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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 18:47:13 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 18:47:13 GMT
If it’s not a spider, I’m not afraid of it. My opinion is it’s mindsets like this that have got us where we are - the scare mongering that we shouldn’t leave, that we shouldn’t have no-deal, that we shouldn’t leave with the only deal on the table and the constant support for further referendums. People forget that Britain existed perfectly well without the EU before we were a member - we shall survive leaving it too. There is nothing to fear by leaving because we will get through whatever comes next - what choice do we have but to survive it? We are an island - we can weather a storm. If we get a deal then fine, but people shouldn’t complain about every single scenario and act like there’s a miaracle solution just around the corner that no one has seen yet. There isn’t one and an extension isn’t going to miraculously resolve that. I’m no Tory supporter but May is right in that no deal is better than a bad deal... and pretty much everyone thinks it’s a bad deal. So the path is clear. It's not fear-mongering. There is no question that No Deal will do serious long-term damage to our economy, and that we will at the very least suffer short-term food and medicine shortages, which will lead to deaths. People, and it's usually relatively privileged people, always act like saying "people will die" is fear-mongering, but look at statistics from how many people have died due to cuts in the benefits system already. No, we won't have bodies piling up and panic on the streets, but many highly vulnerable people will die. The world has changed hugely since we joined the EU, and so has our country. It's naive to say "well we were okay before!" All our trading deals were negotiated as an EU member state, and will therefore become invalid when we leave. It's not like we just automatically revert to pre-EU status. And we currently import more than 40% of all our food, which is a massive increase from a few decades ago. The UK does not produce enough food to feed everyone and because we're so heavily dependent on food and medicine imports (especially considering the UK operates on a "Just In Time" import policy), means even minor disruption to imports -- imports that depend on trade deals -- can and will cause serious problems. Any deal is better than no deal. And there are many other, better options, number one being a new referendum. It’s fear-mongering to suggest we couldn’t cope without a deal. We can and we will. We can still trade without a deal. Priority access to medication entering the country has already been confirmed, even ahead of food. Pharmacies have been told they’ll only need 6 weeks worth of stock in the event of no-deal, and have had plenty of time to prepare for that - we aren’t going into this blind (though it may seem like it). If any any deal is better than no deal then contact your MP and urge them to support the existing deal on the table. There is no magical, mythical alternative - the EU has outlined their position and it’s high time we did. It’s criminal we’re only having these votes and discussions now. But I don’t agree Brexit should be delayed or that we should be afraid of ‘no deal’ as a result. Part of me wonders and suspects May has planned all of this, knowing her deal will only get support from the house when time has run out. I thought that was this week, but clearly she lives to see yet another day and hopes she can get the deal through next week. I’ve never known anything like it. Normally I would say it would take the Tory party at least a decade to ever win another election after this absolute shambles, but we find ourselves in a laughable place that the opposition is even weaker than the current government - and I say that as a labour supporter. |
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 18:51:20 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 18:51:20 GMT
Leave without a plan was never what was voted for. Look back and you will find no major figure promoting it. It is the option with the least support as per the referendum and the campaign. If people are not being given what was promised then they must be shamed for it, for going around conning us that it actually was promised, in spite of all of us knowing that it’s a lie. The big problem is being lied to by politicians. A no deal leave is a massive, two fingers up lie to the electorate who were promised much better. Government incompetence being gussied up as a positive thing. Told by liars, believed by hypocrites. Anyone promoting a no deal Brexit is dangerous and must be stopped (something I said in this very thread way back). I mean, politicians lie. Shock horror. But even if they campaigned saying we wouldn’t leave with ‘no deal’, we don’t have to - that is the very point. There is a deal. A very real deal. MPs just think there’s a mythical unicorn carrying a better one on its way to us that we just need to hold out for. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 19:25:56 GMT
Leave without a plan was never what was voted for. Look back and you will find no major figure promoting it. It is the option with the least support as per the referendum and the campaign. If people are not being given what was promised then they must be shamed for it, for going around conning us that it actually was promised, in spite of all of us knowing that it’s a lie. The big problem is being lied to by politicians. A no deal leave is a massive, two fingers up lie to the electorate who were promised much better. Government incompetence being gussied up as a positive thing. Told by liars, believed by hypocrites. Anyone promoting a no deal Brexit is dangerous and must be stopped (something I said in this very thread way back). I mean, politicians lie. Shock horror. But even if they campaigned saying we wouldn’t leave with ‘no deal’, we don’t have to - that is the very point. There is a deal. A very real deal. MPs just think there’s a mythical unicorn carrying a better one on its way to us that we just need to hold out for. The deal is destroyed, it is dead, it has been savaged from all corners. You do realise that people being told ‘actually, it’s good, I’ve changed my mind’ will not believe a single word? They have heard all of these people explaining why it cannot be passed. Was that all lies? Or are they lying now? Nobody can ever put faith in such a deal. As it has no legitimacy, even if it somehow it gets passed in a blind panic as May wants, it will only serve as the stick with which to beat all of those who did so and all of us who allowed them to do so. It’s dead. Only a different deal without a history of being ridiculed, one which has not been defeated by historically large margins, can ever do the job of saving the country from its current mess. It needs time to get that sorted. They are panicking, take that panic away and we can start again. This time, properly. |
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 19:58:43 GMT
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Post by david on Mar 15, 2019 19:58:43 GMT
Just watched the CH4 news interview of Matt Hancock by Jon Snow. Jon Snow is definitely taking no prisoners here -
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 20:23:14 GMT
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Mar 15, 2019 20:23:14 GMT
How are you defining “cope”? Do you think “the rest of the country coped” is going to be much comfort to the dead and those grieving the dead?
And really using words like “cope” for something entirely self-inflicted is bizarre. Brexit was sold as this great wonderful thing and now it’s something even the most ardent Leavers admit is an ordeal to be “coped” with.
The part about “oh but they’ve been told to just make sure they’ve got six weeks’ worth in stock” is incredibly naive. Many of the medications have very short shelf-lives meaning it is not physically possible to advance-stock them. Obviously the same is true for some foodstuffs. And as previously explained the UK supply system simply is not set up to be able to store six weeks’ worth of goods.
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 20:35:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 20:35:30 GMT
I voted for Brexit and still believe that long term it will work. But we played our hand too soon by taking no deal off the table and this has given the EU the advantage. We've had 3 years virtually to get negotiations done and it should not have been left this late.
In some ways it was a pity that Scotland never went independent as we'd have had negotiations done for that and could have based our Brexit talks on that.
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 22:18:22 GMT
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Post by vdcni on Mar 15, 2019 22:18:22 GMT
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that those people wanting Brexit to go forward no matter what haven't been able to articulate a single reason why Brexit is worth even the potential chaos of no deal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 22:57:41 GMT
Our MPs have failed us and placed every ounce of power into the hands of the EU. To say we will not walk away from No, the EU always had the power because we are the ones trying to back out of a treat, break a contract. That's contract law at its most basic, and the simplest of facts that so many Brexiteers seem to ignore in their delusions that we are entitled to anything from this sorry mess. |
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Brexit
Mar 15, 2019 23:02:13 GMT
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 15, 2019 23:02:13 GMT
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that those people wanting Brexit to go forward no matter what haven't been able to articulate a single reason why Brexit is worth even the potential chaos of no deal. All I hear is pure ideology. Some have said to me they don't care what the practical consequences are, they will just be happy to be out of the EU. No one has yet explained to me how, for instance, brexit will help the poorest and most vulnerable people in the UK. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2019 23:04:40 GMT
We can still trade without a deal. Priority access to medication entering the country has already been confirmed, even ahead of food. Pharmacies have been told they’ll only need 6 weeks worth of stock in the event of no-deal, and have had plenty of time to prepare for that - we aren’t going into this blind (though it may seem like it). If you take those figures at face value then you really are going into this blind, and all I can say is good luck to you. Trading without a deal means trading on WTO rules alone while all our major trade partners have preferential agreements with each other and will be sitting laughing on the other side of the fence. We are not an export economy, we have nothing unique to offer that other nations can't get elsewhere - in other words, we have no bargaining power and that is important. The government has managed to conclude at last count 5 individual trade deals for the post-Brexit world. The number of those with any country that gives us a meaningful volume of trade is zero. So if you think trade will be easy, cheap or even always possible if there is no deal, then I think you're very, very wrong. |
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 0:11:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 0:11:45 GMT
We can still trade without a deal. Priority access to medication entering the country has already been confirmed, even ahead of food. Pharmacies have been told they’ll only need 6 weeks worth of stock in the event of no-deal, and have had plenty of time to prepare for that - we aren’t going into this blind (though it may seem like it). If you take those figures at face value then you really are going into this blind, and all I can say is good luck to you. Trading without a deal means trading on WTO rules alone while all our major trade partners have preferential agreements with each other and will be sitting laughing on the other side of the fence. We are not an export economy, we have nothing unique to offer that other nations can't get elsewhere - in other words, we have no bargaining power and that is important. The government has managed to conclude at last count 5 individual trade deals for the post-Brexit world. The number of those with any country that gives us a meaningful volume of trade is zero. So if you think trade will be easy, cheap or even always possible if there is no deal, then I think you're very, very wrong. Don’t put words in my mouth to further your own agenda please. I said we could still trade and that is entirely possible. I never said it would be without consequence, but that we could do it. I never said it would be easy or cheap. But it is possible and I am not wrong about that. Anything else is speculation on your part and an example of the scaremongering I referred to earlier. |
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Post by vdcni on Mar 16, 2019 0:49:04 GMT
And yet again not a single actual reason why it's worth coping with the consequences of no deal.
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Post by sf on Mar 16, 2019 0:49:51 GMT
Despite the assurances further down the page, the key phrase on that page is in the first paragraph, right below the headline: "minimise disruption". It suggests rather strongly that some disruption is anticipated.
It's very easy - far too easy - for people who aren't on the sharp end to dismiss those concerns. It does seem clear that there's no majority in Parliament for a no-deal scenario, not least because it absolutely is not what people voted for - the Leave campaign's argument was that we would have more resources after leaving. Unless Parliament takes decisive action of some kind in the next two weeks, however, no-deal is the legal default, and bland assurances from a government that appears woefully unprepared for, well, just about everything are simply not going to cut it.
What's my stake in this? My mother has had a series of serious health problems over the last three years, she relies on prescription medications which are not sourced from within this country, she has recently been diagnosed with a very unpleasant and quite unusual but - fingers crossed - treatable form of cancer for which a treatment plan is not yet set in stone, and that treatment plan is not going to be finalised before the exit date. I am her primary caregiver, and right now, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with her mind, she is housebound and is not capable of living independently. The doctors are very positive, and say that after an operation and further treatment - almost certainly radiotherapy - she should regain her independence. I'm hopeful, but over the next few months we're in for a very bumpy ride. It's not going to be much fun for her; as the person responsible for her day-to-day wellbeing, it's not going to be a barrel of laughs for me either. Fortunately I live with her, and work from home; if I leave the house for more than about three hours at the moment, I have to make arrangements for somebody else to check in on her, and my closest relatives are twenty miles away, which means my main support system is her friends - ladies in their 70s, some of whom also have significant medical issues of their own to deal with.
In a no-deal scenario, if there's any disruption to the supply of medications, we're going to have a problem. If the supply of any of her regular medications is disrupted, it may potentially affect her readiness for surgery. At the very least, it could lead to her being admitted to hospital to receive medication there rather than at home in order to keep her stabilised for surgery - better than the alternative, but not optimal for her, because she's far happier at home than in hospital (she spent about a quarter of 2016 in hospital). If - God forbid - the supply of isotopes for radiotherapy is disrupted, her age and medical history mean she's unlikely to be placed at the head of the queue if the consultants have to start ranking cases.
I don't think this is a likely scenario. I have to hope that Parliament will take whatever steps are necessary to pull the country back from the precipice. As I said, it does seem clear that there's no majority in Parliament for crashing out without a deal, and there are people pushing very, very hard indeed to make sure it doesn't happen - but right now it is the legal default, and I'm going to be on edge until definitive, concrete, ironclad steps are taken to make sure it doesn't happen. The situation I'm in right now is stressful and upsetting, and keeping a smile on my face is exhausting. The threat, however remote, of a no-deal exit is additional stress that I just. don't. need. If we go over the cliff, people will be harmed. People will be harmed unneccessarily. That is unacceptable, and I'm afraid I find those politicians who are - still - airlily touting a no-deal scenario as the optimal outcome of this mess beneath contempt.
And yes, sure, that government update suggests arrangements are being made to "minimise disruption". I'm afraid this government has proved over and over again that they simply cannot be trusted, particularly with regard to the well-being of anybody who might be considered vulnerable. My mother, right now, is very, very vulnerable, and I am beyond furious that our politicians - just about all of them - have led us to a point where I have to worry about whether a bright, sharp, clever 75-year-old lady with a lot of life left in her and children and grandchildren who love her very much is going to get access to potentially life-saving medical treatment.
I've got somebody to cover for me, and I'm going to be marching on the 23rd. Whatever people voted for, this is not it; at the very least, the situation I'm in right now means I have to stand up - as I did last October, and as I did in Manchester 18 months ago - and show the rest of the world that despite the ridiculous "will of the people" mantra from the liars and charlatans who got us into this mess, there are plenty of us who didn't fall for a pack of lies wrapped up in dog-whistle racism, and who wholeheartedly loathe what this is doing to our country. I find the apathy, naivety, and downright ignorance and stupidity of people who dismiss these concerns as "project fear" absolutely enraging; as I said, it's very easy to be glib if you're lucky enough not to be at the sharp end. Many of us do not have that luxury.
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 1:29:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 1:29:24 GMT
Despite the assurances further down the page, the key phrase on that page is in the first paragraph, right below the headline: "minimise disruption". It suggests rather strongly that some disruption is anticipated.
It's very easy - far too easy - for people who aren't on the sharp end to dismiss those concerns. This is as far I will read. The arrogance is uncalled for, along with the condescension. If you can’t engage without insults and infer superiority then it’s not a conversation I will have. Brexit will not be easy but that does not mean we should be afraid to walk away from negotiations if we do not like what we hear - it weakens our bargaining position. To leave the EU is the public mandate and that must be honoured and respected. For anyone saying that people didn’t know what they were agreeing to - in any shape or form - is arrogance and superiority reserved for the narrow minded. Brexit is controversial. It is annoying and a total distraction from the real issues. I don’t think anyone denies that. But all votes are equal. It certainly doesn’t afford anyone that disagrees with it the right to insult anyone that does agree with it. I say this as a remainer too. But the EU are playing the game of politics better than us. They are using us to demonstrate perfectly how difficult it is to leave the EU and refusing to walk away with no deal makes us their pawn in this. I don’t disagree that Brexit will be tough. But our country was not built in the last 40 years. Our society and our culture were not created in the last 40 years. We live in a country with a rich history and a talent for survival. We can and will survive Brexit - be it with a deal or not - and we will learn from it. But I say that looking at the bigger picture and not personalising it - Brexit is bigger than all of us and the repercussions will probably outlive us. How it impacts us in the here and now in my opinion shouldn’t be a primary view point. All that said. The only positive I see thus far is that people are actually engaging in politics and discussing it... passionately without apology. Once this mess is sorted I do hope the amount of interest continues - as it is possible that whilst the politicians are guilty getting us here into this current mess, ultimately we have allowed it by electing them without any real mass interest (as I believe we do when elections come up - party and family loyalty etc). Well no more... hopefully. Both leading parties have let the country down and I hope that entire house suffers for it once we next have a say. |
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Post by sf on Mar 16, 2019 1:36:37 GMT
This is as far I will read. The arrogance is uncalled for, along with the condescension. As I said, it's very easy for people who aren't on the sharp end to be glib about this mess. |
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 1:51:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 1:51:05 GMT
If you take those figures at face value then you really are going into this blind, and all I can say is good luck to you. Trading without a deal means trading on WTO rules alone while all our major trade partners have preferential agreements with each other and will be sitting laughing on the other side of the fence. We are not an export economy, we have nothing unique to offer that other nations can't get elsewhere - in other words, we have no bargaining power and that is important. The government has managed to conclude at last count 5 individual trade deals for the post-Brexit world. The number of those with any country that gives us a meaningful volume of trade is zero. So if you think trade will be easy, cheap or even always possible if there is no deal, then I think you're very, very wrong. Don’t put words in my mouth to further your own agenda please. I said we could still trade and that is entirely possible. I never said it would be without consequence, but that we could do it. I never said it would be easy or cheap. But it is possible and I am not wrong about that. Anything else is speculation on your part and an example of the scaremongering I referred to earlier. The implication behind your post is that everything will be fine because we can trade and we have six weeks worth of medicine. I was merely pointing out the fallacy in all of that. If you mean something else then say so, because you put those two sentences together and left the obvious sentiment to be implied. Also please read the numerous uses of "if" in my post - I wasn't putting any words in your mouth, merely reacting to the meaning I took from what you chose to write. |
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 1:56:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 1:56:04 GMT
Despite the assurances further down the page, the key phrase on that page is in the first paragraph, right below the headline: "minimise disruption". It suggests rather strongly that some disruption is anticipated. It's very easy - far too easy - for people who aren't on the sharp end to dismiss those concerns. Snip Our society and our culture were not created in the last 40 years. We live in a country with a rich history and a talent for survival. Snip Much less than forty years; a nation’s society and culture are redrawn every decade or so. Anyone who bases their opinions on an outdated view of a country is the precise problem that we are now faced with having to overcome. Anyway, Rome and countless nations have had a rich history and a talent for survival......until they didn’t. The naivety of those who put their faith in the past is as weirdly unfathomable as it is clueless |
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 4:02:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 4:02:24 GMT
Snip Our society and our culture were not created in the last 40 years. We live in a country with a rich history and a talent for survival. Snip Much less than forty years; a nation’s society and culture are redrawn every decade or so. Anyone who bases their opinions on an outdated view of a country is the precise problem that we are now faced with having to overcome. Anyway, Rome and countless nations have had a rich history and a talent for survival......until they didn’t. The naivety of those who put their faith in the past is as weirdly unfathomable as it is clueless Yet those who disregard the past as irrelevant are the most shortsighted of all. Brexit is a challenge we all face yet all I read here are posts that fundamentally imply we can’t and won’t surivive with no deal. I disagree and god forbid someone has a difference of opinion. Yet none of you seem to acknowledge the truth, which is that today, as it stands, we are leaving with no deal. We have disregarded the deal on the table. We have not asked for an extension and there is no legal requirement to have it provided. Yes we might end up with May’s deal passing. Yes we might ask for an extension. Yes we might get it. But we cannot rely on these things happening - as a number of you point out, politicians lie. I am trying to approach this logically and logically speaking, as it stands today, we are leaving without a deal. That is fact. I state we can survive no deal. Why? Because we have no choice but to survive it. Yes I point out we managed without it - why is this such a weak argument? Our most fundamental laws predate our membership into the EU. The NHS predates our membership into the EU. Even our Queen predates our membership into the EU. The EU does not define us and even as a member we have set ourselves apart from it - refusing the single currency, for example. Fashion, trends and attitudes may change rapidly, but the fundamental beliefs that our society is built on don’t. Our core values are not interchangeable and what we individually want for ourselves and our loved ones is no different to those that came before us. No one doubts tough times are ahead. I don’t refute that notion, but I refuse to believe a no deal is going to destroy the country and break up the union. Some of the things I’ve read make me feel like the ravens are due to leave The Tower any day now. (Which now I think about it, god forbid the Queen die amidst all of this. The last thing we need is a state funeral, national mourning and a coronation to organise. Plus a horrid way for the woman to go - with her country more divided than it’s ever been. But I digress). Now, maybe it’s my optimism that confuses you. My glass is always half full. I’m a remainer that supports the referendum result unquestionably and embraces leaving without a deal (if that is what we have to do). I grew up amidst the poorest parts of the country and not long after Maggie had closed the pits. But I also grew up in one of the first towns built after WWII, and know that no matter what is thrown at us, we have to just carry on the best we can and get through it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 6:25:03 GMT
Brexit is a challenge we all face yet all I read here are posts that fundamentally imply we can’t and won’t surivive with no deal.
Of course we can survive. But we don't want to survive. We want to prosper.
But there weren't tough times ahead until we brought them on ourselves by deciding to leave the EU. Where do we go from here? The Leave campaign wooed people with promises that we could go out and create our own trade agreements, but they neglected to mention that we can't just impose trade agreements on other countries. They're agreements, and with Britain outside the EU we have no bargaining power. Other countries are going to trade with us for what they can get out of it. Nobody cares what we need. So our promised freedom to trade is ultimately a freedom to take what we're offered. Which is why we've managed to agree trade with a mere seven countries (as of a couple of days ago), none of which will make a significant difference.
Britain was doing pretty well until the referendum. We'd taken a bit of a battering in the financial crisis but so had everyone else, and we were recovering. The economy was fragile but there was light at the end of the tunnel. Then UKIP started fear-mongering, spreading stories about how we were going to lose our sovereignty and be overrun with immigrants who would bleed us dry, and we took the decision to move away from the one thing that gave us actual power and significance in the world and try to go it alone without the foggiest notion of how we'd actually implement our grand ideas. We acted like we'd won the lottery when all we'd done was think about buying a ticket.
It's not even as if it's the will of the people. Enough older voters have died since the referendum that if it was rerun now and everyone voted the way they voted last time the outcome would be a narrow win to remain. And that doesn't take into account the number of people who voted Leave and now realise they've been duped, and the number of younger people who have grown up in a connected world and look across the Channel to see friends and not invaders.
And for what? What's the outcome we're aiming for? We get to survive? That's really not much of a sales pitch.
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 7:14:10 GMT
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Post by danb on Mar 16, 2019 7:14:10 GMT
Much less than forty years; a nation’s society and culture are redrawn every decade or so. Anyone who bases their opinions on an outdated view of a country is the precise problem that we are now faced with having to overcome. Anyway, Rome and countless nations have had a rich history and a talent for survival......until they didn’t. The naivety of those who put their faith in the past is as weirdly unfathomable as it is clueless Yet those who disregard the past as irrelevant are the most shortsighted of all. Brexit is a challenge we all face yet all I read here are posts that fundamentally imply we can’t and won’t surivive with no deal. I disagree and god forbid someone has a difference of opinion. Yet none of you seem to acknowledge the truth, which is that today, as it stands, we are leaving with no deal. We have disregarded the deal on the table. We have not asked for an extension and there is no legal requirement to have it provided. Yes we might end up with May’s deal passing. Yes we might ask for an extension. Yes we might get it. But we cannot rely on these things happening - as a number of you point out, politicians lie. I am trying to approach this logically and logically speaking, as it stands today, we are leaving without a deal. That is fact. I state we can survive no deal. Why? Because we have no choice but to survive it. Yes I point out we managed without it - why is this such a weak argument? Our most fundamental laws predate our membership into the EU. The NHS predates our membership into the EU. Even our Queen predates our membership into the EU. The EU does not define us and even as a member we have set ourselves apart from it - refusing the single currency, for example. Fashion, trends and attitudes may change rapidly, but the fundamental beliefs that our society is built on don’t. Our core values are not interchangeable and what we individually want for ourselves and our loved ones is no different to those that came before us. No one doubts tough times are ahead. I don’t refute that notion, but I refuse to believe a no deal is going to destroy the country and break up the union. Some of the things I’ve read make me feel like the ravens are due to leave The Tower any day now. (Which now I think about it, god forbid the Queen die amidst all of this. The last thing we need is a state funeral, national mourning and a coronation to organise. Plus a horrid way for the woman to go - with her country more divided than it’s ever been. But I digress). Now, maybe it’s my optimism that confuses you. My glass is always half full. I’m a remainer that supports the referendum result unquestionably and embraces leaving without a deal (if that is what we have to do). I grew up amidst the poorest parts of the country and not long after Maggie had closed the pits. But I also grew up in one of the first towns built after WWII, and know that no matter what is thrown at us, we have to just carry on the best we can and get through it. Yes Kevin we will. We just shouldn’t have to. To approach this whole mess in the way it has been approached is criminal. The referendum should have included actual plans for each option, not just ‘yes/no and we’ll sort it out later’. That spineless weasel Cameron should be strung up. |
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Post by wickedgrin on Mar 16, 2019 9:49:23 GMT
David Cameron...…… words fail me...……..
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 16, 2019 10:32:09 GMT
As per previous messages, nobody is saying "we won't survive". We're saying that compared to now, it'll be really sh*t. Nobody is denying that as things currently stand, we are facing a no-deal exit. We know that and are merely pointing out how crap it'll be. UKIP started fear-mongering, spreading stories about how we were going to lose our sovereignty and be overrun with immigrants who would bleed us dry And THAT was, and still is, the actual Project Fear. We also got Project Fantasy, ie how wonderful everything would be post-brexit. Farage now actually denies saying this, even though the pillock is ON RECORD saying on multiple occasions that brexit would bring us prosperity. Meanwhile there is still not one single molecule of a smidgen of an inkling of what benefits brexit will bring us. Again, exactly how is it going to help the poorest and most vulnerable people in the UK? We've gone from "prosperity" to "don't worry, we'll manage to survive". |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 14:27:13 GMT
Much less than forty years; a nation’s society and culture are redrawn every decade or so. Anyone who bases their opinions on an outdated view of a country is the precise problem that we are now faced with having to overcome. Anyway, Rome and countless nations have had a rich history and a talent for survival......until they didn’t. The naivety of those who put their faith in the past is as weirdly unfathomable as it is clueless Yet those who disregard the past as irrelevant are the most shortsighted of all. Snipped The past can be a lesson to learn from but it can never be a blueprint to follow. Reactionaries believe the latter, it is their fatal flaw. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 14:48:27 GMT
The only Brexit that will retain support is one where the money goes to the NHS as promised, where trade does not suffer, as promised, where our place in the world is stronger, as promised, where the less well off have their lives made more bearable, as promised, where nothing goes wrong, as promised.
Deliver on the Brexit that was promised. If it can’t be then parliament should be given a fixed period of time to create a situation where it can. If they can’t then all involved in those undeliverable promises must be brought to book. It cannot be allowed to happen again if we cohere and prosper as a nation.
The problem goes deeper than politics. Systemic failure requires the replacement of that system with something that works. From the bottom up we need a new constitutional deal, a codified constitution covering the legal, political and social framework of this country, in effect a constitutional revolution because the piecemeal uncodified one that we have has disintegrated before our eyes.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Mar 16, 2019 14:56:25 GMT
Post by lynette on Mar 16, 2019 14:56:25 GMT
There have been times in relatively recent political history when change followed the people, the creation of the Labour Party is one important example. We must study the past. Knowing how we got here will help us find a way through this situation. But I agree, CP, some major changes in our so called system needed.
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