4,156 posts
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 23:05:01 GMT
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vdcni likes this
Post by kathryn on Mar 22, 2019 23:05:01 GMT
To be honest I don’t see any problem with foreign nationals and under-18s voicing their opinions - after all, they have to live with the consequences of Brexit just as much as the rest of us. And will be more impacted by it than many who were allowed to vote in the referendum. I've no problem with anyone voicing their opinions but it is a waste of time in my opinion and it is making parliament break off - even for the short amount of time it will take to debate the issue - from rather important negotiations. Except it’s really not making them break off from negotiations because there *are* no negotiations. May is still insisting that parliament must vote for her deal, and that no deal is the alternative. The extension just kicked the whole problem down the road a bit.
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754 posts
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Brexit
Mar 23, 2019 9:06:58 GMT
Post by Latecomer on Mar 23, 2019 9:06:58 GMT
I think the petition took off so quickly as May’s “I know what you want” speech just angered so many people and it was an outlet to be able to say “you dont speak for me”. Constantly amazes me her lack of leadership.....we need something to bring people together. She has lots of valid arguments she could use to double check that we really all do want to leave (the vote is criminal due to actual fraud in the spending of the Leave campaign, plus some of those dark Facebook messages were clearly lies)....but she doesn’t. And it is also a lie that everyone who voted leave wanted to leave the customs union and single market but we will never know how many wanted Norway+ as NO_ONE EVER ASKED! This is what happens when a stupid question is put to people in a binary choice and then a pig headed politician refuses to ask parliament for input as she is too scared of a small faction within her party. I have no clue what will happen but I do think the on line petition is a pretty clear indicator that a large section of the society is enraged by how this is being dealt with and that should not be taken of “proof we all want to remain” but as an indicator that something here is going badly wrong.....
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Post by NeilVHughes on Mar 23, 2019 9:21:58 GMT
Got a surprise this morning, a friend from. North Wales asked whether I was going on the People’s March as she is now on a charabang travelling down to London.
Living in the London bubble and the futility of shouting at the deaf hadn’t considered going, interest now piqued, if someone is willing to put up with a 5/6hr bus trip (one way) it will be interesting to see the support/size of the march, may pop down before ambling up to Hampstead for The Phlebotomist.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 0:02:47 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Mar 24, 2019 0:02:47 GMT
Well I missed the march as I'm in Manchester but I did end up in the same bar as Owen Jones so that was my brush with politics for the day!
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 13:16:28 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 24, 2019 13:16:28 GMT
I wonder what will happen if this online petition got 17.4 million signatures?
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Post by david on Mar 24, 2019 13:34:30 GMT
With talk about a Cabinet split about the way forward out if this mess and a possible coup to replace May, footage has been uncovered of the chaos inside No10 -
infamay, infamay, they’ve all got in for May!
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Post by Dave25 on Mar 24, 2019 13:44:55 GMT
I think the original referendum should be declared invalid, because is was fully based on misguidance, deception, false promises and a complete lack of truthful information.
The public was conned. They should at least take the responsibility to check if this is the case, by a public opinion and 2nd vote. That will give you the answer. This time, there is actual information on the table in order to be able to make a vote based on something. If the outcome is the same, fine. If it's not, it shows that people were misinformed/misled.
True, falling for being misled is a choice, but a check like this is their right. At least, if this isn't about politician's ego's but about the public admitting their mistake.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 17:15:58 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 24, 2019 17:15:58 GMT
it will be interesting to see the support/size of the march I couldn't begin to put a number on it, and the numbers flying about in the media and on Twitter are all over the place (seriously, ranging from 1 to 2 million) - but as someone who was in the middle of it, and who also attended the march in October, this one certainly felt significantly bigger. I couldn't get any further than Trafalgar Square, and I was towards the front of the march.
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 17:38:02 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 24, 2019 17:38:02 GMT
it will be interesting to see the support/size of the march I couldn't begin to put a number on it, and the numbers flying about in the media and on Twitter are all over the place (seriously, ranging from 1 to 2 million) - but as someone who was in the middle of it, and who also attended the march in October, this one certainly felt significantly bigger. I couldn't get any further than Trafalgar Square, and I was towards the front of the march. Did you see James O’Brien?
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Post by sf on Mar 24, 2019 17:41:15 GMT
I couldn't begin to put a number on it, and the numbers flying about in the media and on Twitter are all over the place (seriously, ranging from 1 to 2 million) - but as someone who was in the middle of it, and who also attended the march in October, this one certainly felt significantly bigger. I couldn't get any further than Trafalgar Square, and I was towards the front of the march. Did you see James O’Brien?
I didn't see any of the speakers, I couldn't get close enough. And I haven't had a chance to watch them yet today.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:13:07 GMT
Now the government ‘coup’ appears to have collapsed. They can’t even get that right so how the hell are they supposed to get anything agreed when they can’t follow through on something that they actually agree on?
What what fresh hell awaits us this week?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 19:18:27 GMT
What fresh hell awaits us this week? No fresh hell. Just the same stale hell all over again.
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4,995 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 19:48:50 GMT
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 24, 2019 19:48:50 GMT
What what fresh hell awaits us this week? I suspect this week will like swallowing a cup of cold sick
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Post by sf on Mar 24, 2019 19:50:03 GMT
What what fresh hell awaits us this week? I suspect this week will like swallowing a cup of cold sick
Ah. An optimist.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 20:04:46 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 24, 2019 20:04:46 GMT
Now the government ‘coup’ appears to have collapsed. They can’t even get that right so how the hell are they supposed to get anything agreed when they can’t follow through on something that they actually agree on? What what fresh hell awaits us this week? So worried about Jezza, they'll keep Theresa
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Post by sf on Mar 24, 2019 21:07:13 GMT
Now the government ‘coup’ appears to have collapsed. They can’t even get that right so how the hell are they supposed to get anything agreed when they can’t follow through on something that they actually agree on? What what fresh hell awaits us this week? So worried about Jezza, they'll keep Theresa
I think it isn't entirely about Corbyn, who is doing a magnificent job of alienating his own side. Not all of the various attendees at that meeting at Chequers today are - I'll be kind - especially bright, and a couple of them have proved over and over again that they could be outwitted by most vegetables, but I'm sure they all - perhaps except Mrs. May - know very well that whoever is in the driving seat when/if we leave the EU will be punished for it, and probably destroyed by it. Leave voters were promised a land of milk and honey and a great big cash bonus for the NHS, and that's not going to happen. Remain voters, and there were almost as many of them, are becoming increasingly vocal, and plenty are incandescently furious about the various rights and privileges that would be lost under either a future relationship defined by the red lines contained in Mrs. May's withdrawal agreement or in the fallout from a no-deal exit, and are also incandescently furious at the way Mrs. May has not merely ignored but frequently insulted Remain voters during her lurching progress through the "negotiations" (which of course were never going to be negotiations, because our side never understood what they were dealing with). BOTH groups will blame whoever is holding the keys to Number 10 on the exit date, whenever that is. And there are also potentially serious political consequences arising from any other way forward. The coup has collapsed, I suspect, because nobody wants the top job, because they all know it's poison.
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5,073 posts
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Brexit
Mar 24, 2019 22:40:40 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 24, 2019 22:40:40 GMT
Don’t know.
Someone always wants to be prime minister for one Boris Johnson will always step up, if he did get crowned it be interesting to see what Brexit he will initiate and I can only see that being his only option a hard Brexit, which would be reasonable if the referendum result was >80% however Parliament would never let this happen, it's not just the opposition that loathe Boris.
The government control the parliamentary timetable and the government have done everything to stifle any debate on Brexit to drive forward through Theresa May’s poisoned bill?
Anyway this week a lot will happen in politics and come Sunday we will be just as muddled on Brexit as before.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 25, 2019 18:02:38 GMT
So worried about Jezza, they'll keep Theresa
I think it isn't entirely about Corbyn, who is doing a magnificent job of alienating his own side. Not all of the various attendees at that meeting at Chequers today are - I'll be kind - especially bright, and a couple of them have proved over and over again that they could be outwitted by most vegetables, but I'm sure they all - perhaps except Mrs. May - know very well that whoever is in the driving seat when/if we leave the EU will be punished for it, and probably destroyed by it. Leave voters were promised a land of milk and honey and a great big cash bonus for the NHS, and that's not going to happen. Remain voters, and there were almost as many of them, are becoming increasingly vocal, and plenty are incandescently furious about the various rights and privileges that would be lost under either a future relationship defined by the red lines contained in Mrs. May's withdrawal agreement or in the fallout from a no-deal exit, and are also incandescently furious at the way Mrs. May has not merely ignored but frequently insulted Remain voters during her lurching progress through the "negotiations" (which of course were never going to be negotiations, because our side never understood what they were dealing with). BOTH groups will blame whoever is holding the keys to Number 10 on the exit date, whenever that is. And there are also potentially serious political consequences arising from any other way forward. The coup has collapsed, I suspect, because nobody wants the top job, because they all know it's poison.
May's only success as prime minister, holding the Conservative Party together. In the main because they could lose an election to Jeremy Corbyn
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2,342 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 25, 2019 18:04:54 GMT
So worried about Jezza, they'll keep Theresa
I think it isn't entirely about Corbyn, who is doing a magnificent job of alienating his own side. Not all of the various attendees at that meeting at Chequers today are - I'll be kind - especially bright, and a couple of them have proved over and over again that they could be outwitted by most vegetables, but I'm sure they all - perhaps except Mrs. May - know very well that whoever is in the driving seat when/if we leave the EU will be punished for it, and probably destroyed by it. Leave voters were promised a land of milk and honey and a great big cash bonus for the NHS, and that's not going to happen. Remain voters, and there were almost as many of them, are becoming increasingly vocal, and plenty are incandescently furious about the various rights and privileges that would be lost under either a future relationship defined by the red lines contained in Mrs. May's withdrawal agreement or in the fallout from a no-deal exit, and are also incandescently furious at the way Mrs. May has not merely ignored but frequently insulted Remain voters during her lurching progress through the "negotiations" (which of course were never going to be negotiations, because our side never understood what they were dealing with). BOTH groups will blame whoever is holding the keys to Number 10 on the exit date, whenever that is. And there are also potentially serious political consequences arising from any other way forward. The coup has collapsed, I suspect, because nobody wants the top job, because they all know it's poison.
You meant not being a remainer, not supporting a people's vote? Didn't you??
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Post by sf on Mar 25, 2019 18:22:18 GMT
I think it isn't entirely about Corbyn, who is doing a magnificent job of alienating his own side. Not all of the various attendees at that meeting at Chequers today are - I'll be kind - especially bright, and a couple of them have proved over and over again that they could be outwitted by most vegetables, but I'm sure they all - perhaps except Mrs. May - know very well that whoever is in the driving seat when/if we leave the EU will be punished for it, and probably destroyed by it. Leave voters were promised a land of milk and honey and a great big cash bonus for the NHS, and that's not going to happen. Remain voters, and there were almost as many of them, are becoming increasingly vocal, and plenty are incandescently furious about the various rights and privileges that would be lost under either a future relationship defined by the red lines contained in Mrs. May's withdrawal agreement or in the fallout from a no-deal exit, and are also incandescently furious at the way Mrs. May has not merely ignored but frequently insulted Remain voters during her lurching progress through the "negotiations" (which of course were never going to be negotiations, because our side never understood what they were dealing with). BOTH groups will blame whoever is holding the keys to Number 10 on the exit date, whenever that is. And there are also potentially serious political consequences arising from any other way forward. The coup has collapsed, I suspect, because nobody wants the top job, because they all know it's poison.
You meant not being a remainer, not supporting a people's vote? Didn't you??
I meant a lot of things, including but not limited to that. He is a walking disaster, and his influence has rendered his party toxic. It was striking, in that crowd on Saturday afternoon, just how much anger was directed at Corbyn - at Labour generally, but specifically at Corbyn, whose performance as leader of the opposition has set new records for incompetence. The Tories made this mess, and a Tory Prime Minister has spent two-and-a-half years doing her level best to push through an outcome that would be (even) more destructive than a deal which kept us in the single market and the customs union and accepted all four freedoms (even Norway+ entails a hit to the economy compared to full membership - just a smaller one than we'd take if we left the single market), but with a (very) few honourable exceptions, our main party of opposition has sat back and let her.
But I also meant a culture within the party in which the word "centrist" has become a term of abuse, and his staggeringly incompetent management of the anti-Semitism row, and the way he's appointed a front bench composed more or less entirely of acolytes and banished nearly all his most intelligent, most competent MPs to the back benches, and... you get the idea. As I said, he's a walking disaster.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 19:58:35 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 25, 2019 19:58:35 GMT
You meant not being a remainer, not supporting a people's vote? Didn't you??
I meant a lot of things, including but not limited to that. He is a walking disaster, and his influence has rendered his party toxic. It was striking, in that crowd on Saturday afternoon, just how much anger was directed at Corbyn - at Labour generally, but specifically at Corbyn, whose performance as leader of the opposition has set new records for incompetence. The Tories made this mess, and a Tory Prime Minister has spent two-and-a-half years doing her level best to push through an outcome that would be (even) more destructive than a deal which kept us in the single market and the customs union and accepted all four freedoms (even Norway+ entails a hit to the economy compared to full membership - just a smaller one than we'd take if we left the single market), but with a (very) few honourable exceptions, our main party of opposition has sat back and let her.
But I also meant a culture within the party in which the word "centrist" has become a term of abuse, and his staggeringly incompetent management of the anti-Semitism row, and the way he's appointed a front bench composed more or less entirely of acolytes and banished nearly all his most intelligent, most competent MPs to the back benches, and... you get the idea. As I said, he's a walking disaster.
I think that you are pretty good on this subject (Brexit), but this is the one area I think that you have got wrong. You are speaking for yourself, as a centrist, whatever you mean by that. Not leader of the opposition, not a left wing leader of the Labour party. Not of a country where so many areas that voted to leave were traditional Corbyn supporters. The one area I don't think you are listening to is why large swathes of these communities did vote to leave. As I said, you speak quite well on the subject, in my opinion you need to improve here.
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 20:10:18 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Mar 25, 2019 20:10:18 GMT
You meant not being a remainer, not supporting a people's vote? Didn't you??
I meant a lot of things, including but not limited to that. He is a walking disaster, and his influence has rendered his party toxic. It was striking, in that crowd on Saturday afternoon, just how much anger was directed at Corbyn - at Labour generally, but specifically at Corbyn, whose performance as leader of the opposition has set new records for incompetence. The Tories made this mess, and a Tory Prime Minister has spent two-and-a-half years doing her level best to push through an outcome that would be (even) more destructive than a deal which kept us in the single market and the customs union and accepted all four freedoms (even Norway+ entails a hit to the economy compared to full membership - just a smaller one than we'd take if we left the single market), but with a (very) few honourable exceptions, our main party of opposition has sat back and let her.
But I also meant a culture within the party in which the word "centrist" has become a term of abuse, and his staggeringly incompetent management of the anti-Semitism row, and the way he's appointed a front bench composed more or less entirely of acolytes and banished nearly all his most intelligent, most competent MPs to the back benches, and... you get the idea. As I said, he's a walking disaster.
Was Blair a centrist?
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Post by sf on Mar 25, 2019 20:36:33 GMT
You are speaking for yourself, as a centrist, whatever you mean by that. Not leader of the opposition, not a left wing leader of the Labour party. Not of a country where so many areas that voted to leave were traditional Corbyn supporters. The one area I don't think you are listening to is why large swathes of these communities did vote to leave. As I said, you speak quite well on the subject, in my opinion you need to improve here. How remarkably, breathtakingly condescending of you. I am speaking as a (former) Labour voter in a northern town - a Labour stronghold with two Labour MPs, one of whom has a majority of over 8,000 and the other of whom has a majority of around 17,000 - in which the Leave vote was 10% above the national average. I'm also speaking as someone who is more than happy to see the Labour Party take a decisive step back towards the left. I know very well indeed why my neighbours voted to leave the EU, because I speak to them. I also know what they think of Mr. Corbyn; in general, they like him less than I do.
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 21:14:52 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:14:52 GMT
Very much so. He’s the epitome of ‘Third Way’ centrism. With both main parties pushing leftwards or rightwards it can’t be long before a viable centrist politician starts to gain support. With Blair, then Cameron, they came from existing parties but it’s quite likely that the memberships of each are now so ideologically purist that they are going to be unwilling and/or unable to react.
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Brexit
Mar 25, 2019 21:21:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 21:21:33 GMT
You are speaking for yourself, as a centrist, whatever you mean by that. Not leader of the opposition, not a left wing leader of the Labour party. Not of a country where so many areas that voted to leave were traditional Corbyn supporters. The one area I don't think you are listening to is why large swathes of these communities did vote to leave. As I said, you speak quite well on the subject, in my opinion you need to improve here. How remarkably, breathtakingly condescending of you. I am speaking as a (former) Labour voter in a northern town - a Labour stronghold with two Labour MPs, one of whom has a majority of over 8,000 and the other of whom has a majority of around 17,000 - in which the Leave vote was 10% above the national average. I'm also speaking as someone who is more than happy to see the Labour Party take a decisive step back towards the left. I know very well indeed why my neighbours voted to leave the EU, because I speak to them. I also know what they think of Mr. Corbyn; in general, they like him less than I do. Leaving the EU found its most passionate support in the old Left of Corbyn, Scargill, Donkey Jacket Foot and Benn to name but just a few. Even Blair was anti EU when first elected to Parliament. Their hatred of the EU was even more intense than UKIP and they campaigned in many elections for us to leave WITHOUT a referendum. If you hate Corbyn or find disappointment in him it's because you wasn't paying attention. Why were you glad for a jump further left??? Did you really convince yourself that what you heard or read in The Guardian - or your paper of choice - or in echo chambers about Brexit being about nasty right wing racists was true? Brexit has hardcore support on both left and right and if you were paying attention you would have known this.
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