952 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 11:42:48 GMT
Post by vdcni on Jan 16, 2019 11:42:48 GMT
I agree on the bigotry point for the most part, most EU countries have that element but that's still misrepresentation from the media and the government. Exhibit A: I don't disagree there is bigotry from the media just that we are not exclusive in that. Our media is quite possibly worse than the rest of Europe though.
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 12:00:46 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 12:00:46 GMT
Do a huge number of MPs really want another election, I'm not sure if the reduced number of MPs kicks in this time or it's after 2020. There has been talk that more moderate Labour MPs might be ousted by their local party to be replaced by more left thinking candidates from Corbyn's side of the party. Some Tory remainers whose constituencies voted leave could also be potentially deselected.
Plus a winter election could have bad weather which could effect the turn out.
If Article 50 was still there and an Election was called with no deal in place but to take place say the first week in April then once Parliament is dissolved could be crash out that way unless the PM tried to extend it.
Realistically I think the more moderate MPs probably a senior respected backbencher and likewise a respected Tory remainer might look to get together to see what sort of leave deal they felt they could vote through and hope the hard Brexiteers would accept it and likewise the hard remainers or get enough onside to get a deal through.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 12:08:10 GMT
There isn't a majority for a General Election in parliament.
Only two things are likely to happen at this late stage - extend/revoke article 50 or Disorderly No Deal Brexit.
Trying to find a majority for any deal without an extension or revocation already in place is just wasting time and risking chaos.
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916 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 12:52:01 GMT
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Post by karloscar on Jan 16, 2019 12:52:01 GMT
None of the Tory font bench seem to have a scoobie of an idea how to move forward. May is incapable of bringing anyone together to achieve any kind of consensus. Corbyn is equally inept. Only the Irish PM and Scottish First Minister are talking any sense this morning.
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999 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 14:18:43 GMT
Post by Backdrifter on Jan 16, 2019 14:18:43 GMT
Some of them have been very open about the fact that they aren't concerned about a no deal Brexit and they just want to unilaterally exit. And playing devil's advocate, isn't that really what many of those who voted 'Leave' actually voted for? One could argue that a no-deal (however ridiculous a result that would be) is *exactly* what the "will of the people" is and that is "Leave the European Union". I'm sure that was what some Leave voters wanted/expected, but we'll never know how many were thinking that. Some brexiters use the same point you make about the wording of the referendum question to assert that no-deal is the true desired outcome, because "everyone" who voted Leave understood that to be the case and any other outcome isn't therefore democratic. But they can't assume the intentions of all 17.4 million leave voters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 14:25:29 GMT
Some people definitely voted leave because they never thought the leopards would eat *their* faces that leave would win but wanted to cast some kind of protest vote. Honestly, just spoil your ballots next time, instead of clogging up all the vox pops with dismayed explanations of what you were hoping to achieve.
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4,156 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 14:34:05 GMT
sf likes this
Post by kathryn on Jan 16, 2019 14:34:05 GMT
Remember that time they interviewed a woman who said she was going to vote for the Tories even though she didn't agree with any of their policies, because she was convinced Labour didn't have a chance of winning? She wanted to be on the winning side.
People are weird.
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5,066 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jan 16, 2019 16:03:42 GMT
Exhibit A: I don't disagree there is bigotry from the media just that we are not exclusive in that. Our media is quite possibly worse than the rest of Europe though. The Daily Express are in new ownership now, owned by the Trinity group who own the Mirror, so expect there ‘trigger’ headlines to be severely dumbed down. Even the Daily Mail is in the hands of a pro-remain editor, so the media landscape has changed somewhat.
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5,066 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 16:51:01 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jan 16, 2019 16:51:01 GMT
So me reckons a no deal Brexit is now dead in the water. Except that it isn't, as Parliament have done nothing to stop it. None of us can sleep easy until something concrete is actually done to avoid a no deal Brexit - preferably cancelling the idiotic idea altogether, but frankly at this stage I'd take an extension of Article 50. Anything is better than the utter chaos that will inevitably ensue if there is no deal. But isn't a no deal Brexit the only certainty at the moment though? Unless Parliament agree on an alternative deal to go to the EU with, the UK leaves the EU on 29th March 2019 at 11pm whether there is a deal or not, no? That's exactly my understanding - it's not a case of it being another option that parliament votes for or not. Even before this vote Nicky Morgan has said there is no majority in Parliament for a ‘hard’ Brexit. Only about 80-100 Tory mps wants this, members of the European Research Group. So why can’t there not be a bill from a crossparty back benches, such as remain in the custom union, Norwegian style or Swiss Style treaties or maybe a second referendum or cancel clause 50 all together? Bypass Government all together and not let time run out and crash out all together. i know they don’t take their seat in Parliament , but there are also Sinn Fein MPs that have been elected to the House of Commons, with something that is going to affect the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland, why they are not voting?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 17:08:30 GMT
i know they don’t take their seat in Parliament , but there are also Sinn Fein MPs that have been elected to the House of Commons, with something that is going to affect the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland, why they are not voting? The political risk for Sinn Fein in dropping Abstentionism with regards to Westminster is that in republican eyes, it would make Sinn Fein "just another political party" and would strengthen the claims of some of the dissident republican organisations that they are the authentic republican movement which could increase both their legitimacy and popular support. Plus it would also risk a split within Sinn Fein itself which could have a devastating impact on the peace process. They also simply don't recognise the validity of the House of Commons either.
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1,972 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 17:12:50 GMT
Post by sf on Jan 16, 2019 17:12:50 GMT
So why can’t there not be a bill from a crossparty back benches, such as remain in the custom union, Norwegian style or Swiss Style treaties or maybe a second referendum or cancel clause 50 all together? Bypass Government all together and not let time run out and crash out all together. That is certainly one possible way forward. i know they don’t take their seat in Parliament , but there are also Sinn Fein MPs that have been elected to the House of Commons, with something that is going to affect the Republic of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland, why they are not voting? Sinn Fein's goal is a united Ireland. Stopping Brexit would not help them achieve that goal, and that's before you get into all the other reasons why they'll never take their seats in Westminster.
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 18:44:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 18:44:49 GMT
To take up a seat in parliament you have to swear on oath your loyalty to the Queen.
For Sinn Fein, that’s just not going to happen.
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5,066 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 19:23:51 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jan 16, 2019 19:23:51 GMT
I take it you swear your oath to the Queen in the state opening of parliament, which the Queen does in the House of Lords, as she is not allowed in the commons, So is swearing loyalty to the Queen something every mp has to do personally or do they just do that by being there for the occasion? If so can’t Sinn Fein grit their teeth and fold there arms and just go in and out of Parliament as a wrecking ball for bills that are important to them.
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 19:33:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 19:33:31 GMT
I take it you swear your oath to the Queen in the state opening of parliament, which the Queen does in the House of Lords, as she is not allowed in the commons, So is swearing loyalty to the Queen something every mp has to do personally or do they just do that by being there for the occasion? If so can’t Sinn Fein grit their teeth and fold there arms and just go in and out of Parliament as a wrecking ball for bills that are important to them. Yes, they all have to do it personally before they can take up their seat and vote or speak in parliament. It can be a religious oath or it can be a non religious affirmation. In both cases loyalty to the Queen has to be pledged. No, it is not done literally in the Queen’s presence, so happens in either house and at any time that it is needed (e.g. after by elections).
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 20:16:12 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 16, 2019 20:16:12 GMT
Can I ask a question is the EU going to end? Has the EU taken more countries than it can chew? Should there be a more relaxed 'eu policies? 1. Once Britain leaves, quite possibly, over time. 2. No. 3. No. The policies are not the issue, it's the bigotry and misrepresentation in the UK media that is the issue. 1. Not a chance 2. No 3. No
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2,342 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 20:17:52 GMT
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 16, 2019 20:17:52 GMT
an extension of Article 50 But how is this going to help? All 27 remaining EU countries would have to agree to extending article 50, and because of the upcoming EU election in May, the longest extension could only be until end of June, as the new EU parliament will constitute itself in early July. And, IIRC, the EU27 have said that they will only consider agreeing to an extension if there is a "proper" reason like a new election or another referendum and not to give the UK a few more weeks for something it didn't achieve in 2+ years. EU would bite the hand off for an extension. Won't be cheap mind
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2,342 posts
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jan 16, 2019 20:21:23 GMT
I take it you swear your oath to the Queen in the state opening of parliament, which the Queen does in the House of Lords, as she is not allowed in the commons, So is swearing loyalty to the Queen something every mp has to do personally or do they just do that by being there for the occasion? If so can’t Sinn Fein grit their teeth and fold there arms and just go in and out of Parliament as a wrecking ball for bills that are important to them. Jezza does
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4,369 posts
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 20:30:49 GMT
Post by Michael on Jan 16, 2019 20:30:49 GMT
But how is this going to help? All 27 remaining EU countries would have to agree to extending article 50, and because of the upcoming EU election in May, the longest extension could only be until end of June, as the new EU parliament will constitute itself in early July. And, IIRC, the EU27 have said that they will only consider agreeing to an extension if there is a "proper" reason like a new election or another referendum and not to give the UK a few more weeks for something it didn't achieve in 2+ years. EU would bite the hand off for an extension. Won't be cheap mind Why? What does the EU gain from an extension? The misery and uncertainty will simply continue for a few more months. If the UK can't get its act together and decide on a way forward, it's better to make a painful break than draw out the agony.
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Brexit
Jan 16, 2019 21:19:38 GMT
sf likes this
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 21:19:38 GMT
It is likely they would allow an extension if they thought it might lead to a fundamental change, such as Customs Union etc. The EU are wanting to be seen to let the UK come to a conclusion. Not accepting an extension would, instead, make it look as though they were favouring one option. Essentially the EU are making sure that the UK parliament totally owns the outcome.
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5,066 posts
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Brexit
Jan 17, 2019 7:33:32 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jan 17, 2019 7:33:32 GMT
Now Mother Theresa, oh must go to mass on Sunday, but then Monday I will clamp down on immigrants, what is that commandment love your neighbour, the woman is a disgrace, such as are Rees Mogg and Duncan Smith for the same reason, Katie Howy is another disgrace for other reasons. However after the mauling on Tuesday, that Theresa and the Tories said they need Labour to have any chance of winning that vote, which she lost by a landslide, now she wants to speak with Labour and other parties, it has taken 2 years after the referendum, where she did her ‘submarine’ act, mainly disappearing, it worked to get her to number 10, she has had a horrid time since and must rue her decision. Maggie she ain’t.
My feeling is that the remain Tory backbench, Labour and Liberal Democrat’s and other minority parties will agree something that will go before Parliament.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 12:20:58 GMT
This is what we look like from the outside...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2019 13:19:47 GMT
Has Grieve (maybe one of the cleverest men in Parliament) found a way to overcome the government trying to block or delay a free vote on all possible options? Essentially he appears to have tabled an amendment which stops the government being able to control what business is discussed and voted on. Instead of a party with a minority of the Commons, along with one supporting party (Conservative and DUP) it proposes that 300 or more MPs from at least five different parties (with at least 10 from the governing party) should be required to take precedence. Essentially it removes the ability of any minority party with narrow support to control parliament if there is broader support available in the House, it also eliminates the fear of this necessitating a General Election and using it to run down the clock/kick the can down tne road again. Given that the current major problem is this blockage coming from May being supported by (essentially) a minority in the Commons on anything apart from self interested survival, this looks promising. It is more democratic, requiring broader support, and stops a minority in the Commons being able to retain control of business short of needing a vote of no confidence to stop any blocking. It retains the need for a majority for any subsequent votes, so is kept as a procedural issue as well. God knows, we need more intelligence and less ideological rigidity from our politicians at the moment. www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/secret-plan-by-rebel-mps-to-stop-a-no-deal-brexit
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Brexit
Jan 20, 2019 11:01:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2019 11:01:58 GMT
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5,066 posts
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Post by Phantom of London on Jan 21, 2019 1:43:51 GMT
I have just came back from France.
No one would say the French aren’t patriotic and they co-exist with the EU very well, they’re very happy to fly their Tricolour alongside the EU flag.
However I am a remainer and pretty sure I would vote this way again, but I have it in me to acknowledge that Brexit was caused by uncontrolled immigration, which in a way is a good thing, as people coming here as they see the UK as the country of milk and honey, shows how well the economy is doing and that people want to come here because we have a high standard of living, shows we are a great country, however the other side of the coin is that if people cannot get a foot on the property ladder they going to blame someone and Brexit became essentially a protest vote. People cannot afford a mortgage but can afford to pay someone else’s mortgage (renting), having the referendum in the midst of austerity, was never going to end well. So can see both sides.
So as I say I have just came back from France, mainly Paris, but on Saturday I did a day trip to Boudreaux on the TGV, arrived at the station, when I found out that the Tram was suspended from going into the city centre because of protests, so walked in and saw nothing, spoke to a couple of ladies and they warned me that to be careful as there is ‘going to be trouble’ and ‘the yellow shirts (gilets Jaume), will come’ and they did, I though these protests were just confined to the big metropolitian areas such as Paris, Marseille and Lyon, I didn’t think a small city such as Boudreaux would be affected, but it was, out of nowhere all these people with yellow shirts appeared with crash helmets on and scarves to covering their face, with no public transport or taxi operating, in a city I don’t know and being a tourist I was vulnerable and would be an easy target and to be honest I have never been so frightened in my life. Managed to get back to the station (4 hours early) where it was relatively peaceful, but I had to dodge down back streets to avoid these people and walk away from the station, it was all very hairy.
This is a country that should be united after winning the World Cup surely this will embrace the whole country. This uprising and I couldn’t help of thinking of my friends’ Marius, Grantaire and Enjolras. This was started over a small fuel increase and gathered momentum and highjacked by austerity, so here is the rub I fear the same thing will happen here if clause 50 gets cancelled or there is a 2nd referendum, it is not what I would want, but fear for worse riots than the Poll Tax. Although I have never been so scared in Bourdreaux as I said, it was also an eye opener.
Although I can’t stand Theresa May, I can empathise with her on this and cannot see no way out, her back is against the wall. What I do know is that changing the Good Friday agreement will not help things.
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136 posts
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Brexit
Jan 21, 2019 11:41:53 GMT
Post by sempala on Jan 21, 2019 11:41:53 GMT
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