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Post by anita on Dec 1, 2017 15:36:35 GMT
My mum always said she was half Welsh but the only Welsh she knew was for " Shut your mouth ,you dirty pig".
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5,676 posts
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Post by lynette on Dec 1, 2017 16:55:54 GMT
Well I fail to understand why anyone in the UK should be expected to read, write and speak in any other language than English except for the obvious like a teacher of French say. Any job in any office in the U.K. or in any institution should be open to people of the correct calibre, who are fluent in English. If a company wants Welsh speakers they should say why, noting that everyone in Wales does speak English ( of sorts and often v poetically ) and then be prepared to teach or pay for the teaching of staff they think should speak Welsh. I’m sorry to say but the politically bonkers have taken over the establishment in Wales. Talk to people in the creative world there and they will tell you how. I’m unapologetic in my views and a bit too vehement for the time of the year, goodwill etc ...and some of my best friends are Welsh and speak Welsh.
This is not to say that the teaching of languages in the U.K. is poor and we should address this. Welsh could be a choice on the syllabus in any part of the U.K. if there demand and teachers. There is some good stuff written in Welsh.
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Post by harrie on Dec 1, 2017 17:17:47 GMT
I wondered whether there'd be a reply like this. I completely agree that, as @emicardiff noted, that if Welsh is integral to a job the best person should be hired, and if that person cannot already speak Welsh they should be supported to do so. On the other side of the coin, Welsh is my first language, and it has official status in Wales, so in principle I shouldn't be treated any differently if I would like to use a public service in Welsh rather than English. (I'm not entirely sure why you mention the UK several times when this is very Wales specific) It is not 'politically bonkers' to allow people to use their mother tongue in their own country. 'There is some good stuff written in Welsh' - a language is so much more than its literature! It's an enormous part of my identity, and the culture and history of Wales. I'm also unapologetic in my views here.
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5,676 posts
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Post by lynette on Dec 1, 2017 17:50:51 GMT
I do appreciate your point, harrie. Welsh is your first language. English is mine. Apart from the fact that you are probably more wonderful than I am, should you be given a job in Cardiff over me because I can’t speak Welsh when you could get a job over me in London because you speak English? If you follow.
Anyway, I have strong ties to Wales, believe it or not. 😳
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Post by harrie on Dec 1, 2017 18:11:30 GMT
I think I follow, and as I said I think the best person for the job should get it regardless of language ability (apart from obvious exemptions such as translator/ teacher in a Welsh medium school etc.) However, languages are a skill, so personally I don’t see anything wrong with an employer considering Welsh language ability if interviewing two equally strong candidates. This might be a poor analogy, but it’s like if 2 equally good candidates apply for an IT job and one has experience of using a programme used by the firm and the other hasn’t. It is a minefield and I know that the new regulations haven’t always considered all the practicalities!
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5,676 posts
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Post by lynette on Dec 1, 2017 18:15:09 GMT
We are, harrie, going to have to sort this out over a prosecco in the bar of a theatre of your choice! In London. 😘
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Post by harrie on Dec 1, 2017 18:20:22 GMT
It’s always easier to put the world to rights with some prosecco! 😘
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4,008 posts
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 1, 2017 18:56:32 GMT
I hope this question doesn't come over as tactless, my knowledge of Wales being limited to a few holidays in Pembrokeshire & a couple of opera trips to Cardiff, but if Welsh businesses insist that all employees speak Welsh then are there a large number of Welsh businesses that do business solely within Wales? Otherwise, to be linguistically fair, surely the job ads should be insisting not only that employees speak Welsh but also that they speak English, for the sake of international business relations, given the number of Welsh speakers outisde Wales is small (having checked on Wikipedia, there is a small Welsh-speaking community in Argentina!).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 19:35:59 GMT
Dawnstar not tactless at all and perfectly reasonable to ask! That kind of relates to a post a page back where I mentioned the different in private/public sector working. A large number of our big private sector employers (I'll use Admiral again as an obvious one in Cardiff) don't have SUCH demands on Welsh speaking because as you rightly say a great deal of their business is elsewhere in the world. Somewhat amusingly, the best Welsh Language provision for employees I've encourntered is in Universities, because obviously they have the teaching resources 'to hand'. But also, obviously most of the work there is again focused outside Wales. harrie and lynette I applaud your grown up discussion of it all, and that's exactly what I wish people could do across the board- even when we slightly disagree people should be able to listen to both sides as you both did. I know myself and other anglophones avoid bringing up this topic at times for fear of the rows and I'm sure Welsh speakers do too. BUT I see where both of you are coming from. For what it's worth I think you're actually trying to be equally fair to everyone! Personally I have no problem with a MOVE towards 'everyone must speak Welsh' BUT employers (and schools and everyone else) needs to see that unless you want to run out everyone who doesn't speak the language already out, then that process has to be a) gradual b) supported by money and time from the government and by association employers.
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5,123 posts
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Post by TallPaul on Dec 1, 2017 19:39:14 GMT
You could sit under my favourite garden plant It would probably be warmer than sitting inside, if your boiler is broken. I'll bring my snorkel!
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4,008 posts
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 1, 2017 20:06:48 GMT
Somewhat amusingly, the best Welsh Language provision for employees I've encourntered is in Universities, because obviously they have the teaching resources 'to hand'. But also, obviously most of the work there is again focused outside Wales. That makes me wonder: is speaking Welsh a requirement for applying to universities in Wales? For all students, I mean. Obviously if you were applying to do a degree in Welsh it'd be a reasonable requirement!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 20:13:53 GMT
Somewhat amusingly, the best Welsh Language provision for employees I've encourntered is in Universities, because obviously they have the teaching resources 'to hand'. But also, obviously most of the work there is again focused outside Wales. That makes me wonder: is speaking Welsh a requirement for applying to universities in Wales? For all students, I mean. Obviously if you were applying to do a degree in Welsh it'd be a reasonable requirement! Nope! Universities are I guess kind of like Private companies in that way BUT there is an obligation to offer a certain amount of courses through the medium of Welsh, and I believe the option to submit work through the medium of Welsh (exact rules vary course to course) But because of the nature of Universities, those teaching are also less likely to be Welsh speakers as Academia is by it's nature such an international profession. An interesting exception to the 'Have the right to submit in Welsh' rule is the Creative writing courses- it was ruled at my old University that unless someone was on a creative course taught in Welsh then they couldn't submit in Welsh simply because the translation process wouldn't retain the 'spirit' of what they had done creatively - so students were asked to express that preference through the modules they chose instead (there were Welsh options for them so there wasn't an issue of disadvantage or conflict there) The exception being Teacher training courses where undertaking some Welsh is required on the course because we use what we call 'incidental Welsh' in the classroom now ie using Welsh words and phrases when possible while teaching in English. And in the case of teaching courses the idea is many will go on to work in schools in Wales too.
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 1, 2017 20:26:54 GMT
Nope! Universities are I guess kind of like Private companies in that way BUT there is an obligation to offer a certain amount of courses through the medium of Welsh, and I believe the option to submit work through the medium of Welsh (exact rules vary course to course) But because of the nature of Universities, those teaching are also less likely to be Welsh speakers as Academia is by it's nature such an international profession. An interesting exception to the 'Have the right to submit in Welsh' rule is the Creative writing courses- it was ruled at my old University that unless someone was on a creative course taught in Welsh then they couldn't submit in Welsh simply because the translation process wouldn't retain the 'spirit' of what they had done creatively - so students were asked to express that preference through the modules they chose instead (there were Welsh options for them so there wasn't an issue of disadvantage or conflict there) The exception being Teacher training courses where undertaking some Welsh is required on the course because we use what we call 'incidental Welsh' in the classroom now ie using Welsh words and phrases when possible while teaching in English. And in the case of teaching courses the idea is many will go on to work in schools in Wales too. The combination of students being able to sumbit work in Welsh & tutors not being obliged to speak Welsh must throw up some awkwardness at times. I suppose the tutor has to hunt around for a colleague who both speaks Welsh & has sufficient grasp of the topic to do the marking for them! There seems to have been a considerable rise in Welsh over the last 20-odd years. I had a couple of holidays in Pembrokeshire just over 20 years ago and there seemed to be very little evidence of Welsh then (I am aware Pembrokeshire is one of the more "English" parts of Wales). By the last time I visited Cardiff, last year, all the signs were in both languages, though I don't recall actually hearing anyone speak Welsh. It's the same in Scotland: I've been visiting relatives there for 25 years & it's gone from no Gaelic to all the road signs etc. being in Gaelic (which my relatives aren't too impressed by: as they point out, in the part of Scotland where they live Gaelic has not been spoken much for a long time; the inhabitants used Doric.).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 20:27:20 GMT
Statistically there are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff than anywhere else, but obviously being a city they get absorbed by the other cultures. You’re definitely more likely to hear it spoken in parts of North Wales, but I find I hear it more in Cardiff now than I used to. I did some digging around and it sees that the north west is still one of the main areas for Welsh, with 56% of people in Gwynedd being able to speak, read and write Welsh and only 26% having no skills (2011 figures). For Wales as a whole the figures are 15% and 73% respectively, which is not as good as I was expecting. On the other hand, the fact that there are some areas where it is very much a living language and possibly even a dominant one is cause for optimism. (Statistics here)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 20:36:34 GMT
Nope! Universities are I guess kind of like Private companies in that way BUT there is an obligation to offer a certain amount of courses through the medium of Welsh, and I believe the option to submit work through the medium of Welsh (exact rules vary course to course) But because of the nature of Universities, those teaching are also less likely to be Welsh speakers as Academia is by it's nature such an international profession. An interesting exception to the 'Have the right to submit in Welsh' rule is the Creative writing courses- it was ruled at my old University that unless someone was on a creative course taught in Welsh then they couldn't submit in Welsh simply because the translation process wouldn't retain the 'spirit' of what they had done creatively - so students were asked to express that preference through the modules they chose instead (there were Welsh options for them so there wasn't an issue of disadvantage or conflict there) The exception being Teacher training courses where undertaking some Welsh is required on the course because we use what we call 'incidental Welsh' in the classroom now ie using Welsh words and phrases when possible while teaching in English. And in the case of teaching courses the idea is many will go on to work in schools in Wales too. The combination of students being able to sumbit work in Welsh & tutors not being obliged to speak Welsh must throw up some awkwardness at times. I suppose the tutor has to hunt around for a colleague who both speaks Welsh & has sufficient grasp of the topic to do the marking for them! 90% of students choosing to submit in Welsh are on a course taught through the medium of Welsh so it's actually a very rare issue- it's just important that the option is available. In the rare instance they do (say they wanted to take a random optional module or something) the essay or coursework is sent to professional translators who are working in the Uni anyway (translating things like official documents and marketing as everything has to be bilingual) so the tutor will still mark in their preferred language. Obviously if the tutor happens to be bilingual that cuts out the middle man! The trouble Universities will run into if the 'everyone speaks Welsh or no job' gains traction is that obviously Universities want 'World Experts' and it's unlikely say that every 'World Expert' on any given subject arlready speaks Welsh...so to bring it back to the original post, they'll have to up their game in terms of supporting learning, or there'll have to be some give and take.
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 1, 2017 20:55:03 GMT
Looking at some of the stats, it's interesting that Pembrokeshire has by far the lowest percentage of Welsh speakers out of all the western side of Wales. It is less surprising that the eastern side has lower percentages, given it's next to England & the border has moved around over time. 90% of students choosing to submit in Welsh are on a course taught through the medium of Welsh so it's actually a very rare issue- it's just important that the option is available. In the rare instance they do (say they wanted to take a random optional module or something) the essay or coursework is sent to professional translators who are working in the Uni anyway (translating things like official documents and marketing as everything has to be bilingual) so the tutor will still mark in their preferred language. Obviously if the tutor happens to be bilingual that cuts out the middle man! Ah, I should have thought of translators! ETA: I am now wandering around on WJEC's website & I see students can take their GCSEs & A Levels in Welsh. I wonder if that then makes it harder if they then go & take a degree outside Wales, having to re-learn all the subject-specific words in English.
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Post by harrie on Dec 2, 2017 9:18:21 GMT
Dawnstar Yep I did all m GCSEs and A Levels in Welsh. Terminology is an important point, I went to an English university but as I did MFL I knew most of the grammatical terms in French/Spanish as well anyway, which avoided the problem. I assume that in subjects like science that teachers give the terminology in English as well, especially to students they know are hoping to study outside Wales, if they don’t they should! @thematthew Yes that sounds about right. I did quickly try and find some stats yesterday but it was too busy in work for me to look properly! I think I’m right in saying that when you look at age ranges more and more children now have Welsh skills, so stats will hopefully up a bit for the next generation. @emicardiff I think you’re right about people sometimes hesitating to raising any legitimate concerns, on both sides. Welsh speakers can be quite defensive (I definitely include myself here) because the language does get attacked fairly regularly (by attacked I mean things like ‘what’s the point/it doesn’t make sense/it’s a dead language’ etc) and of course we take that personally. However, I think that any Welsh speaker I know would understand that as you say it needs to be a gradual move towards more people speaking Welsh and more money and training is needed.
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 2, 2017 13:25:08 GMT
harrie You must be good at languages to not only be bilingual but then study 2 other languages as well. Though I can see that it would make it easier from the subject-specific words point of view!
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 2, 2017 15:12:55 GMT
Yesterday I managed to attend full performances at both the Royal Opera House and the Coliseum in the same evening. First time I’ve done that! (After some Shakespeare in the afternoon).
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2,302 posts
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Post by Tibidabo on Dec 2, 2017 15:12:59 GMT
Bought an expensive oil filled radiator as the neighbour's borrowed fire keeps fusing the house and the fan heaters the gas board donated last time they turned us off are giving me a headache. After 2 hours I have had to turn it off as the stench is making me nauseous. The instructions say to open a window for the first 8 hours of use......er....right. Ok then. Um...😕⁉️ Thankfully we're going out in a while. (So sorry TallPaul, I won't get to watch that scintillating programme you recommended on the hizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzztory channel. Hope you enjoy it - I'll be thinking of you dozing off learning some history while I'm watching some lovely dancing.)
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Post by Dawnstar on Dec 2, 2017 23:07:54 GMT
Yesterday I managed to attend full performances at both the Royal Opera House and the Coliseum in the same evening. First time I’ve done that! (After some Shakespeare in the afternoon). What did you see that allowed that? I've managed to do an early ROH matinee followed by 2 West End shows on a couple of occasions but never done 2 performances in an evening.
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1,064 posts
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Post by bellboard27 on Dec 3, 2017 7:29:11 GMT
Yesterday I managed to attend full performances at both the Royal Opera House and the Coliseum in the same evening. First time I’ve done that! (After some Shakespeare in the afternoon). What did you see that allowed that? I've managed to do an early ROH matinee followed by 2 West End shows on a couple of occasions but never done 2 performances in an evening. I wondered if someone might question this. The second performance was Marnie at the ENO starting at 7.30. The first was Noumena in the Clore Studio - only a half hour dance performance at 6.30 - so that gave me 30 mins to get between the two. So, it was a "full performance" of Noumena, albeit short!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 8:33:13 GMT
Oh, I do love a Sunday morning when I go out to get in my car and discover that someone has parked a large black van 20cm away from the driver's door, forcing me to climb over the handbrake.
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Post by Tibidabo on Dec 3, 2017 9:38:37 GMT
^Just make sure it's not your own initials you carve into the van door @thematthew . Last night we watched a freshers' dance show at a London university. None of the performers are studying dance, but most had danced throughout their childhood and had joined the dance society when starting university in September. It was seriously impressive! We were treated to ballet, jazz, contemporary, tap and, believe it or not, pole dancing! When the poles came out and the 2 girls started to rub grease up and down them I was honestly wondering what on earth I'd let myself in for. However, it was really different to what I expected! It was more a feat of gymnastics than the filth many people associate with this. Definitely opened my eyes, that's for sure. Fantastic stuff!
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Post by kathryn on Dec 3, 2017 14:21:23 GMT
Well, had a nice walk on the sea front this morning, did some Christmas shopping, and treated myself to lunch out. Not bad, so far!
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