'performing' it - and not actually necessarily feeling it. Although convincing themselves they are really feeling the emotion often helps convince an audience of it - especially on camera, in close-up. On stage an actor can really be feeling all sorts of emotions but they still have to perform them outwards or the audience won't be able to pick up on them. When an actor is speaking as themselves, accepting an award, they can generally assume the audience accepts their sincerity, so they don't 'perform' it any more than anyone else would. Unless you have a specific reason to believe that they are lying through their teeth, it is silly to judge them as if they are performing in a play. I don't see any reason to doubt Andrew Garfield's sincerity. I would also note that when you are truly sincere and telling the absolute truth it is still impossible to convince other people of that if they believe that you are not. It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it, if someone has convinced themselves it's not the case - because they don't like you, because they have decided to believe someone else - your sincerity is irrelevant. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had that experience... |
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562 posts
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Post by jadnoop on Dec 5, 2017 10:47:16 GMT
When an actor is speaking as themselves, accepting an award, they can generally assume the audience accepts their sincerity, so they don't 'perform' it any more than anyone else would. Unless you have a specific reason to believe that they are lying through their teeth, it is silly to judge them as if they are performing in a play. I suspect that this is one of those discussions where the commenters' intent (as in both of us) doesn't always come through as straight-forwardly as intended, so apologies if I'm not being clear or if I've misunderstood what you've said. Putting aside Andrew Garfield's career, he gave a speech and each of us, whether consciously or subconsciously, made a judgement on whether we feel he was being honest or not. IMO that's not 'judg[ing] them as if they are performing in a play', that's just human nature. I mean, each of us will have a reaction to others saying "Wow, I love this gift" or "No, I'd love to see those baby photos" or "No, the turkey tastes great", or whatever, based on what we know of the speaker, their words & demeanour and the situation. I don't think that's much different to someone commenting that a speech seemed 'insincere and pompous'. As I said, my feeling was that Garfield seemed honest & heartfelt. However, at the end of the day, this is someone in the public eye making a speech to an audience. He isn't having a private chat with a friend. So I don't think it's unreasonable for someone else to comment that they felt differently. After all, being pedantic, it's not possible for anyone other than him to truly know how he truly felt at that moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 10:54:12 GMT
See Gloria Grahame's Oscar acceptance speech in Film Stars Don't Die in Liverpool.
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4,156 posts
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Post by kathryn on Dec 5, 2017 11:29:58 GMT
Yes, indeed. That's what I was saying, very pedantically. Without being a mind reader it's impossible to say if people are sincere or not. We might say that someone seemed insincere, but most people giving an acceptance speech aren't actively trying to convince their audience of their sincerity, so I find it an odd criticism. Very few people are *not* delighted to receive an award, after all. Why would he be lying through his teeth, at waffly length, about how much he enjoyed the experience and appreciates his colleagues, and the work that they all did? If he doesn't really feel that way he could simply thank his family, his agents, his colleagues, and the people who gave him the award, and then leave the stage without anyone noticing anything odd. As an audience member one might well prefer a more restrained style of acceptance speech, we might find long acceptance speeches over-the-top, cringe-worthy, pompous, self-congratulatory, self-indulgent, etc. One might think they reflect badly on the ego of the person giving it. But to doubt their sincerity is just weird, in my opinion. I don't know, I think I'm just increasingly bothered by the rampant cynicism of people these days.... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 13:56:21 GMT
I mean, the Evening Standards awards are a load of baubles anyway, the playwright's name is Branden Jacobs-Jenkins, and Inua Ellams wasn't nominated, nor could one really consider him "emerging" considering he's been emerged for a good number of years now. What an odd post. Word association! Branden Jacobs-Jenkins meets Brendan Fraser. Not sure where "Inua Williams" came from, but it made me laugh. I remember seeing Cush Jumbo refer to Ellams thus on Twitter once. Hahaha. I'm always getting Branden Jacobs-Jenkins' (phew!) name wrong, but I can't believe I messed up both their names. And I'm one of those people who hates it when people get my name wrong. For the record I don't know who Brendan Fraser is. And please stop confusing me by introducing Cush Jumbo into the mix. If Ellams has emerged then surely Jacobs-Jenkins (can't he shorten his name fgs?) has well and truly emerged too? I wish we'd support British writers rather than the Americans with awards like this one. Emerging playwrights get a raw deal as it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 14:05:20 GMT
My better judgement says to walk away, and any other actor, any other play I'd let it lie. But obviously I can't let Andrew (and his hair) go undefended. I thought that the words of his speech were heartfelt, reflected the experience of putting that monster on stage (including the bodily fluids part, I ahem know no specifics of course). And the expression of gratitude towards Marianne also reflects what it took to get that company doing what they did. His words about Kushner, for me, ring true of someone who knows these plays inside out, and truly admires and appreciates the sentiment behind this work of Kushner's and others. I also think Garfield as an actor/person was genuinely thrilled and moved to win that award (even if the ES awards might be better named the BS awards). The above is my PERSONAL take on the speech. Now the opposite take is possible-you could watch it and think 'what a load of BS' an editorial you of course. BUT what you can't possibly know is whether he was being insincere, that is unless he took you aside at the after party and told you so himself. (and if he did why weren't you asking about his hair products?!) I think that if i'd acted in "Angels in America" that I wouldn't be able to find the words to describe how awesome a piece of writing it is. I saw the original production at the National years ago and then watched the current production via NT Live and was even more blown away by the quality of the writing - its sharp eloquence. In my mind it's one of the great plays of the 20th century. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 14:25:43 GMT
Jacobs-Jenkins (BJJ?) has an established career but has only just emerged in the UK this year with Octoroon and Gloria, hence being a reasonable nominee for the award. Ellams has had multiple works staged at the National Theatre going back to 2010, so wouldn't be at all passable as a newcomer or an emerging talent. I do absolutely agree with you that British playwrights in their early (and mid) careers need all the support they can get though!  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 14:46:24 GMT
The Charles Wintour Award is for Most Promising Playwright, not for Best Emerging Playwright, although there is a separate Emerging Talent award, also won this year by a double-barrelled male.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 14:49:38 GMT
Oh, you're right! Sorry, spot who didn't get very much sleep last night..... (I think my points still stand in spite of my insistence on repeatedly using the wrong word though.  ) |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 16:11:22 GMT
My better judgement says to walk away, and any other actor, any other play I'd let it lie. But obviously I can't let Andrew (and his hair) go undefended. I thought that the words of his speech were heartfelt, reflected the experience of putting that monster on stage (including the bodily fluids part, I ahem know no specifics of course). And the expression of gratitude towards Marianne also reflects what it took to get that company doing what they did. His words about Kushner, for me, ring true of someone who knows these plays inside out, and truly admires and appreciates the sentiment behind this work of Kushner's and others. I also think Garfield as an actor/person was genuinely thrilled and moved to win that award (even if the ES awards might be better named the BS awards). The above is my PERSONAL take on the speech. Now the opposite take is possible-you could watch it and think 'what a load of BS' an editorial you of course. BUT what you can't possibly know is whether he was being insincere, that is unless he took you aside at the after party and told you so himself. (and if he did why weren't you asking about his hair products?!) I think that if i'd acted in "Angels in America" that I wouldn't be able to find the words to describe how awesome a piece of writing it is. I saw the original production at the National years ago and then watched the current production via NT Live and was even more blown away by the quality of the writing - its sharp eloquence. In my mind it's one of the great plays of the 20th century. Indeed it is @cleopatraskryker and as you're new here, if you dig out the Angels thread you'll find about a year's worth of me boring this lot senseless about it. (before any of you sarcastic lot make a comment about someone quoting me and saying how great it is ) For the amusement of the board too, in the last few days in work someone called me an Angel and themselves an octopus. I hope you admire the restraint it took not to yell 'A f***in' octopus' But joking aside, I do admire Garfield's eloquence in talking about the play, it's a difficult one to put into words. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 17:08:49 GMT
My better judgement says to walk away, and any other actor, any other play I'd let it lie. But obviously I can't let Andrew (and his hair) go undefended. I thought that the words of his speech were heartfelt, reflected the experience of putting that monster on stage (including the bodily fluids part, I ahem know no specifics of course). And the expression of gratitude towards Marianne also reflects what it took to get that company doing what they did. His words about Kushner, for me, ring true of someone who knows these plays inside out, and truly admires and appreciates the sentiment behind this work of Kushner's and others. I also think Garfield as an actor/person was genuinely thrilled and moved to win that award (even if the ES awards might be better named the BS awards). The above is my PERSONAL take on the speech. Now the opposite take is possible-you could watch it and think 'what a load of BS' an editorial you of course. BUT what you can't possibly know is whether he was being insincere, that is unless he took you aside at the after party and told you so himself. (and if he did why weren't you asking about his hair products?!) I think that if i'd acted in "Angels in America" that I wouldn't be able to find the words to describe how awesome a piece of writing it is. I saw the original production at the National years ago and then watched the current production via NT Live and was even more blown away by the quality of the writing - its sharp eloquence. In my mind it's one of the great plays of the 20th century. Oh cleo, I think you're preaching to the converted with @emicardiff to be honest. Not that's she's ever really said anything on here but I have it on good authority that she quite likes 'Angels In America'. She keeps it quite quiet though.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 17:14:34 GMT
I think that if i'd acted in "Angels in America" that I wouldn't be able to find the words to describe how awesome a piece of writing it is. I saw the original production at the National years ago and then watched the current production via NT Live and was even more blown away by the quality of the writing - its sharp eloquence. In my mind it's one of the great plays of the 20th century. Oh cleo, I think you're preaching to the converted with @emicardiff to be honest. Not that's she's ever really said anything on here but I have it on good authority that she quite likes 'Angels In America'. She keeps it quite quiet though.  but actually my first thought on that post was ....  Obviously I keep my love of it very quiet. And that I've hugged a Garfield. More than once. |
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Post by Backdrifter on Dec 7, 2017 12:17:03 GMT
I really think these should be re-named the 'most famous person who will turn up on the night' awards: Exactly. That's it, summed up. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 21:22:07 GMT
And that I've hugged a Garfield. More than once. Don't you find the car-window suction pads on his paws a bit sticky, though? If I’ve told that Garfield once to get his sticky paws off my windows, I’ve told him a thousand times. Also someone keeps eating all the lasagna.... |
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