754 posts
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Post by Latecomer on Aug 9, 2019 8:54:48 GMT
No deal doesn’t help matters. It does not creat certainty we we still have to sort out the same problems with the EU but we have a worse bargaining position! They will insist on all the things they asked for in the negotiation and refuse to play ball unless we accept. Crucially all the countries of the EU will have to agree any deal (for the withdrawal agreement it was just a majority) so then we have Gibraltar, fishing rights etc and other national interest of any EU county coming to the fore.
In the case of “no deal” we are a small country surrounded by water that HAS to import lots of things from Europe. Europe on the other hand is a very large land mass that, if it cant get stuff from the UK, can probably source it from somewhere else in Europe/land masses attached to Europe that are not disrupted. Plus they talk about “the German car manufacturers will suffer” Yes they will, but the history of the EU suggests that they will weather the storm rather than ruin their single market....and no doubt they will provide economic relief if needed from EU funds if certain areas are badly hit.
Get real....no deal just means MORE chaos.
Plus Labour...I think (despite it being an unpopular opinion) they are trying to do the honourable thing. They are trying to do a deal where we would be a “Norway” sort of deal...as close as we possibly could be, so as to satisfy those people who feel they have been overwhelmed by Europe (in a very deep down way). I would like to remain (and am disappointed the talk was not more about being outward looking and the benefits of the EU - but was probably hard to do as politicians had been scapegoating the EU for all our problems for years) and am a Labour supporter and although I am often uncomfortable with their position I can see why it is as it is.
Oh and I think Corbyn is principled, and hope he becomes PM. Not fashionable but often on the right side of arguments and genuinely popular with the young people who see that.
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1,863 posts
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Post by NeilVHughes on Aug 9, 2019 10:24:46 GMT
Had to smile when I read Gove’s current idea in the Times.
Make the 1st Nov a Bank Holiday to minimise the immediate impact on the currency and markets.
Have begrudgingly accepted we will be leaving the EU but knowing the catastrophic impact of a No Deal and actively floating the idea of closing the markets to minimise the immediate affect only confirms No Deal is the equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Brexit
Aug 9, 2019 12:23:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 12:23:10 GMT
It becomes the ever bigger mess. There is talk of a vote of no confidence but then the Election cannot be over the time covering the Brexit period. Parliament will be back a few weeks then effectively closes for the main Party conferences. My cynical thought is what if an Election was called in Conference season that would be very costly to the parties, hosting cities and policing costs etc.
If there is an election, the wildcard is all those MPs who have defected from the main two parties, if they stand on an Independent ticket, that splits the votes further still. Parties doing an election pact may well really look at these seats although a lot were fairly safe.
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Post by londonpostie on Aug 9, 2019 19:46:59 GMT
Fascinating to see Cummings becoming the figure of hate. Almost intentionally drawing the sting from elsewhere ... Marina Hyde seething, right on cue:
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Brexit
Aug 9, 2019 20:14:31 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 20:14:31 GMT
Agree with you on May’s compromise; agree also Boris isn’t much for compromise. That wasn’t my point - rather it was that, having tried compromise and seen it fail, he is now taking a firm grip on the problem and driving towards a solution. Any manager worth their salt would do the same. I’m curious - do you honestly think Corbyn is anti no deal? To me it’s pretty clear he’s secretly hoping it will go through - you’ve only to look at the delayed decisions and flip flopping. But I know others genuinely feel differently. How is Boris driving towards a solution? No Deal isn't a solution, and Boris is never going to get a deal on his terms. As far as I can see all he is driving us towards is economic misery and isolationism, or back in time by nearly 50 years. I don't know if Corbyn is anti-No Deal, I don't really think even he knows what he stands for. But his party is anti-No Deal, and enough people who could challenge him are, so he at least knows it would be career ending for him to ignore that. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 20:19:06 GMT
Theresa May never tried to compromise, she dismissed everyone who voted remain, invented red lines claiming that's what people voted leave for, and negotiated on those terms. Then when it was clear her deal wasn't going to be voted through she at first delayed putting it up for a vote and then ignored the most crushing defeat in Parliamentary history and sent it back to be voted down again. Of course she tried to compromise, with the people who matter in the negotiations - the EU. Compromising at home is completely pointless if your deal won't be accepted by the counterparty, that's the most basic principle of negotiating. Anyone who thinks there was ever scope for a better deal from Brussels than what May got is seriously mistaken. That doesn't mean her deal was good, but in the circumstances of the whole sorry mess of the idea of leaving in the first place it was the best anyone could have hoped for. The reason we are currently in such a quagmire is because the Brexiteers can't bear to admit that. |
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Aug 9, 2019 22:25:31 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?!
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 7:32:52 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Aug 10, 2019 7:32:52 GMT
Theresa May never tried to compromise, she dismissed everyone who voted remain, invented red lines claiming that's what people voted leave for, and negotiated on those terms. Then when it was clear her deal wasn't going to be voted through she at first delayed putting it up for a vote and then ignored the most crushing defeat in Parliamentary history and sent it back to be voted down again. Of course she tried to compromise, with the people who matter in the negotiations - the EU. Compromising at home is completely pointless if your deal won't be accepted by the counterparty, that's the most basic principle of negotiating. Anyone who thinks there was ever scope for a better deal from Brussels than what May got is seriously mistaken. That doesn't mean her deal was good, but in the circumstances of the whole sorry mess of the idea of leaving in the first place it was the best anyone could have hoped for. The reason we are currently in such a quagmire is because the Brexiteers can't bear to admit that. With May's red lines that statement is correct. Otherwise of course a better negotiation would have taken place |
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 9:42:08 GMT
Post by sf on Aug 10, 2019 9:42:08 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?!
I prefer BoJo the Clown. And that's if I'm being polite.
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999 posts
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 10:20:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Aug 10, 2019 10:20:58 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?!
I prefer BoJo the Clown. And that's if I'm being polite.
I think 'clown' and 'buffoon' references aren't much better, they convey a sense of him as an amusing comic figure when he is the very opposite of that. |
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Post by d'James on Aug 10, 2019 10:28:12 GMT
I prefer BoJo the Clown. And that's if I'm being polite.
I think 'clown' and 'buffoon' references aren't much better, they convey a sense of him as an amusing comic figure when he is the very opposite of that. A lot of people suffer from coulrophobia and It Part 2 is coming out soon so that should remind people how scary clowns are. |
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 11:18:48 GMT
Post by sf on Aug 10, 2019 11:18:48 GMT
I prefer BoJo the Clown. And that's if I'm being polite.
I think 'clown' and 'buffoon' references aren't much better, they convey a sense of him as an amusing comic figure when he is the very opposite of that.
I look at it a little differently: to call him by his name, and I mean either his first or last names, lends him a dignity he doesn't deserve.
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 16:40:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 16:40:37 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?! Mrs Thatcher was often known as Maggie and Tony Blair was very much a first name person. Boris is a slightly unusual name so there isn't much confusion. |
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2,342 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Aug 10, 2019 17:52:31 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?! Mrs Thatcher was often known as Maggie and Tony Blair was very much a first name person. Boris is a slightly unusual name so there isn't much confusion. And Gideon |
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 18:13:05 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 10, 2019 18:13:05 GMT
His close family still call him 'Al' - as in Alexander.
He chose to switch to using his second given name.
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999 posts
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Brexit
Aug 10, 2019 18:19:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Aug 10, 2019 18:19:59 GMT
WHY THE F**KITY F***ING F**K DON'T WE CALL HIM JOHNSON? WHY IS HE THE ONLY POLITICIAN WE CHUMMILY CALL BY HIS FIRST NAME?! Mrs Thatcher was often known as Maggie and Tony Blair was very much a first name person. Boris is a slightly unusual name so there isn't much confusion. Yes I'm aware of that and hearing "Maggie" still makes me cringe. |
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 1:55:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 1:55:59 GMT
Mrs Thatcher was often known as Maggie and Tony Blair was very much a first name person. Boris is a slightly unusual name so there isn't much confusion. And Gideon Gideon one of the better 2nd names like Tony Blair who had Lynton in his names. Dennis Skinner apparently always called George Osborne Gideon every time he saw him to wind him up. |
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 4:59:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 4:59:14 GMT
It's interesting to see that there are plans for a new 50p coin to commemorate the UK leaving the EU. Considering how uncertain the whole process is that strikes me as extremely risky, because unless we end up noticeably better off as a result it's going to be a continually circulating "At least you tried" medal.
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Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 7:21:45 GMT
The idea that Leave voters were motivated by personal betterment has been a persistent falsehood. Voters were bombarded with analysis from the Government but it concerned entirely the cost of not even leaving in many cases, but voting to leave - the cost to a family (almost £100 a week), the £30 billion instant black hole, 100,000 City jobs, a reduced taxation base, etc. IIRC, the only argument made from the Leave campaign about money concerned collective/societal betterment i.e. more money for public services like the NHS. This is really clear in academic research of Populism stretching back further than 10 years now.The key to understanding populism is to understand the importance of community (over personal wealth if needs be) and identity, and all the facets of those two things as they pertain to different ages and backgrounds.
One claim that was too much for even the BBC:
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952 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 8:34:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Aug 11, 2019 8:34:46 GMT
Has that argument been made much, I've seen it aimed at a few leave supporting politicians and disaster capitalists but not the bulk of leave voters. At most a suggestion that many will be insulated from the worst of it.
I've seen lots of other reasons suggested regularly but not that one.
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 9:05:10 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 9:05:10 GMT
I'm not sure the mainstream media has been exactly hell bent on understanding populism. There's a well-established narrative about Leave voters.
I used to see glimpses from Question Time audiences but not sure you will see it much elsewhere on the BBC.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 9:25:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Aug 11, 2019 9:25:26 GMT
I'm not sure that's any real answer.
If it's a 'persistent falsehood' then who's reporting it. To me it doesn't seem that the media are and why would they when it's not a rationale that shows up in polling of leave voters.
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 9:31:30 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 9:31:30 GMT
tbh, I suspect you are rather a long way from having a genuine interest in the subject, so I'll get on with my Sunday.
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4,156 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 9:43:01 GMT
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Post by kathryn on Aug 11, 2019 9:43:01 GMT
Saw some interesting research the other day that suggested government communications about the cost of Brexit - while following established good practice of breaking down huge numbers into smaller personalised numbers - failed because most people simply don’t have an intuitive grasp that ‘£350m a week’ is 6 times less than ‘£4000 per household per year’. The 350m per week figure seems intuitively larger, and most people simply can’t do the arithmetic necessary to realise that it is orders of magnitude smaller. (And of course was wrong to start with!)
Also: the connection between cost and spending isn’t intuitive - the fact that there won’t be extra money to spend on the NHS because we’ll have lost money from other sources passes people by.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 9:59:09 GMT
Post by sf on Aug 11, 2019 9:59:09 GMT
It's interesting to see that there are plans for a new 50p coin to commemorate the UK leaving the EU. Considering how uncertain the whole process is that strikes me as extremely risky, because unless we end up noticeably better off as a result it's going to be a continually circulating "At least you tried" medal.
And if Brexit ends up not happening at all, which is still entirely possible, the planning/design process will have been an enormous waste of money - though a relatively small waste of money compared to the billions the government have already poured into a hole to further the cause of making us all poorer and restricting our rights.
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