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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 8:38:09 GMT
It's several years old, but this makes interesting reading on the subject of paths to radicalisation and the fact that there's isn't any useful one we can recognise. Unfortunately the original research doesn't appear to be available online. |
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 4, 2017 8:52:22 GMT
Things will get much worse before they get any better. Unless there is a willingness to confront the issue head on, without caveats and euphemisms, you can expect much more than this. Terrorism is only defeated by being more ruthless than the terrorists, and our flabby post-Summer of Love liberal societies are simply not prepared to countenance this yet. We instinctively search for compromise and negotiation even where none is possible. Read this several times and still don't know what you mean?? My initial reaction was one of shock, but as I don't even know what you are implying I couldn't work out the implications. |
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 8:58:51 GMT
In recent years school staff have been trained in PREVENT, knowing how to recognise radicalisation on young children. It is as frequently delivered as safeguarding/child protection training but in a dedicated sector of its own. Yes schools could do more in informing the children themselves but i hardly think they are to blame for this behaviour, if a child is vulnerable to manipulation (for many reasons) then there's very little a teacher can do to convince them otherwise. It's not about recognising radicalisation on young children. All children are vulnerable to manipulation. The radical part is planting seeds in their minds that Allah is almighty and indoctrinate them in a way which says that you need to do whatever you think Allah wants, and therefore creating an alienated person. From there it's only a small step to think you are doing good while you are actually doing something bad. This is per definition dangerous. Because of this indoctrination, a person becomes extremely vulnerable to manipulation. Responsibility is not present this way. Therefore all children must be taught a much wider worldview from the start. |
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Post by hal9000 on Jun 4, 2017 9:38:23 GMT
Let's sing a happy song together! And organise a meeting with flowers next week saying: ""We will not let them harm our mood". That will teach them. Because having an alternative response like freaking out, demanding retribution, and I don't know, invading Iraq on the basis of spurious evidence really worked out well. [ Terrorists who are from the West ARE exposed to other beliefs and dogma. They tend not to become radicalised until their 20s. And their radicalisation it is a response tied with the "failure" of their sense of self which is deeply tied to masculinity and the acquisitive stylings of society, and that goes for the female suicide numbers as well. What links Islamist terrorists, atheistic terrorists, evangelical Christian terrorists, white supremacist terrorists and misogynist terrorists is that they look at the pecking order in society which fuels rage that they do not get what is owing to them as the perceived "other" moves on with life: women who support abortion access, girls who do not owe them sex and attention, gay men, African-Americans, Immigrants, and ordinary Muslims who disdain them. I agree with your point regarding increasing critical thinking in schools. We need young children to develop their own sense of self and of well-being which is disconnected to their popularity in society. But we live in a capitalistic society where increasingly spending money on one's appearance is mythologised (Lena Dunham published a recent article touting wearing red lipstick as a revolutionary feminist act as opposed to simple grooming and enjoyable style) and curating your life on Instagram is the norm (the Fyre Festival, anyone?). |
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Post by Jan on Jun 4, 2017 9:40:07 GMT
Remember not to leap to conclusions, or speculate too hard, or throw out accusations, or believe the earliest news reports. Stay safe, and if your loved ones are all accounted for, you may as well go to bed and take stock in the morning. And what do you suggest we do now when it turns out the conclusions we leapt to were correct ? |
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 9:45:35 GMT
They tend not to become radicalised until their 20s. And their radicalisation it is a response tied with the "failure" of their sense of self which is deeply tied to masculinity and the acquisitive stylings of society, and that goes for the female suicide numbers as well. Indoctrinating your children that a certain god is almighty and that you should do what you think he wants is RADICAL per definition. No sense of self is created this way. We need to adjust our views on the term radicalisation. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 9:48:49 GMT
Indoctrinating your children that a certain god is almighty and that you should do what you think he wants is RADICAL per definition. No sense of self is created this way. We need to adjust our views on the term radicalisation. No, it's normal socialisation. |
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 9:54:40 GMT
No, it's creating world alienated people.
Which is radical. Because when there's no sense of self, anything will be justified in the name of god.
These seeds are planted as kids, the actions in their 20's are merely a result. It is a very small step to believe that your god thinks you are doing something good, while in fact you are doing something bad. Because the person will do anything he believes his god wants.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:03:00 GMT
But the overwhelming majority of adults with faith totally condemn these terrorist actions.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 10:05:57 GMT
Yes, but pointing a finger to eachother saying their god is wrong and my god is right is not the solution. That's what the terrorists do too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:06:56 GMT
Remember not to leap to conclusions, or speculate too hard, or throw out accusations, or believe the earliest news reports. Stay safe, and if your loved ones are all accounted for, you may as well go to bed and take stock in the morning. And what do you suggest we do now when it turns out the conclusions we leapt to were correct ? Accept that regardless of whether conclusions were right or wrong, jumping to them does nothing to help make the world a safer place. |
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Post by anita on Jun 4, 2017 10:08:13 GMT
Religion has a lot to answer for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:16:37 GMT
I got home safe last night thanks to a friend who went completely out of his way to give me a lift. He was the only one sober and driving because he is Muslim. I don't really know what my point is - I guess just that I hope this lovely generous guy doesn't get lumped in with people who do evil things just because they nominally share a religion. People who want to do terrible things will always find an excuse - if it's not religion it will be something else.
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Post by hal9000 on Jun 4, 2017 10:17:35 GMT
It's not about religion.
Several in the United States are not religious. Elliot Rodger was not religious - but he was raised by a liberal film industry family but turned out to be a Men's Rights Activist and failed Pick Up Artist who hated happy people, women, Asians and sexually successful men.
Sound familiar?
It is about people who cannot integrate happily into society, and they are swayed by ultra-masculine, elitist dogma.
It's not about religion.
I'm not going to argue about this anymore if you have your own agenda.
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 10:25:56 GMT
And yet, these people are chanting lines with "Allah" right before the attack.
It's all about religion because they think it's their identity.
As long as these things are not separated, people stay world alienated.
As long as state and church (law and religion) are not separated, a country stays a zoo.
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Post by hulmeman on Jun 4, 2017 10:26:37 GMT
I don't have any sage words to offer on the background to this awful, dreadful incident. All I hope is that our London friends are safe. Have we heard from fellow boarders who live locally?
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Post by Dave25 on Jun 4, 2017 10:30:28 GMT
He was the only one sober and driving because he is Muslim. No person is Muslim. A person can DO Muslim, or thinks he's doing Muslim. And that goes for all religions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:33:10 GMT
I woke up thinking that, well May might have turned out to be inept and poor with people but she is still rational and won't do anything stupid. But no....
The one thing she had to do was keep people calm and together and she uses the worst possible phrase 'enough is enough', a green light to anyone with a grievance to act out their revenge fantasies. If we get some such in the coming weeks she now bears a heavy responsibility. Imagine if anyone who was opposed to you saying that, they would be accused of incitement. Stupid, stupid response, this campaign seems to have destroyed her.
Has any politician said what we all know, that we can have successes against terrorism but that we can never stop such acts until they decide to stop? Is it that difficult to tell the truth for once?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 10:34:59 GMT
Remember not to leap to conclusions, or speculate too hard, or throw out accusations, or believe the earliest news reports. Stay safe, and if your loved ones are all accounted for, you may as well go to bed and take stock in the morning. And what do you suggest we do now when it turns out the conclusions we leapt to were correct ? I'd suggest trying not to be unpleasant about it, if you can. |
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Post by jadnoop on Jun 4, 2017 10:38:18 GMT
Terrorism is only defeated by being more ruthless than the terrorists. What a statement upon which to build a positive and fair society. Yesterday's events were utterly attrocious, but while the immediate reaction might understandably be a mix of sadness and anger, it's pretty important that in moving forward we don't destroy the very values that put us morally above people who do stuff like this. |
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Post by infofreako on Jun 4, 2017 10:49:44 GMT
Why do so many who were nowhere near London last night insist on marking themselves as safe on Facebook?
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Post by Dan213 on Jun 4, 2017 11:00:27 GMT
I woke up thinking that, well May might have turned out to be inept and poor with people but she is still rational and won't do anything stupid. But no.... The one thing she had to do was keep people calm and together and she uses the worst possible phrase 'enough is enough', a green light to anyone with a grievance to act out their revenge fantasies. If we get some such in the coming weeks she now bears a heavy responsibility. Imagine if anyone who was opposed to you saying that, they would be accused of incitement. Stupid, stupid response, this campaign seems to have destroyed her. Has any politician said what we all know, that we can have successes against terrorism but that we can never stop such acts until they decide to stop? Is it that difficult to tell the truth for once? Hardly giving someone the green light for revenge is it. It's a phrase to show that Britain doesn't stand for this. Tony Blair said a near enough identical thing when he was PM |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 11:08:01 GMT
I woke up thinking that, well May might have turned out to be inept and poor with people but she is still rational and won't do anything stupid. But no.... The one thing she had to do was keep people calm and together and she uses the worst possible phrase 'enough is enough', a green light to anyone with a grievance to act out their revenge fantasies. If we get some such in the coming weeks she now bears a heavy responsibility. Imagine if anyone who was opposed to you saying that, they would be accused of incitement. Stupid, stupid response, this campaign seems to have destroyed her. Has any politician said what we all know, that we can have successes against terrorism but that we can never stop such acts until they decide to stop? Is it that difficult to tell the truth for once? Hardly giving someone the green light for revenge is it. It's a phrase to show that Britain doesn't stand for this. Tony Blair said a near enough identical thing when he was PM It's a dog whistle, the people who were waiting for it will have heard it all right. Blair is hardly the person to quote anyway, given that Iraq has been one of the greatest recruitment adverts for terrorists (.and, yes, Cameron with Libya etc.) |
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Post by Dan213 on Jun 4, 2017 11:12:49 GMT
Hardly giving someone the green light for revenge is it. It's a phrase to show that Britain doesn't stand for this. Tony Blair said a near enough identical thing when he was PM It's a dog whistle, the people who were waiting for it will have heard it all right. Blair is hardly the person to quote anyway, given that Iraq has been one of the greatest recruitment adverts for terrorists (.and, yes, Cameron with Libya etc.) I'm sorry, but it's really not. You are just using this to express your political viewpoint. If she had said something along the lines of "We must all fight back" then I would agree with you. This is a simple turn of phrase to show that Britain will not tolerate this |
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Post by CG on the loose on Jun 4, 2017 11:12:54 GMT
Why do so many who were nowhere near London last night insist on marking themselves as safe on Facebook? Perhaps because they're known to be regular visitors to London and it's an easy way of letting friends who may not be aware of their exact movements know that they are, indeed, safe? It crossed my mind last night to do so, but I figured as I was actively tweeting, etc., it was unnecessary. Still had a couple of calls this morning from people checking up on me. |
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