573 posts
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Brexit
Mar 29, 2019 22:14:08 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Mar 29, 2019 22:14:08 GMT
Her threats should not matter anymore. She is incapable. She failed and she has no interest in what the people want.
The public has to interfere now.
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4,995 posts
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Brexit
Mar 29, 2019 23:01:22 GMT
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 29, 2019 23:01:22 GMT
I hope Terry's blue paint is made in the UK and by a company that is owned by UK folk
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 0:05:27 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 0:05:27 GMT
160 mps in Parliament want a no deal out of 650.
Theresa May will now do everything in her limited power to not be held ransom to the hard brexiters, she would rather elect MEPs now just to spite them.
Meanwhile the European Parliament will do what it has always done and that is be more than reasonable and not once have they forced us to taste our own medicine.
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Post by olliebean on Mar 30, 2019 7:52:04 GMT
Theresa May will now do everything in her limited power to not be held ransom to the hard brexiters, she would rather elect MEPs now just to spite them. You think? I get the impression somewhat that she'd allow us to crash out with no deal rather than accept any alternative to her deal.
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573 posts
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 8:47:57 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Mar 30, 2019 8:47:57 GMT
For her it's a case of losing face. Not about what the people want or what is best for the country.
She needs to get out of the way with her 3 times rejected deal. We need to proceed. Any time wasted on her tunnel vision is wasted time.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 9:07:49 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Mar 30, 2019 9:07:49 GMT
She's appeased the ERG all the way, hard to see why she'd stop now.
If it's between No Deal and revoke she's given every indication she'd go for no deal.
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 13:48:24 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 13:48:24 GMT
If she wanted to appease the ERG she would’ve dropped the backstop, so that doesn’t sound accurate, she just wanted to get her version of Brexit through Come hell or high water. Her red lines is immigration, as I said she is a middle class pearl clutching racist, no she would never use racist language, but as we saw with her caravans and windrush she is a racist.
Today’s Guardian reports she is going to attempt to get her bill through on the 4th attempt next week, good luck with that one, even if she does succeed which is unlikely, the elephant is still in the room.
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 13:49:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 13:49:22 GMT
Even if the 28 hardline Tories came over, the numbers still don't quite add up and Labour MPs supporting the deal might not want to see it passed that way. I think some Tory remainers could go back the other way. The EU don't want a no deal so we need to see what hand they play.
My view is I voted Leave so did the majority of the people so it needs to be sorted so we leave. I honestly didn't think Leave would win although it was what I supported and maybe the powers that be were a bit complacent after the Scottish Referendum and Alternative Vote Referendum were both rejected in recent years.
Another Election could well result in stalemate again and we'd have a likely minority government propped up somehow which could lead to a further election. So I think that those elected now need to get some sort of agreement that they can back to a clear majority.
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Post by olliebean on Mar 30, 2019 23:12:19 GMT
If she wanted to appease the ERG she would’ve dropped the backstop, so that doesn’t sound accurate, she just wanted to get her version of Brexit through Come hell or high water. She can't drop the backstop. The EU won't let her, for very good reasons. Moreover, the ERG know perfectly well that she can't drop the backstop, which is why they keep asking her to do so - it wastes time, which brings a no deal outcome more likely, which is their preferred outcome. Besides which, I believe it would be illegal under current UK law to have border checks between NI and the ROI, which would be necessary without some sort of customs alignment. (And which also technically makes no-deal illegal, not that I think May or the ERG give a toss about that.)
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Brexit
Mar 30, 2019 23:52:24 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 30, 2019 23:52:24 GMT
No I don’t think there will be a no deal as only 160 MPs desire this as I pointed out earlier, I think once the MPs backs are against the wall, then this charade will come off, sticking to the referendum result, That means 490 mps don’t want to commit economic suicide.
Even the Tory’s sole aim is to increase wealth, a lot of people agree with how they go about it and a lot don’t I for one, but a hard exit will stop this. There will be Euro elections in June and clause 50 will never get cancelled, it will just conviently get forgotten.
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573 posts
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 10:17:20 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Mar 31, 2019 10:17:20 GMT
This is an interesting article: www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/31/margaret-beckett-brexit-public-vote-dangerous-theresa-may?CMP=share_btn_twA few quotes: "Why Brexit has to go back to the people" "Beckett has made no secret of her very strong feelings about May’s handling of Brexit, and of the need to put the issue back to the people. She found May terrifying. “The more I look and listen to this woman the more I think she’s capable of doing literally what she says, driving us right to the last minute, and then saying ‘it is my deal or no deal’,” she says." “I have become increasingly worried that the house could decide something which is so far away from what people thought they were getting when they voted to leave that it could cause serious ructions. Some very strong Leavers say they don’t think people should have a second opportunity to be consulted because they might have changed their minds. That seems to me to be incredibly dangerous as well as completely indefensible.” "Theresa May thinks she is a dictator and that she doesn’t have to discuss anything with anybody." "But it is worse than that. She says May ignores the votes of a parliament in which her government has no majority. “This prime minister has actually torn up the British constitution because anything she does not like she just ignores and no one seems to be able to stop it. “The notion that you have a government that gets defeated by the largest margin in history and just ignores it is weird. If you go back, she tried to keep parliament out of it, then she tried to stop parliament having a meaningful vote. Then having agreed to a meaningful she tried make it a meaningless vote.”
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 11:53:29 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 11:53:29 GMT
This is the problem, she hasn’t torn the British constitution up because it doesn’t exist. Instead we have a patchwork of statutes, laws, conventions and precedents, which anyone in power who is minded to, can just drive a coach and horses through. As is happening with May and parliamentary conventions.
All talk of changing PM, government and such is just a sticking plaster. What we need is a movement that demands fundamental change to the whole mechanics of government and how the views of the people are represented within it.
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573 posts
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 31, 2019 12:56:28 GMT
She can push through like a dictator with "my way or no way", but in the end it's the other MP's who tend to give in, depending on how sensitive they are to her threats.
The reason she has gotten this far with her undemocratic views is because nobody demanded that the voice of the actual people is heard.
The original referendum was based on misguidance, deception, false promises and a complete lack of truthful information. That in itself should undermine the validity. Re-checking this after years is democracy. She has double standards, because the MP's change their votes on a weekly basis. There is a whole new generation entitled to vote since 2016. And now there is actual information on the table to make a well considered choice, unlike in 2016. Also, both Vote Leave and Leave EU committed multiple offences under electoral law. This is in conflict with the validity of the referendum. She can't ignore that and people need to intervene and not being misled by her threats as I see happening all the time in the House of Commons at the moment.
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 13:37:26 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Mar 31, 2019 13:37:26 GMT
As was pointed out by Helen Thompson (on Twitter: @helenhet20 )- someone I much admire; "there is absolutely nothing in this WA that a majority opposes. It would pass on a secret ballot"
Of course she is being demonised by all sides, they are all either playing party politics with Brexit, or attempting to further thier own ambitions. That's the heart of the public's frustration, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 13:46:17 GMT
As was pointed out by Helen Thompson (on Twitter: @helenhet20 )- someone I much admire; "there is absolutely nothing in this WA that a majority opposes. It would pass on a secret ballot". In the end that is meaningless, though. It’s akin to saying that a hungry person would accept a sandwich when really they were told to expect a three course meal. The vote is not on whether something is better than nothing, it’s to do with being forced to accept something that you know is well below what was promised. If May had come back with a deal that fulfilled all of the promises that were given by leave in the referendum then it would pass the Commons. What she offers is so incredibly short of those promises then it could only pass through blackmailing parliament and, apart from the very weakest politicians such as Johnson, Raab, Rees Mogg et al, it has not worked. That is, in any circumstance, unacceptable. If they can’t fulfil the promises that were made then the result is undeliverable. If the result is undeliverable then ask people what they would prefer instead.
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 13:51:11 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Mar 31, 2019 13:51:11 GMT
It's not supposed to be the answer. I was pointing to the blame game all sides are using to deflect from themselves.
The majority can live with her deal, they just can't be seen to live with it. For example, there is barely a fag paper's width between her deal and Labour, but Labour want a crisis and a General Election.
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573 posts
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 13:59:18 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Mar 31, 2019 13:59:18 GMT
If May had come back with a deal that fulfilled all of the promises that were given by leave in the referendum then it would pass the Commons. What she offers is so incredibly short of those promises then it could only pass through blackmailing parliament and, apart from the very weakest politicians such as Johnson, Raab, Rees Mogg et al, it has not worked. That is, in any circumstance, unacceptable. If they can’t fulfil the promises that were made then the result is undeliverable. If the result is undeliverable then ask people what they would prefer instead. This text should go viral and should be the main subject of every discussion now. Very well written. This is the actual point. And yet, many mp's, May herself, and the pro-Brexiteers seem to completely miss it.
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573 posts
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 31, 2019 14:02:25 GMT
It's not supposed to be the answer. I was pointing to the blame game all sides are using to deflect from themselves.
The majority can live with her deal, they just can't be seen to live with it. For example, there is barely a fag paper's width between her deal and Labour, but Labour want a crisis and a General Election. I think every standpoint is now based on losing face, getting their way, personal gain or being threatened enough to fall for it. The only right thing is going back to the people or to cancel Brexit in its entirety.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 31, 2019 14:05:27 GMT
It's not supposed to be the answer. I was pointing to the blame game all sides are using to deflect from themselves.
The majority can live with her deal, they just can't be seen to live with it. For example, there is barely a fag paper's width between her deal and Labour, but Labour want a crisis and a General Election. Are you sure?
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19,806 posts
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 14:17:46 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 31, 2019 14:17:46 GMT
Anyone know who the youngish black Labour MP with the long braids who sits next to Jeremy Corbyn is? Dawn Butler. (Friend of Jamie Oliver 😆)
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 15:48:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 15:48:07 GMT
It's not supposed to be the answer. I was pointing to the blame game all sides are using to deflect from themselves.
The majority can live with her deal, they just can't be seen to live with it. For example, there is barely a fag paper's width between her deal and Labour, but Labour want a crisis and a General Election. I think every standpoint is now based on losing face, getting their way, personal gain or being threatened enough to fall for it. The only right thing is going back to the people or to cancel Brexit in its entirety. Which is bit of a paradox in itself, as the only people capable of putting it back to a vote or straight up canceling Brexit wouldn't do it because of what they have to loose in terms of reputation and potential financial gain.
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573 posts
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 16:16:20 GMT
Post by Dave25 on Mar 31, 2019 16:16:20 GMT
the only people capable of putting it back to a vote or straight up canceling Brexit wouldn't do it because of what they have to loose in terms of reputation and potential financial gain. Hopefully the same logic applies to the choice of accepting her (3 times rejected) deal. And to a no-deal Brexit for that matter.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Mar 31, 2019 18:44:49 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 31, 2019 18:44:49 GMT
I think every standpoint is now based on losing face, getting their way, personal gain or being threatened enough to fall for it. The only right thing is going back to the people or to cancel Brexit in its entirety. Which is bit of a paradox in itself, as the only people capable of putting it back to a vote or straight up canceling Brexit wouldn't do it because of what they have to loose in terms of reputation and potential financial gain. Financial gain?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 18:58:23 GMT
Which is bit of a paradox in itself, as the only people capable of putting it back to a vote or straight up canceling Brexit wouldn't do it because of what they have to loose in terms of reputation and potential financial gain. Financial gain? Apart from the Capital Group investment funds May's Husband would be privvy to paying tax on as a result of the EU tax avoidance directive, who knows who else is taking bribes or *sorry* donations to vote, push or prevent anything. The whole last few years have exposed the lot of them as cheating, lying scum. I don't trust any of them.
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311 posts
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Post by olliebean on Mar 31, 2019 22:36:25 GMT
Not to mention Jacob Rees-Mogg's father literally wrote the book on how to profit from misery and disaster.
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