275 posts
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Post by emsworthian on Mar 14, 2019 11:31:59 GMT
I don't think it will be JRM who takes over from May. I don't feel he's coming out of this fiasco well. of them are coming out of this fiasco well, no matter which party they're in! One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
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4,993 posts
Member is Online
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Post by Someone in a tree on Mar 14, 2019 14:29:50 GMT
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:12:58 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 14, 2019 15:12:58 GMT
I don't think it will be JRM who takes over from May. I don't feel he's coming out of this fiasco well. of them are coming out of this fiasco well, no matter which party they're in!
Not completely fair. There are a few - a very few - MPs who have consistently acted with integrity since the referendum, and a couple of them are people I rather strongly disliked pre-2016. Anna Soubry, for one. Whatever you think of her, she is at least acting out of conviction rather than hiding behind dismal platitudes about the "will of the people" or, worse, trying to push the country down a road that would cause enormous damage so that their investment firm can profit from short-selling the pound.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:14:52 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 14, 2019 15:14:52 GMT
None of them are coming out of this fiasco well, no matter which party they're in! One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
And a few more: Dominic Grieve, Sarah Wollaston, David Lammy.
I've been impressed by Jess Phillips over the last few weeks as well.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 15:23:03 GMT
None of them are coming out of this fiasco well, no matter which party they're in!
Not completely fair. There are a few - a very few - MPs who have consistently acted with integrity since the referendum, and a couple of them are people I rather strongly disliked pre-2016. Anna Soubry, for one. Whatever you think of her, she is at least acting out of conviction rather than hiding behind dismal platitudes about the "will of the people" or, worse, trying to push the country down a road that would cause enormous damage so that their investment firm can profit from short-selling the pound.
Oh I really do hate it when someone comes back with a reasonable argument when I just want to make a sweeping statement.  |
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:28:45 GMT
Post by sf on Mar 14, 2019 15:28:45 GMT
Not completely fair. There are a few - a very few - MPs who have consistently acted with integrity since the referendum, and a couple of them are people I rather strongly disliked pre-2016. Anna Soubry, for one. Whatever you think of her, she is at least acting out of conviction rather than hiding behind dismal platitudes about the "will of the people" or, worse, trying to push the country down a road that would cause enormous damage so that their investment firm can profit from short-selling the pound.
Oh I really do hate it when someone comes back with a reasonable argument when I just want to make a sweeping statement.
...and you've just prompted me to distract myself from the news for 30 seconds by ordering a copy of Easy A on DVD.
For some reason, I am now imagining Esther "pants on fire" McVey in the Lisa Kudrow role. Oh, the horror. The horror.
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999 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:48:42 GMT
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 14, 2019 15:48:42 GMT
The thought of a choice between Rees-Mogg or Boris and Corbyn is just too much for me. 😐 See? As I said - snot, vomit or faeces. |
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:48:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 15:48:54 GMT
...and you've just prompted me to distract myself from the news for 30 seconds by ordering a copy of Easy A on DVD. I LOVE 'Easy A'. That should have been Emma Stone's first Oscar nomination right there. |
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19,799 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:49:15 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 14, 2019 15:49:15 GMT
None of them are coming out of this fiasco well, no matter which party they're in! One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
That would be Yvette Cooper whose constituency voted leave by 70% to 30%? She’ll be lucky to get re-elected. |
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999 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:50:04 GMT
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 14, 2019 15:50:04 GMT
Not completely fair. There are a few - a very few - MPs who have consistently acted with integrity since the referendum, and a couple of them are people I rather strongly disliked pre-2016. Anna Soubry, for one. Whatever you think of her, she is at least acting out of conviction rather than hiding behind dismal platitudes about the "will of the people" or, worse, trying to push the country down a road that would cause enormous damage so that their investment firm can profit from short-selling the pound.
Oh I really do hate it when someone comes back with a reasonable argument when I just want to make a sweeping statement. Yes but it led to you posting that beautiful gif. Her hair. Her HAIR! Man alive. Sigh.... |
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999 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 15:52:27 GMT
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vdcni likes this
Post by Backdrifter on Mar 14, 2019 15:52:27 GMT
One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
That would be Yvette Cooper whose constituency voted leave by 70% to 30%? She’ll be lucky to get re-elected. Sure she eventually might not come out of it with the job of MP, but that doesn't mean she doesn't come out of it well in other ways. |
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Post by sf on Mar 14, 2019 16:07:54 GMT
One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
That would be Yvette Cooper whose constituency voted leave by 70% to 30%? She’ll be lucky to get re-elected.
...which makes it all the more impressive that she's doing what she thinks is right for the country and for her constituents rather than what she thinks will get her re-elected. We live in a representative democracy; MPs are in the Commons to act in their constituents' best interests, not to take dictation from them.
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19,799 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 16:39:55 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Mar 14, 2019 16:39:55 GMT
I’m not sure the people of Normanton and Pontefract will see it in quite the same light.
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 16:46:18 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 16:46:18 GMT
One person who has come out of this well IMO is Ken Clarke, a dedicated European who was prepared to compromise and vote for the deal rather than risk no deal. But they will never have him as Tory leader.
Also, Yvette Cooper has come out of it well.
That would be Yvette Cooper whose constituency voted leave by 70% to 30%? She’ll be lucky to get re-elected. She has a 14,000 plus majority and has steadily increased it, the only way she would lose is if she is deselected by hardline Corbynites. |
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 16:48:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 16:48:31 GMT
That would be Yvette Cooper whose constituency voted leave by 70% to 30%? She’ll be lucky to get re-elected. She has a 14,000 plus majority and has steadily increased it, the only way she would lose is if she is deselected by hardline Corbynites. Which isn't unlikely. She probably hasn't endeared herself to them. |
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 16:56:41 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 16:56:41 GMT
She has a 14,000 plus majority and has steadily increased it, the only way she would lose is if she is deselected by hardline Corbynites. Which isn't unlikely. She probably hasn't endeared herself to them. If people like Cooper get booted out then the likelihood of Labour splitting and collapsing would be pretty much 100% There is a real likelihood of both Labour and Conservative parties imploding as the current system has been seen to have failed spectacularly. |
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2,762 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 16:57:19 GMT
sf likes this
Post by n1david on Mar 14, 2019 16:57:19 GMT
She has a 14,000 plus majority and has steadily increased it, the only way she would lose is if she is deselected by hardline Corbynites. Which isn't unlikely. She probably hasn't endeared herself to them. Although given that a majority of Labour voters voted to Remain, the 70% that voted to Leave in her constituency probably included quite a lot of the 40% of voters who didn't vote for her in 2017. So she has to lose a very large proportion of Labour voters to lose the seat. |
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Post by sf on Mar 14, 2019 16:57:51 GMT
I’m not sure the people of Normanton and Pontefract will see it in quite the same light.
I imagine she understands that better than anybody. She has a large majority, and large majorities can be toppled, and she's chosen to pursue the course that she feels will cause the least economic damage to her constituents, even though it's not what they voted for. That's brave. It shows a strength of character that is, frankly, absolutely lacking in many of her colleagues, including nearly the entire Labour front bench.
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Post by Backdrifter on Mar 14, 2019 17:01:45 GMT
I’m not sure the people of Normanton and Pontefract will see it in quite the same light. They may well not. They might vote her out despite her healthy majority, or reduce it to shakily low numbers. It's entirely up to them. But this idea of MPs having to slavishly "represent" their constituents is misleading. MPs aren't representatives, they're delegates. No single person can "represent" tens of thousands of people. And it is quite rightly in the parliamentary code that an MP must ultimately vote with their conscience and their convictions, for what they genuinely believe is for the good of the country. I don't want to live in a democracy where the elected members don't act with the strength of their convictions, but instead vote according to the extent of their fear of not being re-elected. We've already seen the ugly, toxic face of disagreeing with this, in the repulsive condemnation of those MPs voting with their consciences as "traitors" by some of the media. Along with the disregard for UK-based EU citizens, this is for me one of the most nauseating and shameful aspects of the last 3 years. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 17:04:15 GMT
Which isn't unlikely. She probably hasn't endeared herself to them. If people like Cooper get booted out then the likelihood of Labour splitting and collapsing would be pretty much 100% There is a real likelihood of both Labour and Conservative parties imploding as the current system has been seen to have failed spectacularly. Would that be a bad thing really? Perhaps this whole dreadful mess will see the beginning of a new political system? The population need more alternatives to the traditional 'Labour or Conservative' choice. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 17:11:20 GMT
If people like Cooper get booted out then the likelihood of Labour splitting and collapsing would be pretty much 100% There is a real likelihood of both Labour and Conservative parties imploding as the current system has been seen to have failed spectacularly. Would that be a bad thing really? Perhaps this whole dreadful mess will see the beginning of a new political system? The population need more alternatives to the traditional 'Labour or Conservative' choice. Yes, we need parties that are fit for the twenty first century not predicated on a century old model. The electoral system has maintained them long past their relevance. |
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Post by n1david on Mar 14, 2019 17:13:05 GMT
If people like Cooper get booted out then the likelihood of Labour splitting and collapsing would be pretty much 100% There is a real likelihood of both Labour and Conservative parties imploding as the current system has been seen to have failed spectacularly. Would that be a bad thing really? Perhaps this whole dreadful mess will see the beginning of a new political system? The population need more alternatives to the traditional 'Labour or Conservative' choice. The problem is our electoral system which is pretty much geared up to a two-party system. A third party needs enormous traction before they get seats - in 1983 Labour got 27.6% of the vote and the Lib/SDP Alliance got 25.4%, but Labour got 209 seats and the Alliance 23. If we had a more representative system, then the ERG and Ken Clarke would not longer be in the same party, and neither would Jeremy Corbyn and Wes Streeting. But people in the two big parties cling to each other in the hope that they can influence their own party and get power that way, rather than having the opportunity to position themselves (for example) as a Europhile free-marketeer. We had a chance to start the process of moving our electoral system to a more representative one in 2011, when there was a referendum on Alternative Vote. Which isn't a great PR system, but would have been a start in moving to a system that might encourage more plurality. That flopped miserably, due in part to an outrageous campaign against AV which said it would be hideously expensive to implement, and that money could be better spent on the NHS. That campaign was run by Dominic Cummings, who is now a name that regrettably we all know. You'll notice the vastly increased amounts that were spent on the NHS after the AV referendum failed. |
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 17:44:31 GMT
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Post by lynette on Mar 14, 2019 17:44:31 GMT
Gonna be slow as the ‘alternative’ parties form and challenge seats. Can be fine but unlike other European countries we don’t have history of small parties,until now I suppose, going into alliances. So the Commons is ahead of the game in the country as DUP and New Indies group and the Lib Dems form there, two with proven constituents, the other a shot in the dark and only in a General Election can we change the MP. So messy. But it will happen. New parties and new alliances. Proportional representation will come about.
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 17:53:44 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 17:53:44 GMT
I think we should storm the Houses of Parliament and get rid of the lot of 'em. Now where did I put that guillotine? I think I could carry off that red frock coat.  |
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Brexit
Mar 14, 2019 18:03:58 GMT
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2019 18:03:58 GMT
Oh and I'd want a revolve set up in Parliament Square for me to spin around on too.
And a baguette and some cheese for sustenance.
And wine.
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