1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 16:05:28 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 16, 2019 16:05:28 GMT
Now, maybe it’s my optimism that confuses you. My glass is always half full. I’m a remainer that supports the referendum result unquestionably and embraces leaving without a deal (if that is what we have to do). I grew up amidst the poorest parts of the country and not long after Maggie had closed the pits. But I also grew up in one of the first towns built after WWII, and know that no matter what is thrown at us, we have to just carry on the best we can and get through it. OK then. Forget medications, just-in-time supply chains, the economy, jobs, and all the rest of it. You're a glass-half-full person, you say. What's your solution to the border in Ireland? What's your solution to the border between Spain and Gibraltar? |
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1,972 posts
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Post by sf on Mar 16, 2019 16:06:47 GMT
Meanwhile there is still not one single molecule of a smidgen of an inkling of what benefits brexit will bring us. Again, exactly how is it going to help the poorest and most vulnerable people in the UK? We've gone from "prosperity" to "don't worry, we'll manage to survive". ...and in the event of a no-deal exit, there are people who won't. Even with a deal, there are businesses up and down the country that will be significantly damaged by any outcome that pulls us away from the single market. There are people up and down the country whose livelihoods will be significantly damaged by an outcome that ends freedom of movement, which brings the right to do business across borders without significant paperwork as well as the right to seek work/live/study/retire across Europe. Those people and those businesses, by too many people, still seem to be regarded as collateral damage. The "we'll survive" argument, I'm afraid, is laughably simplistic. Eventually, sure, people will adjust - but there'll be a lot of damage done along the way, and for no good reason. |
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5,070 posts
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 17:17:05 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 16, 2019 17:17:05 GMT
The only way Brexit would have worked is after the referendum if other counties in the union followed suit and collapsed like dominoes, instead they have been stolid and stoic and stood firm TOGETHER.
So if as pointed out above, we had a divided Europe, this is exactly what Trumo and Putin would want, 28 countries working together in harmony, makes us stronger.
A good example of this is the recent Boeing 737 crash in Ethiopia, where the American made Boeing was banned from flying and the USA was one of the last counties to ban it from flying, however if it was a European made Airbus, you could bet your bottom dollar the America would be one of the first counties to ban it from flying, this is how America protects their business, we can stand up to them as a union and put pressure on America, on our own we are insignificant.
I am not going to pretend everything with the EU is great and don’t think anyone can, for example where It has put strain on our housing stock, but that short term pain is better than long term gain. The will of the people was never about mass unemployment, it is very telling that not one former prime minister backs Brexit and very few politicians do, people didn’t understand what they were voting for 2 years ago (that’s not to be condescending, but the devil is in the detail), now we know what Brexit looks like, we need to have another referendum.
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999 posts
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 16, 2019 22:27:14 GMT
Now, maybe it’s my optimism that confuses you. My glass is always half full. I’m a remainer that supports the referendum result unquestionably and embraces leaving without a deal (if that is what we have to do). OK then. Forget medications, just-in-time supply chains, the economy, jobs, and all the rest of it. You're a glass-half-full person, you say. What's your solution to the border in Ireland? What's your solution to the border between Spain and Gibraltar? Given what we have learned, the notion of "supporting the referendum result unquestionably" is completely beyond me, it's utterly baffling, especially for someone who voted to remain. Unquestionably?! As citizens of a democracy in which a referendum with seismic effects has been shown to have been conducted in a criminal way and with overseas interference, how the hell can we NOT question it? I am an optimist too. But my innate optimism cannot make me "embrace" the prospect of a no-deal exit any more than "come on, we'll get through it and survive, we have no choice" will. Sometimes I think we've gone through a wormhole into a parallel universe of smiling insanity. I still have no clear idea of WHY we are leaving the EU other than that a slim majority voted for it in a tainted advisory referendum and it must therefore be done at literally ANY cost. This is f***ing crazy. Aside from sf's questions above, one of the most shocking things about embracing or calling for a no-deal exit is the unconscionable shafting of millions of UK-based EU citizens it represents. People who have lived and worked here, fallen in love here, had children here, are having to APPLY for so-called settled status as it is and there are already cases of failed applications. Some have pre-emptively already left the UK, where they've made their homes, so stressful and frustrating and upsetting is the uncertainty and resentment. Millions of people are being shat on by those "embracing" a no-deal brexit and it's an absolute disgrace. My optimism withers in the face of how toxic everything about brexit has become. |
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Brexit
Mar 17, 2019 12:44:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 12:44:09 GMT
One interesting thing I read yesterday whilst glancing at Zone magazine (the Midlands Gay Scene mag) was that there was an article about how that community had voted in the last election and for Brexit and how they would vote now. During the Brexit vote the poll of LGB people showed that 53% had voted for Brexit which was surprising IMO, that number had dropped in the 2nd poll but that included option of 2nd referendum.
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952 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 16:08:22 GMT
Post by vdcni on Mar 18, 2019 16:08:22 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 16:22:59 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 18, 2019 16:22:59 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention.
And the government was given no advance warning of the ruling, which means Tessie No-Mates learned about it at the same time as the rest of us.
Thoughts and prayers, Mrs. May. Thoughts and prayers.
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3,321 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 16:29:43 GMT
Post by david on Mar 18, 2019 16:29:43 GMT
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 17:22:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 17:22:09 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention.
And the government was given no advance warning of the ruling, which means Tessie No-Mates learned about it at the same time as the rest of us.
Thoughts and prayers, Mrs. May. Thoughts and prayers.
Surely they knew this was likely, though. The convention of not voting on the same thing again hasn't exactly been hidden out of sight in recent weeks. Simply put, it is the same motion that has already been defeated heavily, if they want another vote then they have to present something different to parliament. |
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 17:25:34 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 18, 2019 17:25:34 GMT
And the government was given no advance warning of the ruling, which means Tessie No-Mates learned about it at the same time as the rest of us.
Thoughts and prayers, Mrs. May. Thoughts and prayers.
Surely they knew this was likely, though. The convention of not voting on the same thing again hasn't exactly been hidden out of sight in recent weeks. Simply put, it is the same motion that has already been defeated heavily, if they want another vote then they have to present something different to parliament.
You might think they'd know this was likely. I might think they'd know this was likely. One of this government's defining characteristics is that in matters related to Brexit they have never quite seemed to be entirely in touch with reality.
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999 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 18:17:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Mar 18, 2019 18:17:53 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention. Maybe they can change the font and line spacing? Page numbers bottom right instead of centre? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 18:24:00 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention. Maybe they can change the font and line spacing? Page numbers bottom right instead of centre? Or get some poor government intern to utilise the synonyms function on Microsoft Word for every second word or phrase. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 18:27:27 GMT
Apparently a number of MPs who voted the deal down angry are that they don’t get another chance to vote for it. It’s the same deal, you idiots, you’re already on record as being opposed to it.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 18:45:09 GMT
Post by lynette on Mar 18, 2019 18:45:09 GMT
A vote is a vote is a vote.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 19:02:58 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 18, 2019 19:02:58 GMT
Apparently a number of MPs who voted the deal down angry are that they don’t get another chance to vote for it. It’s the same deal, you idiots, you’re already on record as being opposed to it.
And of course they're mostly the same MPs who very loudly don't want the public to have another vote on the outcome, especially if Remain is on the ballot.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 19:09:02 GMT
Could they just bring the deal back "in a new version by Robert Icke" or something?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 19:27:17 GMT
Bercow has said no to MV3 if the motion remains substantially the same, in line with parliamentary convention. Maybe they can change the font and line spacing? Page numbers bottom right instead of centre? I was thinking they could stick googly eyes on it. |
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4,156 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 20:20:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by kathryn on Mar 18, 2019 20:20:25 GMT
False nose and a beard...
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999 posts
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Brexit
Mar 18, 2019 22:56:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by Backdrifter on Mar 18, 2019 22:56:02 GMT
All of these plus a different colour comb binder.
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Brexit
Mar 19, 2019 0:16:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2019 0:16:45 GMT
What an absolute mess. And we thought the Americans had it bad with Trump.
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Brexit
Mar 19, 2019 0:42:48 GMT
Post by londonpostie on Mar 19, 2019 0:42:48 GMT
Completely fed up with the entire media running around with their hair on fire all the time.
Bercow only said 'forget Groundhog Day - do something'.
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2,762 posts
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Post by n1david on Mar 19, 2019 0:49:46 GMT
So, does anyone contradict the following facts:
- The deal agreed by the UK Govt and the EU has not been ratified by the UK Parliament.
- Without an A50 extension, we are due to leave on 29 March whether we have a deal or not.
- Every one of the remaining 27 EU countries need to agree to an extension of A50. If one says no, then we don't get an extension.
- The Speaker's confirmation of Commons practice means that the Government cannot re-present the same deal.
- The EU have said that the current deal is the only one on offer as they did a deal with the UK Govt which they said would pass Parliament.
It's all very well for the Commons to have passed an amendment to rule out No Deal, but unless one of the following happens, we are leaving with No Deal at the end of next week:
- The EU changes its deal (which they say they cannot do given the EU27 do not want to reopen a signed deal), this is presented to the Commons and the Lords, and passed.
- We ask for an extension, and all 27 members of the EU approve it (and even if that happens, then it doesn't resolve the issue, it only defers it).
- We independently revoke A50 and call off Brexit for now.
Are there any other possible short-term outcomes?
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1,936 posts
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Brexit
Mar 19, 2019 5:27:57 GMT
Post by wickedgrin on Mar 19, 2019 5:27:57 GMT
Are there any other possible short-term outcomes? No. |
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5,070 posts
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Brexit
Mar 19, 2019 7:49:26 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Mar 19, 2019 7:49:26 GMT
Get ready to vote for you MEP in a couple of months.
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341 posts
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Post by adrianics on Mar 19, 2019 10:02:28 GMT
OK then. Forget medications, just-in-time supply chains, the economy, jobs, and all the rest of it. You're a glass-half-full person, you say. What's your solution to the border in Ireland? What's your solution to the border between Spain and Gibraltar? Given what we have learned, the notion of "supporting the referendum result unquestionably" is completely beyond me, it's utterly baffling, especially for someone who voted to remain. Unquestionably?! As citizens of a democracy in which a referendum with seismic effects has been shown to have been conducted in a criminal way and with overseas interference, how the hell can we NOT question it? I am an optimist too. But my innate optimism cannot make me "embrace" the prospect of a no-deal exit any more than "come on, we'll get through it and survive, we have no choice" will. Sometimes I think we've gone through a wormhole into a parallel universe of smiling insanity. I still have no clear idea of WHY we are leaving the EU other than that a slim majority voted for it in a tainted advisory referendum and it must therefore be done at literally ANY cost. This is f***ing crazy. Aside from sf's questions above, one of the most shocking things about embracing or calling for a no-deal exit is the unconscionable shafting of millions of UK-based EU citizens it represents. People who have lived and worked here, fallen in love here, had children here, are having to APPLY for so-called settled status as it is and there are already cases of failed applications. Some have pre-emptively already left the UK, where they've made their homes, so stressful and frustrating and upsetting is the uncertainty and resentment. Millions of people are being shat on by those "embracing" a no-deal brexit and it's an absolute disgrace. My optimism withers in the face of how toxic everything about brexit has become. I have found it so hard to put into words how these last three years have made me feel, so I just wanted to leap in to say that you have summed it up so well. Thank you! |
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