952 posts
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Post by vdcni on Aug 11, 2019 10:04:10 GMT
tbh, I suspect you are rather a long way from having a genuine interest in the subject, so I'll get on with my Sunday. If you don't have a response to my question the reasonable thing to do would be to say that rather than cast aspersions on me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 10:44:51 GMT
most people simply don’t have an intuitive grasp that ‘£350m a week’ is 6 times less than ‘£4000 per household per year’. The way I get a perspective on what money means at the government level is to keep in mind that our government spends £2.2 billion a day or £1 million every 38 seconds.
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 11:58:33 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 11:58:33 GMT
tbh, I suspect you are rather a long way from having a genuine interest in the subject, so I'll get on with my Sunday. If you don't have a response to my question the reasonable thing to do would be to say that rather than cast aspersions on me. I gave a response. You decided it wasn't a "real answer". And now you want to choose what is 'reasonable', as well. How delightfully mannered.
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 12:06:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 12:06:46 GMT
I have immediate contact with family who would be described as leave voting working class. It is correct that economic arguments mean little. It took me two hours of argument/conversation to explain the economic issues recently to them. There is a lack of understanding that they had about, what are, complex matters and which they have never had to think about in detail (trade was a complete blank area, for example). Changing minds through explaining economics to destroy populist messaging is possible but may not be worth it in the short run, the need not to know is too ingrained. That will take years and we don’t have the time.
A couple of pointers as to what does work.
1) Destroy the imagined reality of what they think are the benefits to them.
2) Replace that with what does benefit them from a truthful perspective.
A good way was through the NHS, the need for skilled and unskilled immigration to hold it up, the way that any imagined bonus from money not spent to the EU is going to be consumed elsewhere (e.g, businesses to prop them up, refer to the financial crisis as evidence of this etc.) On spending splurges by populists, referring to the destructive long term effect from their own past experience etc.
The vast overarching issue is actually one that we, as theatregoers, are more attuned to than some.
Narratives.
Politics is not a matter of truth it is a matter of compelling stories. Tell a better story, make it land viscerally. Give it a takeaway message that will linger. Populists know this, in fact it’s pretty much all they have, expose the lie, destroy the lie, replace it with something that gives hope and back up your argument with reality (past events, personal memories etc,)
I see that Peaky Blinders’ new series shows the rise of fascism in the UK with the figure of Oswald Mosley, that’s a really useful comparison to make, Populists give those with low information easy answers to complex problems. Destroy them by putting in its place a more compelling narrative; not an easy answer because that’s a lie but a readily understandable distillation.
Writers have long understood the need to use distancing to get across a message that, if told directly, would stumble through it being too close to immediate experience, Miller didn’t write a play about McCarthyism, he wrote it about Salem witch trials. The connection and conversation came afterwards. In my case, they have a visceral hatred of Trump (hardly alone there). That connection and conversation about dangerous populism is an easy one to have maybe.
A good start, ask about nationalism and what they agree with. Then ask about socialism. With those two words you have a very interesting conversation and historical perspective.
We used to have a society where things were explained and people’s lives experientially improved, the post second world war period is the nostalgia that is often referred to. This was based, not on fear, but on hope and on progress. Whether that be the paternalism of politicians or the connections of wider society, it has been replaced with benign neglect. It is that neglect, intellectually as much as economically, that needs to be redressed. It’s what was needed to counteract the pre war flirtation with fascism and it’s what we need now,
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Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 12:26:24 GMT
I bet they invite you around all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 12:27:47 GMT
Lovely piece by Cardinal Pirelli above.
The 50's had the you've never had it so good slogan but this was after two World Wars only just over 20 years apart, the depression, national strikes, food rationing so a lot of people had suffered over 40 years hardship.
Nationalism always has a worrying overtone in England but North of the border we have the SNP who is a broadly socialist leaning party who wish to take their country out of the UK but then rejoin the EU.
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Post by londonpostie on Aug 11, 2019 12:31:30 GMT
It does amuse me that Scottish nationalism is cool and decent, while anything English - and it is almost entirely nativism, not even nationalism - is snarly and bigoted.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 12:43:03 GMT
I bet they invite you around all the time. Family, they don’t have a choice. Seriously, it’s worth having these conversations, both ways, otherwise we don’t have first hand knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 13:17:00 GMT
Lovely piece by Cardinal Pirelli above. The 50's had the you've never had it so good slogan but this was after two World Wars only just over 20 years apart, the depression, national strikes, food rationing so a lot of people had suffered over 40 years hardship. Nationalism always has a worrying overtone in England but North of the border we have the SNP who is a broadly socialist leaning party who wish to take their country out of the UK but then rejoin the EU. People who hark back at the post war period always miss out the most, maybe by far the most, important aspect. What came before. We are at at time when people remember the after but not the before and it’s, quite frankly, dangerous. The thirties, recent general strike, national government, post the Wall Street Crash, a Germany stewing over its failure in the Great War, nationalisms arising across Europe, from Franco to Hitler. The battle between they and international socialism. (Little known, yet strangely apposite fact. Italian fascism, the form which was first to become widespread, was based on the rule of d’Annunzio in Fiume. D’Annunzio had, before the first world war been (drum roll) a well known playwright and poet (ba-dum tisch). It was he who saw the importance of performance of performance and ritual which became so powerful a tool in fascists swaying the population to their side.) The post second world war society wasn’t a reaction to war it was a reaction to fascism (and, to a lesser extent, communism). This is what led the governments after it to build a country that was more inclusive, that led to the dismantling of Empire, that wanted to educate all its young to a higher level. After the first Wilson government that juddered to a halt. It is that, not our subsequent EU membership that should be the real target. The EU has, instead, become the excuse to cover all of that up. We stopped fighting extremism through deeds and now we pay the price and see it raising its head again. The thirties again? Maybe we should have something akin to the post war UK before we get to fight a war, not to wait for its aftermath (or after whatever action people use as a war substitute).
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 17:30:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 17:30:45 GMT
Lovely piece by Cardinal Pirelli above. The 50's had the you've never had it so good slogan but this was after two World Wars only just over 20 years apart, the depression, national strikes, food rationing so a lot of people had suffered over 40 years hardship. Nationalism always has a worrying overtone in England but North of the border we have the SNP who is a broadly socialist leaning party who wish to take their country out of the UK but then rejoin the EU. The thirties again? Maybe we should have something akin to the post war UK before we get to fight a war, not to wait for its aftermath (or after whatever action people use as a war substitute). The issue with that would be the difference in attitude, then and now. In the 30's there was a sense of together-ness and community. People pulled together to do what they could. Now society is divided and ruled by individualism, there is no wider sense of community, but just small, isolated pockets of it. It's I before We.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 18:01:01 GMT
Post by lynette on Aug 11, 2019 18:01:01 GMT
I don’t agree either that the 50 s was 'never had it so good'- that was 60s or that there was a sense of community in the 30s. Depends on which community you have in mind .
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 18:28:12 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Aug 11, 2019 18:28:12 GMT
I bet they invite you around all the time. Family, they don’t have a choice. Seriously, it’s worth having these conversations, both ways, otherwise we don’t have first hand knowledge. So what happened?
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 18:31:50 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Aug 11, 2019 18:31:50 GMT
Wasn't the empire dismantled because America won?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 20:30:54 GMT
Family, they don’t have a choice. Seriously, it’s worth having these conversations, both ways, otherwise we don’t have first hand knowledge. So what happened? They are more informed. What they do with that information is up to them.
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Brexit
Aug 11, 2019 23:14:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 23:14:30 GMT
Apparently the key dates to note are between 3rd and 16th September. 3rd is when Parliament goes back after the recess and any No Confidence vote after 16th would mean a possible election wouldn't take place until after Brexit Deadline Day.
The fun thought is now 31st October is a Thursday, imagine there was an election that day
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Brexit
Aug 14, 2019 23:16:03 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 14, 2019 23:16:03 GMT
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 0:08:27 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 0:08:27 GMT
It seems that there’s about 30% don’t engage with politics to any real degree. It’d be interesting to see if they correlate with those who don’t vote or not. Logic suggests yes but you never know.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 16:12:09 GMT
Post by lynette on Aug 15, 2019 16:12:09 GMT
The ‘don’t knows’ are a considerable bunch. I was a puzzled by the nuclear power result. Why is wanting nuclear power right wing? Obviously nuking the hell out of North Korea is an opinion very slightly to the right but this is about light bulbs and after the recent debacle I think we need to seriously consider our energy providers.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 18:09:46 GMT
Post by missthelma on Aug 15, 2019 18:09:46 GMT
I can only think the nuclear power thing is due to the environmental impact as obviously you have to be left wing to care about trees and silly stuff like that! I tried to read that article this morning but it was pre-tea so I came away befuddled. I'll have another go.
Was it just me that found the use of the word 'collaborators' by Johnson yesterday worrying and quite offensive? It evoked memories of the Second World War for me and those that worked with the Nazis. Obviously deliberate on his part I would say
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 18:28:25 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Aug 15, 2019 18:28:25 GMT
The language is so carefully calibrated. They are still avoiding using the evocative - or provocative - word 'appeasement', but you sense Sir Winston Johnson is heading in that direction.
Theresa May obv. cast as the unfortunate Neville Chamberlain, waving a Withdrawal Agreement from the steps of sleek De Havilland.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 19:50:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 19:50:37 GMT
If May is Chamberlain then is Boris our Churchill?
Most elections are decided by the 20 to 30% swing voters. There is that hard core of about 25& which will always vote for their respective parties.
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Post by londonpostie on Aug 15, 2019 21:02:17 GMT
In his head, and depending on what he's been snorting - very likely.
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1,972 posts
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Post by sf on Aug 15, 2019 21:11:37 GMT
Was it just me that found the use of the word 'collaborators' by Johnson yesterday worrying and quite offensive? It evoked memories of the Second World War for me and those that worked with the Nazis. Obviously deliberate on his part I would say Absolutely deliberate, and straight out of the Steve Bannon playbook.
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Brexit
Aug 15, 2019 22:21:38 GMT
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 22:21:38 GMT
Was it just me that found the use of the word 'collaborators' by Johnson yesterday worrying and quite offensive? It evoked memories of the Second World War for me and those that worked with the Nazis. Obviously deliberate on his part I would say It did make me roll my eyes, but then when you actually stop to think about it... There appears to be some stuff going on that you could call ‘fifth column’. How far do you have to stretch it before that becomes ‘collaboration’? Probably not very much...?
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952 posts
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Post by vdcni on Aug 16, 2019 4:53:18 GMT
Sorry when did we go to war?
MP's trying to prevent a no deal Brexit and a massive economic shock to the country can in no way be described as collaborators. Johnson may think he's cleverly manipulating the EU but the EU appear to have his number thankfully and aren't shifting in the least anyway.
I notice he didn't say the same about the extreme leave MP's earlier this year who were trying to encourage right wing governments in Europe to reject a Brexit extension.
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