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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 21:24:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:24:50 GMT
Very much so. He’s the epitome of ‘Third Way’ centrism. With both main parties pushing leftwards or rightwards it can’t be long before a viable centrist politician starts to gain support. With Blair, then Cameron, they came from existing parties but it’s quite likely that the memberships of each are now so ideologically purist that they are going to be unwilling and/or unable to react. Blair was successful because he drew the best from the left and right which is what a perfect centrist should do. I know that should sound obvious but until him the center ground was perceived to be held by the Lib Dems who were anything but. |
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 22:30:42 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Mar 25, 2019 22:30:42 GMT
I thought Blair was a pretty standard one nation Tory ..
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 22:58:08 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 25, 2019 22:58:08 GMT
I thought Tony Blair typified the Liberals.
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 22:59:57 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 25, 2019 22:59:57 GMT
With tonight’s vote, where parliament takes control of Brexit, means Theresa May has completely been undermined and her position is now undeniable, I expect her gone by the time the second post arrives.
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Post by lynette on Mar 25, 2019 23:21:26 GMT
You get a second post?
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 1:12:06 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 1:12:06 GMT
Very much so. He’s the epitome of ‘Third Way’ centrism. With both main parties pushing leftwards or rightwards it can’t be long before a viable centrist politician starts to gain support. With Blair, then Cameron, they came from existing parties but it’s quite likely that the memberships of each are now so ideologically purist that they are going to be unwilling and/or unable to react. Blair was successful because he drew the best from the left and right which is what a perfect centrist should do. I know that should sound obvious but until him the center ground was perceived to be held by the Lib Dems who were anything but. Lib Dems are a broad church and, to be clear, very much centrist. There is a peculiar lack of understanding of liberalism in this country, yet it, and the Liberal party, had as great a history as both current main parties, from Locke, Keynes, Mill and onwards. The merger with the SDP brought an added strain of social democracy, making them range from laissez faire soft right orange bookers through to soft left ex SDPers. A mix of social and economic liberalism that places them very much as centrists drawing from soft left and right. As you spelled centre as center, I’m wondering if you are American? The American political system has twisted the term liberal so that their usage of it makes little sense to anyone interested in political history. As far as they are concerned a liberal democrat is far left, which really makes no sense. |
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 7:31:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 7:31:13 GMT
Blair was successful because he drew the best from the left and right which is what a perfect centrist should do. I know that should sound obvious but until him the center ground was perceived to be held by the Lib Dems who were anything but. Lib Dems are a broad church and, to be clear, very much centrist. There is a peculiar lack of understanding of liberalism in this country, yet it, and the Liberal party, had as great a history as both current main parties, from Locke, Keynes, Mill and onwards. The merger with the SDP brought an added strain of social democracy, making them range from laissez faire soft right orange bookers through to soft left ex SDPers. A mix of social and economic liberalism that places them very much as centrists drawing from soft left and right. As you spelled centre as center, I’m wondering if you are American? The American political system has twisted the term liberal so that their usage of it makes little sense to anyone interested in political history. As far as they are concerned a liberal democrat is far left, which rea lly makes no sense. Definitely not an American, definitely the fault of not setting my auto correct to proper English! You are right, the SDP were true centerists but I think the Lib Dems definitely concentrated more on drawing from the left. |
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 9:19:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 9:19:47 GMT
Lib Dems are a broad church and, to be clear, very much centrist. There is a peculiar lack of understanding of liberalism in this country, yet it, and the Liberal party, had as great a history as both current main parties, from Locke, Keynes, Mill and onwards. The merger with the SDP brought an added strain of social democracy, making them range from laissez faire soft right orange bookers through to soft left ex SDPers. A mix of social and economic liberalism that places them very much as centrists drawing from soft left and right. As you spelled centre as center, I’m wondering if you are American? The American political system has twisted the term liberal so that their usage of it makes little sense to anyone interested in political history. As far as they are concerned a liberal democrat is far left, which rea lly makes no sense. Definitely not an American, definitely the fault of not setting my auto correct to proper English! You are right, the SDP were true centerists but I think the Lib Dems definitely concentrated more on drawing from the left. That was a complete misconception and explains why there was so much moaning about the coalition. Too many on the left saw Lib Dems as close to them when they were also just as close to the tory 'wets' of the time. It should have been no surprise that a soft right Cameron government was worked with and any cries of betrayal were misplaced. |
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 15:51:45 GMT
Post by basi1faw1ty on Mar 26, 2019 15:51:45 GMT
Brexit sounds like a good idea now, given Article 13/Article 11 has just been approved by the EU Parliament.
Song parodies? Gone.
Animated gifs? Nope.
Memes? Illegal.
Uploading clips or screencaps from films and TV shows to the internet? No more.
Basically anything that contains copyrighted content will not be allowed online any more in the EU if you do not own it.
Also if you link or post snippets of a review or news article from a mainstream source, you now have to pay a license fee for it. Yes, that's right, it's that bad.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 15:56:31 GMT
Post by vdcni on Mar 26, 2019 15:56:31 GMT
Oh no - people might earn money for what they create! How terrible.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 16:03:19 GMT
Brexit sounds like a good idea now, given Article 13/Article 11 has just been approved by the EU Parliament. Song parodies? Gone. Animated gifs? Nope. Memes? Illegal. Uploading clips or screencaps from films and TV shows to the internet? No more. Basically anything that contains copyrighted content will not be allowed online any more in the EU if you do not own it. Also if you link or post snippets of a review or news article from a mainstream source, you now have to pay a license fee for it. Yes, that's right, it's that bad. Well, Sellafield will be able to resume dumping hundreds of litres of toxic, radioactive waste into the seas polluting our food chain, med prices will rise whilst nurse staffing figures plummet, etc etc but we'll still have our memes. In all seriousness, the copyright laws are seriously out of date and are in-part fundamentally to blame for the crash of the Music Industry. Also parodies are covered by an exemption rule of A13, as are memes. Apparently. |
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 16:08:22 GMT
Post by basi1faw1ty on Mar 26, 2019 16:08:22 GMT
Brexit sounds like a good idea now, given Article 13/Article 11 has just been approved by the EU Parliament. Song parodies? Gone. Animated gifs? Nope. Memes? Illegal. Uploading clips or screencaps from films and TV shows to the internet? No more. Basically anything that contains copyrighted content will not be allowed online any more in the EU if you do not own it. Also if you link or post snippets of a review or news article from a mainstream source, you now have to pay a license fee for it. Yes, that's right, it's that bad. In all seriousness, the copyright laws are seriously out of date and are in-part fundamentally to blame for the crash of the Music Industry. Also parodies are covered by an exemption rule of A13, as are memes. Apparently. Maybe I've reading too much into it (or indeed not enough). Let's hope that exemption is true. Also implementing a copyright filter for nearly everything posted online would be an almost impossible task. |
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Post by sf on Mar 26, 2019 16:14:51 GMT
Brexit sounds like a good idea now, given Article 13/Article 11 has just been approved by the EU Parliament. Song parodies? Gone. Animated gifs? Nope. Memes? Illegal. Uploading clips or screencaps from films and TV shows to the internet? No more. Basically anything that contains copyrighted content will not be allowed online any more in the EU if you do not own it. Also if you link or post snippets of a review or news article from a mainstream source, you now have to pay a license fee for it. Yes, that's right, it's that bad. Well, Sellafield will be able to resume dumping hundreds of litres of toxic, radioactive waste into the seas polluting our food chain, med prices will rise whilst nurse staffing figures plummet, etc etc but we'll still have our memes. In all seriousness, the copyright laws are seriously out of date and are in-part fundamentally to blame for the crash of the Music Industry. Also parodies are covered by an exemption rule of A13, as are memes. Apparently.
And in any case, the best way to deal with this kind of legislation is to retain our seat at the table so that we can influence the direction it takes, rather than walking away. Any outcome that leaves us outside the EU will turn us into rule-takers, and the only question is whose rules.
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Brexit
Mar 26, 2019 18:21:35 GMT
Post by david on Mar 26, 2019 18:21:35 GMT
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 26, 2019 18:39:20 GMT
You are speaking for yourself, as a centrist, whatever you mean by that. Not leader of the opposition, not a left wing leader of the Labour party. Not of a country where so many areas that voted to leave were traditional Corbyn supporters. The one area I don't think you are listening to is why large swathes of these communities did vote to leave. As I said, you speak quite well on the subject, in my opinion you need to improve here. How remarkably, breathtakingly condescending of you. I am speaking as a (former) Labour voter in a northern town - a Labour stronghold with two Labour MPs, one of whom has a majority of over 8,000 and the other of whom has a majority of around 17,000 - in which the Leave vote was 10% above the national average. I'm also speaking as someone who is more than happy to see the Labour Party take a decisive step back towards the left. I know very well indeed why my neighbours voted to leave the EU, because I speak to them. I also know what they think of Mr. Corbyn; in general, they like him less than I do. Sorry fella if I was condescending. Not my intention, just good political debate. See I don't know so many of this demographic voted to leave the EU. Something I have tried to discover but I still have no conclusion. I think this is a big issue for Corbyn and the left wing in this country, no solutions, but it is massive. |
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 17:42:16 GMT
Post by londonmzfitz on Mar 27, 2019 17:42:16 GMT
The Independent Group have sent a tweet out about Anna Soubry's speech today and my pal in Nebraska who works for the Grand Island Independent ( @theindependent) is fighting off a thousand tweets about Brexit ...
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 18:10:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 18:10:53 GMT
Apparently May has said she will go before the next stage of negotiations (yes, folks, this is merely the end of the beginning, there could be years more of this). This is supposed to get her withdrawal agreement passed, even though circumstances point to that being the last thing that the public want. She will also go if it fails, however, which would appear to be a saner outcome for all.
Why are they still blundering on with it? The hated (by the public and most of parliament) withdrawal agreement is not a stable foundation on which to build! If it can only pass through its architect resigning then it hasn’t even got anyone still in place to follow it through! How on earth is that going to carry the public? It’s just taunting the electorate by giving them what they hate because they’ve got nothing positive left to give.
There are only two ways to honour the result, as far as I can see, go back and negotiate for something better that delivers on what was promised or ask people if they are prepared to accept their vastly inferior offer.
I have both sides in my family, the leavers angry that promises are not being delivered and remainers as they feel that they lost to promises that were never deliverable, it’s broken any trust in politicians and the point of voting in the first place.
Each week just gets worse......
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 27, 2019 18:38:29 GMT
I thought Tony Blair typified the Liberals. Apart from following a right wing US President into war what right wing policies did Blair have? Investment in Health Service, Education, social services, pensioners and minimum wage must be in his left wing column? So abolishing clause 4 was a bit further right wing than myself but didn't make him David Cameron. Yeah I know he invested on the back of a thriving financial sector and some ridiculous PFI projects but it is still tax and spend. We just will pay back more and for longer than other tax and spend policies. Good Friday agreement hardly makes him right wing, Thatcher and Corbyn had been taking to Adams for years before. Right wing of the Labour party, just can't think of any policies that particularly made him right wing. |
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Post by sparky5000 on Mar 27, 2019 18:40:44 GMT
So basically what this confirms to us is that the hardcore Brexiteers are as self serving as we always thought they were! They wouldnt back the withdrawal agreement for actually delivering brexit, or because they thinks it’s the best thing for the country right now. They’ll appparently back it now however because it gets rid of the PM 🙄 .... thrilled at the thought of Boris Johnson insulting and hacking his way through further EU negotiations. For all TM’s faults, at least she’s ways been respectful.
The thought of the leading parties’ leaders potentially being Corbyn for Labour and Boris or Rees-Mogg for the Conservatives fills me with dread!
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 19:07:17 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 27, 2019 19:07:17 GMT
Apparently Boris the Boa slithered out of the 1922 Committee smiling ear to ear, but saying nothing.
To pass Theresa May’s bill shouldn’t be conditional on her resigning, it should be about what the member of Parliament thinks is the correct thing for the country. As for Boris and Jacob who forced a vote of no confidence in Theresa 3 months ago and stated that “this bill was worse than staying in Europe” and that “it has wrapped Britain in a suicide vest and handed the detonator to Brussels”, it was so bad and pernicious this bill, that they are willing to back it now.
If Boris and Jacob have changed their mind, why can’t the country be allowed to demonstrate they also have changed their mind?
At least with Olivier Letwin bill, it is a proper dipstick survey to see where Parliament really stands, it could be possible that a hard Brexit comes out on top with the moderates devided between a second referendum and staying in the custom union.
I now wonder on the third attempt with European Research Group buckling and if they do the DUP will do also, whether it will mean Theresa’s bill will be successful? If it passes, will the House of Lords then pass it into law?
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 19:21:10 GMT
Post by david on Mar 27, 2019 19:21:10 GMT
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 19:56:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 19:56:18 GMT
A few poll questions to back up earlier comment -
The conservatives would be so hurt by voting for May’s deal that I imagine they will do enough to get it to within 20 votes so that May can fail with ‘honour’, yet so far off that they won’t have to take responsibility for it.
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 21:17:36 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 21:17:36 GMT
The big problem with commenting at the moment is that anything you say is likely to be overtaken by events very quickly.
So, as of 9pm.
DUP still voting against the May deal, deal now going to get nowhere near passing, May not resigning. Back to how it was a few hours ago. The silver lining is that Rees Mogg, Johnson et al have now been made to look even more ridiculous so there’s that.
This may change by 10pm...
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3,322 posts
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 22:05:26 GMT
Post by david on Mar 27, 2019 22:05:26 GMT
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3,322 posts
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Brexit
Mar 27, 2019 22:09:33 GMT
Post by david on Mar 27, 2019 22:09:33 GMT
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