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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 15:41:07 GMT
Rudeness serves no one.
According to those objecting to May’s national address anyway.
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 15:46:20 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Mar 22, 2019 15:46:20 GMT
I wasn't being rude. I was giving your argument the consideration it deserved.
If you try and invalidate something at least have something to back it up with.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 16:04:15 GMT
Being dismissive is a form of rudeness. Actually if those who were under 18 for the referendum are voting to stay in now it just suggests the general opinion of the country has shifted since the referendum which is fuel for the people's vote campaign. How exactly do you back this statement up then? I wasn’t aware those who have turned 18 since the referendum control the general opinion of the country. The petition is not reflective of the electorate and anyone of any age can vote. It also doesn’t validate those voting from abroad are genuine British citizen or not. It doesn’t check the names are of those living, dead or even real. On those grounds, I don’t put much store to this petition as it’s integrity is compromised. |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 16:14:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 16:14:30 GMT
now, now...
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952 posts
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 16:14:49 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Mar 22, 2019 16:14:49 GMT
I know in the leaver world evidence is a dirty word but some kind of logical argument would be useful.
In your original posts you said millions that weren't eligible to vote in 2016 have signed this, really out of 3m - is there any rationale to your assertion?
The BBC have an article saying it's not that straightforward to fake and less than 4% have non British IP addresses so even if half of them weren't British citizens that isn't a huge amount.
I mean in a world where over 16m voted to remain why would this petition getting 3m signatures be that surprising or unlikely.
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 16:34:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 16:34:44 GMT
I know in the leaver world evidence is a dirty word but some kind of logical argument would be useful. In your original posts you said millions that weren't eligible to vote in 2016 have signed this, really out of 3m - is there any rationale to your assertion? The BBC have an article saying it's not that straightforward to fake and less than 4% have non British IP addresses so even if half of them weren't British citizens that isn't a huge amount. I mean in a world where over 16m voted to remain why would this petition getting 3m signatures be that surprising or unlikely. Well that’s your first mistake - assuming I’m a leaver. I voted to remain but I accept the result of the referendum and I’m not against leaving without a deal if that’s what it takes. I think you’ll see in my original post there’s some clear typo going on - but if we can’t prove that millions of under 18s haven’t voted, then we can’t prove they have: ultimately compromising the petition imo as not reflective of the electorate, and certainly not making it reflective of the electorate in 2016. But that also doesn’t mean you can’t use this petition as evidence of a change in national opinion on Brexit. Not at all... many people who voted to leave could sign the petition simply to support leaving without a deal - it doesn’t actually mean they’ve changed their opinion over the merits of Brexit. So again - it can’t reflect the general opinion of the country. Frankly I’m tired of all the talk about how we should deal with it rather than actually dealing with it. |
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Post by lynette on Mar 22, 2019 16:50:56 GMT
Sadly I don’t think we can trust an online petition for the reasons we know about the internet, faking, etc etc. I’m sure there are very many genuine signatures though. Grasping at straws really isn’t it?
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 18:02:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 18:02:24 GMT
Sadly I don’t think we can trust an online petition for the reasons we know about the internet, faking, etc etc. I’m sure there are very many genuine signatures though. Grasping at straws really isn’t it? Not just bots and faking either. Whereas only British Citizens got to vote in the referendum and will only be allowed to vote in any hypothetical 'deal or no deal' ballot (there will be no 'stay' option) this petition allows foreign nationals living in the UK and those who are currently below the age of the franchise to voice an opinion they won't be asked to express via the ballot box. It all seems to be a complete waste of time and Parliament will now have to take further time out from negotiating the divorce settlement and terms. |
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Post by kathryn on Mar 22, 2019 18:46:58 GMT
To be honest I don’t see any problem with foreign nationals and under-18s voicing their opinions - after all, they have to live with the consequences of Brexit just as much as the rest of us. And will be more impacted by it than many who were allowed to vote in the referendum.
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:04:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:04:52 GMT
To be honest I don’t see any problem with foreign nationals and under-18s voicing their opinions - after all, they have to live with the consequences of Brexit just as much as the rest of us. And will be more impacted by it than many who were allowed to vote in the referendum. I've no problem with anyone voicing their opinions but it is a waste of time in my opinion and it is making parliament break off - even for the short amount of time it will take to debate the issue - from rather important negotiations. |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:14:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:14:54 GMT
No problem at all with anyone voicing an opinion, I agree kathryn. The problem is if it is being used as evidence to draw a conclusion about how actual voting people would behave, I think. Exactly. Those foreign nationals and under 18 year old won't be offered a chance to express their opinion in a ballot and, as a consequence, it is impossible to draw any conclusions from the petition. Off on a slight tangent, I know far more people who voted remain who would now vote leave than I do the reverse. Not scientific, of course, but moving in the circles I do the leave result was far from being a shock and using the same barometer I think some people would be in for a nasty shock if we did have another referendum and that is another reason why I can not take this petition seriously. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:20:26 GMT
Anyone questioning the European origin of some signatures on this petition could consider these might be British ExPats living outside the UK but wanting their opinion heard.
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Post by sf on Mar 22, 2019 19:20:39 GMT
Whereas only British Citizens got to vote in the referendum and will only be allowed to vote in any hypothetical 'deal or no deal' ballot (there will be no 'stay' option) this petition allows foreign nationals living in the UK and those who are currently below the age of the franchise to voice an opinion they won't be asked to express via the ballot box. God forbid people whose rights and status are directly affected by the outcome should be allowed to express an opinion. The nerve. It is not, by the way, entirely true to say that only British citizens got to vote in the referendum. The franchise extended to citizens of the Republic of Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus who were also UK residents. Inexcusably, it did NOT extend to UK citizens who had been living outside the UK for over 15 years, despite the fact that the outcome has significant ramifications for those of them living elsewhere in the EU. |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:22:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:22:50 GMT
Anyone questioning the European origin of some signatures on this petition could consider these might be British ExPats living outside the UK but wanting their opinion heard. They may be but, for clarification, I was referring to non British Citizens living in the UK who were not offered the opportunity to vote for or against Brexit and won't be offered a chance to do so in any subsequent hypothetical referendum. |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:24:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:24:27 GMT
Whereas only British Citizens got to vote in the referendum and will only be allowed to vote in any hypothetical 'deal or no deal' ballot (there will be no 'stay' option) this petition allows foreign nationals living in the UK and those who are currently below the age of the franchise to voice an opinion they won't be asked to express via the ballot box. God forbid people whose rights and status are directly affected by the outcome should be allowed to express an opinion. The nerve. It is not, by the way, entirely true to say that only British citizens got to vote in the referendum. The franchise extended to citizens of the Republic of Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus who were also UK residents. Inexcusably, it did NOT extend to UK citizens who had been living outside the UK for over 15 years, despite the fact that the outcome has significant ramifications for those of them living elsewhere in the EU. I did not say that they had a nerve for expressing an opinion so there's absolutely no need to take that stance with me. |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:44:53 GMT
Post by lynette on Mar 22, 2019 19:44:53 GMT
Rossi, I think sf is actually agreeing with you, saying that the people you mention should have the right to express an opinion, he is being ironic. I think.
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:46:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 19:46:31 GMT
Rossi, I think sf is actually agreeing with you, saying that the people you mention should have the right to express an opinion, he is being ironic. I think. I don't think they should have have been given a vote in the referendum and I have read the board long enough to know his opinions to know we will never agree. |
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Post by alicechallice on Mar 22, 2019 19:49:15 GMT
I think people should just take a few seconds to re-read their words before posting. If it's not something you'd like to read if directed at you, it needs re-wording.
We can be in disagreement without being argumentative.
I REALLY don't want this thread closed down this weekend because I think it's important to keep this conversation going in the most productive way possible.
Respect to all.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 19:51:28 GMT
Post by lynette on Mar 22, 2019 19:51:28 GMT
I thought you were talking about opinions in the petition. Excuse me for attempting clarification. So far, and I think we are to be held up as an expample here, this thread has shown how civilised a conversation on this vexed subject can be. Of course, we disagree. The whole country is divided into what are now a number of different opinions. So please continue, disagree and discuss. I will give myself a slap on the hand and make a cup of tea.
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 20:12:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 20:12:32 GMT
I thought you were talking about opinions in the petition. Excuse me for attempting clarification. So far, and I think we are to be held up as an expample here, this thread has shown how civilised a conversation on this vexed subject can be. Of course, we disagree. The whole country is divided into what are now a number of different opinions. So please continue, disagree and discuss. I will give myself a slap on the hand and make a cup of tea. Ha ha, no worries. Easy to misinterpret posts when there are so many and so many opinions flying about... That cup of tea does sound nice though and I think I'm going to make myself one now 😊 |
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Brexit
Mar 22, 2019 20:40:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 20:40:14 GMT
Sadly I don’t think we can trust an online petition for the reasons we know about the internet, faking, etc etc. I’m sure there are very many genuine signatures though. Grasping at straws really isn’t it? Not just bots and faking either. Whereas only British Citizens got to vote in the referendum and will only be allowed to vote in any hypothetical 'deal or no deal' ballot (there will be no 'stay' option) this petition allows foreign nationals living in the UK and those who are currently below the age of the franchise to voice an opinion they won't be asked to express via the ballot box. It all seems to be a complete waste of time and Parliament will now have to take further time out from negotiating the divorce settlement and terms. Foreign nationals paying taxes and living here should be able to vote on something that affects them. Those sixteen and over whose future is being decided without them should be able to vote as well. Denying people a say is precisely what is wrong with this country. More democracy, not less, please. It’s useful to see how Scotland opened up the franchise for the independence referendum. Voting age down to 16, any British or EU citizen and also citizens of Commonwealth countries allowed to vote if resident in Scotland at the time of the referendum. They screwed uo by not allowing Scots born nationals to vote if not resident, however, which tainted the result somewhat. Also, regarding any possible new referendum, the deal is dead. The likely make up of it is whatever might be agreed in the next couple of weeks or no deal. |
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Post by sf on Mar 22, 2019 21:19:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 21:25:44 GMT
At last a voice of sanity.
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Post by vdcni on Mar 22, 2019 21:59:23 GMT
As I said when i posted it i don't think the petition will have much effect its just a chance to express the strength of feeling for remain that still exists despite us having been ignored for two and a half years and particularly in the wake of Theresa May's outrageous speech.
It was that speech that really sparked this off, claiming to be on the people's side while she's ignored and dismissed half of us repeatedly. The petition and the march tomorrow give us a chance to show that strength of feeling is still around. I don't view it as an example of a big change in opinion.
Oh and it wasn't just British citizens who could vote; my now husband voted in the referendum as a Commonwealth citizen despite it happening just before his Visa ran out. His European colleagues who had been working and paying taxes here for 5,10 or more years of course were not allowed.
Interesting that the leave side is outraged by at most minor anomalies in a giant opinion poll but dismiss the effect of their proven fraud and illegal behaviour in the actual referendum.
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Post by sf on Mar 22, 2019 22:04:41 GMT
As I said when i posted it i don't think the petition will have much effect its just a chance to express the strength of feeling for remain that still exists despite us having been ignored for two and a half years and particularly in the wake of Theresa May's outrageous speech. It also sends the rest of the world a clear message that despite Mrs. May's "will of the people" mantra, the will of the people is nowhere near as rock-solid as she suggests. That, I think, is very important. |
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