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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 20:57:36 GMT
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Post by NeilVHughes on Apr 2, 2019 20:57:36 GMT
We are racing towards having to hold the Euro Parliament election, a natural referendum, a General Election would likely end in no clear majority and the catharsis would continue as neither of the major Parties would define their Brexit position knowing full well their voters are split 48/52 therefore potentially alienating a significant portion of their support.
This gives an opportunity to gauge the true feelings of the nation which is why the major Parties especially the Conservatives are fighting for a resolution before the point of no return.
My concern is that is there may not be enough time to introduce a coherent movement to fight the entrenched two major parties who are too divided to be a vote for either leavers / remainers and the Lib Dems the natural home of the remainers is still mortally wounded from their ill conceived coalition pact.
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Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 21:49:23 GMT
Why is an election bad? Seems a strange comment to me Because Brexit is the problem. An election isn't about Brexit but far too many other competing and contradictory issues.
The only election that would help us is a coupon election where MPs do not stand for parties but for whatever form of Brexit they support. That would bring the matter to a conclusion and, having achieved its one objective, it would then need to dissolve itself so that a party election could take place for a new parliament. You may as well just have a referendum.
Doesn’t mean votes of no confidence is wrong per se, that is what political parties do. Think Tony Blair called three votes of no confidence in John Major’s Conservative government before it called a bit of no confidence in itself, even then that was all about Brexit lite. |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 21:52:24 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 2, 2019 21:52:24 GMT
By now the choice should have been: no deal or remain.
May has failed. Even if this plan, starting a reconnaissance phase to look for a deal, would get through, it will be something that both sides are not happy with.
It's too late for that, she is stealing the last time there is. Preventing the people from having any choice. This is dangerous.
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 22:03:42 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 22:03:42 GMT
Also with all the extra layers of Government - Elected Mayors, Police Commissioners, Welsh Assembly, NI Assembly, Scottish Parliament - things brought in jointly by both major parties across a number of Governments - the role of an MP and some of their powers have decreased so people become disenfranchised with them.
Arron Banks treated them with the right sort of respect when he left the Select Committee to go to a lunch date.
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Brexit
Apr 3, 2019 16:46:21 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 16:46:21 GMT
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Apr 3, 2019 17:57:44 GMT
Post by sf on Apr 3, 2019 17:57:44 GMT
And given how many people were in the area on that date wearing some kind of pro-EU regalia - I was among them, though I didn't go to the theatre before I came home - this seems (I'll be kind) deliberately provocative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2019 19:57:07 GMT
May and Corbyn are having talks. This is the entire future of our country at stake, so isn't it just a bit bloody late to set aside party rivalry and work together? Why weren't they doing this two years ago?
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573 posts
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Brexit
Apr 4, 2019 9:22:43 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 4, 2019 9:22:43 GMT
So May finally lost her number 1 blackmail tool to get her way?
It seems some hardcore Brexiteers are really clueless because they say they feel angry, while they actually should be angry that they were lied to in the campaign for the referendum.
I wonder if the EU grants extension.
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Brexit
Apr 4, 2019 15:12:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2019 15:12:24 GMT
House of Commons has been suspended because the roof is leaking.
The farce continues.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 4, 2019 16:50:55 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 4, 2019 16:50:55 GMT
So May finally lost her number 1 blackmail tool to get her way? It seems some hardcore Brexiteers are really clueless because they say they feel angry, while they actually should be angry that they were lied to in the campaign for the referendum. I wonder if the EU grants extension. She was never going to use the blackmail tool, even talking with Corbyn was preferable. It was just to keep Gino Francois onside |
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Brexit
Apr 4, 2019 20:45:57 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 4, 2019 20:45:57 GMT
She used it to try to push her inadequate deal through. Some mp's even fell for it.
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Brexit
Apr 4, 2019 21:05:37 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 4, 2019 21:05:37 GMT
Yeah but she didn't mean the threat. She has seen the reports of what will happen after all
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Apr 4, 2019 23:07:19 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 4, 2019 23:07:19 GMT
House of Commons has been suspended because the roof is leaking. The farce continues. “Fix The Roof, whilst the Sun Shines” George Osbourne. |
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Brexit
Apr 5, 2019 13:03:01 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 5, 2019 13:03:01 GMT
UK is afraid to jump, EU is afraid to push.
But why would the EU grant yet another extension if may just wants a few more attempts to push her deal through? The choice is already there. This will not change in months.
No-deal scenario is already off the table. The choice is to cancel Brexit or to accept May's inadequate deal (which she should present now). Extension damages the country, the economy, and the people much more. Companies won't invest and are waiting, everything has been on hold for far too long already. There's chaos in streets. If the EU is smart they do not grant extension and protect the national security.
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 4:47:25 GMT
Post by n1david on Apr 6, 2019 4:47:25 GMT
If the EU is smart they do not grant extension and protect the national security. In which case, as things stand now, we get no deal. Unless May can get her deal through Parliament in the next week. Just because Parliament has taken no deal off the table, that’s meaningless unless they actually vote for something else. After the debacle of the cross-party talks, she may struggle to get many Labour MPs to vote for her deal this time around. And after being seen to pander to a “Marxist”, I suspect she may get fewer ERG members willing to hold their noses in another Meaningful Vote. So with the mood music from the EU27 sounding less positive, I’d say that no deal is much more likely than this time last week, despite the Cooper amendment. But in the crazy world of Brexit brinkmanship, anything could happen. And probably will. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 9:56:46 GMT
My guess is that it is only the thought of a £39bn hole in the EU budget that keeps the EU talking. They're probably thinking by now that it'll be a small price to pay to get rid of these idiots.
We're just a laughing stock, it's going to be a long way back from here.
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 11:08:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 11:08:55 GMT
No one is prepared to compromise their view on what Brexit should be, so nothing will get sorted. If the only think the majority agree on is that ‘no-deal’ is not acceptable... in a perverse way that’s exactly what we should do as at least we’ll begin working together to minimise the impact.
MPs had the moment to take control and they totally blew it. The government’s deal is dead. Nothing has a majority and all parliament seems to worry about is ensuring ‘no deal’ doesn’t happen without any sort of back up plan.
I strongly disagree that this means it should then be put to the public vote too, because if the public reject the PM’s deal and confirm we want Brexit, we end up in exactly the same place. Even if we were asked what sort of Brexit, any more than two options means potentially nothing could gain a representative majority. Yet the MPs have failed to even narrow down workable alternatives that could be put to us.
So all in all, we should just leave with no deal and get on with sorting out the mess that creates. At least then we will all be united behind fixing the issues as quickly and as effectively as possible... and we need some sort of unity - a show of strength.
Though I do feel we should have a snap general election if we do leave with no deal - no deal would be a failure of this government and we can’t just allow them to sort the fall out.
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 11:31:44 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 11:31:44 GMT
The only benefit of a no deal leave for remainers is that it would destroy the idea of leaving for good. Is it worth the short term chaos for that? It would be a difficult one to sell to anyone who loses their business/job/health as its being a necessary evil for the period that it happens, however short. How much self harm is needed?
If we do not leave for a period a substantial minority of leavers would also blame anyone and everything on not leaving. Only tangible suffering would change some minds.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 11:37:10 GMT
Snip So all in all, we should just leave with no deal and get on with sorting out the mess that creates. At least then we will all be united behind fixing the issues as quickly and as effectively as possible... and we need some sort of unity - a show of strength. United? That’s the opposite of what would happen. With such polarisation the first period (for whichever unsuccessful side) will be even greater opposition, to harm the case of the ‘winners’, to seek revenge, to destroy any chance of it working |
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 12:27:11 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 6, 2019 12:27:11 GMT
This drawing shows the current possibilities. With every new development they make a new one, and I always see the option "cancel brexit" everywhere. How could this occur and who would decide that? www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46393399 |
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 13:21:57 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 6, 2019 13:21:57 GMT
Snip So all in all, we should just leave with no deal and get on with sorting out the mess that creates. At least then we will all be united behind fixing the issues as quickly and as effectively as possible... and we need some sort of unity - a show of strength. United? That’s the opposite of what would happen. With such polarisation the first period (for whichever unsuccessful side) will be even greater opposition, to harm the case of the ‘winners’, to seek revenge, to destroy any chance of it working Were you pushing for a peoples vote two pages ago? |
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 13:56:00 GMT
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Post by Latecomer on Apr 6, 2019 13:56:00 GMT
I am always amused (despairing?) about the idea of “no deal”.....we would then have to negotiate a “deal” very quickly and with no bargaining chips as we are an island than needs lots of things shipping in....while the other side are a huge bunch of countries that can continue to get things from each other no problem....and if a country is going to suffer a lot from no trade with us (or more accurately chaotic trade with us) then the EU will no doubt club together to help the affected country.....that’s how the EU works if you have an unexpected disaster...
So “no deal” actually means “desperate deal” with no bargaining chips and they can make things as hard as they like for us. Plus we will have left so we will have voluntarily given up our chance to ditch all this rubbish and keep our deal with opt outs that we already have!!!!
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 14:49:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 14:49:20 GMT
United? That’s the opposite of what would happen. With such polarisation the first period (for whichever unsuccessful side) will be even greater opposition, to harm the case of the ‘winners’, to seek revenge, to destroy any chance of it working Were you pushing for a peoples vote two pages ago? A people’s vote is not the antithesis of a no deal Brexit, revoking is. In the case of remaining (or leaving) a people’s vote would soften either response. Crashing out or revoking would be more provocative but a vote (which I think that remain would win) would create less friction. |
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Post by sf on Apr 6, 2019 15:18:44 GMT
So all in all, we should just leave with no deal and get on with sorting out the mess that creates. OK then. If it's THAT simple, what's your solution for the border in Ireland in a no-deal scenario? If we impose conditions that, under international law, make a hard border necessary, do we simply rip up the Good Friday Agreement? That is, do we rip up an international peace treaty that brought an end to a decades-long state of civil war in our own country? If we break away from alignment with the single market, what's your solution for the border with Gibraltar? These are not academic questions. These are things that affect real people, and the effect would be devastating. At least then we will all be united behind fixing the issues as quickly and as effectively as possible... and we need some sort of unity - a show of strength. "Unity"? If you want Scotland to vote to leave the Union and Northern Ireland to follow, a no-deal scenario is probably the quickest way to achieve it.
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Brexit
Apr 6, 2019 15:46:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 15:46:14 GMT
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