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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:06:22 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 17:06:22 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group?
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4,156 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:17:08 GMT
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Post by kathryn on Apr 2, 2019 17:17:08 GMT
What our side never understood is that this is less a negotiation and more simply an exercise in choosing from a menu. The EU is a treaty-based organisation and they aren't going to bend their rules simply because some upstart country with delusions of still ruling an empire demands it. Well, the UK economy is the same size as the 19 smallest EU member states. Put another way, you could replace 19 countries instead of the UK and the single market would be the same size.
It's Germany's largest export market .. there are a thousand numbers. It was a catastrophic error by Mrs Merkel to send David Cameron away effectively empty handed.
But the whole point of EU membership is to pool the bargaining power of its members so that smaller economies can’t be pushed around by larger ones. That’s why we wanted to be in it, as a smaller economy compared to the US. They literally can’t allow the size of our economy to override the legitimate interests of their member states. |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:25:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 17:25:50 GMT
If we did crash out then Ireland could really suffer as a lot of their EU goods come via the UK, so we could use that as a bargaining chip if Ireland starts having shortages.
Also a lot of EU countries border none EU countries so how do they manage those borders?
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:28:59 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 17:28:59 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK?
As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support.
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1,972 posts
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Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:29:14 GMT
Well, the UK economy is the same size as the 19 smallest EU member states. So what? Together, as a bloc, the EU is stronger than we are on our own. Their negotiators always knew it. Ours did not, and should have. |
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1,972 posts
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Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:30:16 GMT
If we did crash out then Ireland could really suffer as a lot of their EU goods come via the UK, so we could use that as a bargaining chip if Ireland starts having shortages. Yes, because given the last several hundred years of history, threatening Ireland is really going to be a good look for us on the world stage. |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:30:41 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 17:30:41 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group? TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does. |
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952 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:31:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by vdcni on Apr 2, 2019 17:31:02 GMT
And it's gone so well so far in this process.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:31:17 GMT
Post by sf on Apr 2, 2019 17:31:17 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support.
It's worse than that. It's nothing more than a cynical attempt to con the public into making Corbyn share the blame for her own failure.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 17:35:20 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 17:35:20 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support. Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:01:57 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 18:01:57 GMT
Well, May’s statement saying that she will only be talking to Corbyn is a disaster in waiting and probably the least useful option to take, Neither commands the confidence of the public and anything they try and cobble together will be seen in that light. Added to that, it appears that Scotland and Northern Ireland are ignored, does she really want the breakup of the UK? As this gives Corbyn too much, when he has little trust from his MPs, maybe it’s a time to break the parties to create a new and more representative opposition, with wider support. Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere. |
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:15:54 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:15:54 GMT
Behave yourself. Two and a half years too late. The only sensible option This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere. Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:23:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 18:23:49 GMT
This isn’t a step forward as, at this point, neither May nor Corbyn have any credibility. Any they had at the last election has evaporated. The electorate do have a memory, they know May’s deal is over, they also know that Corbyn has no place at the table when he is at odds with his party. Both must go before we can get anywhere. Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust. |
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:36:10 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:36:10 GMT
Parliamentary party. Leader of really large political party who keeps getting elected by a landslide. You know the parliamentary party is further to the right of it's leader and you know the reasons why The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust. I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership? |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:42:35 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 18:42:35 GMT
The memberships of both the Tory and Labour parties are, in fact, where I place a lot of the greatest blame. They have both supported intransigent ideologues as their leader, people incapable of reflecting anything beyond that membership. When the history is written as to how this happened and what led to the breakup of the two party system, handing the keys of government to an electorate within an electorate, one more extreme than the full electorate, will be exhibit A. I look upon anyone who is a paid up member of a political party with great distrust. I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership? They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing). |
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573 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:47:16 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Apr 2, 2019 18:47:16 GMT
Can't the EU force the UK to choose between her deal or remain?
Or force the UK to choose between no extension or long extension?
Why would the EU accept some short extension once again when May has no idea what will come out of it?
For May to start a reconnaissance phase at this point to look for a deal should be out of the question.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
I agree with you with the Conservative Party. Why do you think the Labour party membership? They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing). Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU? |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:34:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 19:34:48 GMT
They elected Corbyn (I appreciate that you will disagree with my belief that this was a bad thing). Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU? That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness. |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:38:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 19:38:34 GMT
The membership of the Tory party likely backs Brexit and I'd bet that the majority of Labour Party members back JC's views. If anything if there is a snap election these factions will look to push their candidates forward.
Vince Cable will be stepping down soon, May will likely be gone by autumn but I don't see Corbyn going anywhere soon or if he did it would be for a like minded younger person.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:43:54 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 19:43:54 GMT
Ok. I was going to say, had a quick look and I think I am correct in saying the Labour Party (membership) position is quite close to yours on the EU? That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness. For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum. |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 19:57:27 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Apr 2, 2019 19:57:27 GMT
I also thought Nick Boles would have crossed the floor to join the Independent Group? TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does. Nick Boles supports remain, or he did in the 2016, making him compatible with the TIG. |
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2,342 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 20:01:34 GMT
TIG do not want Brexit, Boles does. Nick Boles supports remain, or he did in the 2016, making him compatible with the TIG. Think he isn't joining them to show some dignity of his position |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 20:02:07 GMT
That may be the case but they elected someone who has done his best to stifle that. I would hope that the price of any support would be a referendum on what they come up with; that, at least, would show an appreciation of their collective weakness. For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum. Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
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2,342 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Apr 2, 2019 20:15:59 GMT
For the right reason idealistically and tactically in my opinion. Still far greater chance of an election than a referendum. Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
Why is an election bad? Seems a strange comment to me |
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Brexit
Apr 2, 2019 20:29:19 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 20:29:19 GMT
Those who were seeking an election are as bad, in my book, as the ERGers and the DUP, party politics as its most disgusting.
An election is worthless at this point, absolutely worthless.
Why is an election bad? Seems a strange comment to me Because Brexit is the problem. An election isn't about Brexit but far too many other competing and contradictory issues.
The only election that would help us is a coupon election where MPs do not stand for parties but for whatever form of Brexit they support. That would bring the matter to a conclusion and, having achieved its one objective, it would then need to dissolve itself so that a party election could take place for a new parliament. You may as well just have a referendum.
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