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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 16:15:09 GMT
As a purely technical point, anyone who is alive today by definition comes from a family that survived two world wars. Or where one family member did, anyway. Plenty of people lost most of their family in a world war. Many last surviving Jewish family members were immigrants who made it out just in time. We're rightly proud of the Kindertransport. |
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Post by sf on Jul 19, 2018 16:34:14 GMT
The theory says we're striking a deal with 27 nations but the reality is that we're striking a deal with France and Germany The reality is that any single one of those 27 nations has power of veto over whatever deal we hope to do with the EU, and two of them - Ireland and Spain - have good reason to use it. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 16:36:20 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 16:36:20 GMT
The theory says we're striking a deal with 27 nations but the reality is that we're striking a deal with France and Germany The reality is that any single one of those 27 nations has power of veto over whatever deal we hope to do with the EU, and two of them - Ireland and Spain - have good reason to use it. They won't. Do you know how much the Irish economy relies on the UK market or how much Spain relies on our tourists? |
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 16:37:39 GMT
As a purely technical point, anyone who is alive today by definition comes from a family that survived two world wars. You know what I meant but at least you've got a couple of likes, eh? |
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Post by sf on Jul 19, 2018 16:39:01 GMT
Switzerland has a population of around 8.5 million, Norway has one of around 5.2. Of course they will have to dance to the EU's tune. On the other hand, we ARE far too important to the EU for them to muck us about. Money talks and our population of 60m means we'll have a far better deal than the scaremongers are screaming about.
Every single option on the table is less advantageous to this country than the arrangement we have now, according to DExEU's own impact assessments.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 16:41:12 GMT
The reality is that any single one of those 27 nations has power of veto over whatever deal we hope to do with the EU, and two of them - Ireland and Spain - have good reason to use it. They won't. Do you know how much the Irish economy relies on the UK market or how much Spain relies on our tourists? Our tourists who they will now be free to charge exhorbitant amounts for visas if they feel like it? And if there is no deal, then the Irish can really do what they like with the Republic/NI border given the British government at least isn't stupid enough to think it can start putting fences and checkpoints up again...Ireland is in a very strong position if the border is not resolved to its satisfaction. |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 16:41:29 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 16:41:29 GMT
Switzerland has a population of around 8.5 million, Norway has one of around 5.2. Of course they will have to dance to the EU's tune. On the other hand, we ARE far too important to the EU for them to muck us about. Money talks and our population of 60m means we'll have a far better deal than the scaremongers are screaming about.
Every single option on the table is less advantageous to this country than the arrangement we have now, according to DExEU's own impact assessments.
It's called dick swinging... We will ALL walk away with what will financially benefit us All. |
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 16:42:35 GMT
They won't. Do you know how much the Irish economy relies on the UK market or how much Spain relies on our tourists? Our tourists who they will now be free to charge exhorbitant amounts for visas if they feel like it? And if there is no deal, then the Irish can really do what they like with the Republic/NI border given the British government at least isn't stupid enough to think it can start putting fences and checkpoints up again...Ireland is in a very strong position if the border is not resolved to its satisfaction. They won't charge any visa fees... Did you actually travel before the invention of the EU??? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 16:42:47 GMT
Every single option on the table is less advantageous to this country than the arrangement we have now, according to DExEU's own impact assessments.
It's called dick swinging... We will ALL walk away with what will financially benefit us All. In that case I shall be walking away with continued EU membership then...oh wait... (actually I will by virtue of my entitlement to an Irish passport, but others who may wish to do so are not so luckily) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 16:45:24 GMT
Our tourists who they will now be free to charge exhorbitant amounts for visas if they feel like it? And if there is no deal, then the Irish can really do what they like with the Republic/NI border given the British government at least isn't stupid enough to think it can start putting fences and checkpoints up again...Ireland is in a very strong position if the border is not resolved to its satisfaction. They won't charge any visa fees... Did you actually travel before the invention of the EU??? Well given I was born in the early 90s, no, because I wasn't around pre-EU. And please point me to the legal obligation that states that they cannot charge visa fees once we leave, or the solid binding commitment that they won't. I'm under no illusions, it won't stop travel of course - people pay for visas to the US every day, for example. However, to make a baseless assertion that they absolutely definitely won't impose visas as a matter of fact is just wrong - they can and they may well do so. |
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Post by sf on Jul 19, 2018 16:50:15 GMT
The reality is that any single one of those 27 nations has power of veto over whatever deal we hope to do with the EU, and two of them - Ireland and Spain - have good reason to use it. They won't. Do you know how much the Irish economy relies on the UK market or how much Spain relies on our tourists?
I do - and I also know that in both cases there are border issues whose potential impact is serious enough to trump those considerations. The reality - and this is something our negotiators have consistently failed to understand at every step of the process - is that for the EU27 these negotiations are not simply about money and trade. In any case, even if they were, the trade hit to us post-Brexit is going to be vastly bigger than the hit to any other EU economy, because the percentage of our trade that we do with the EU is orders of magnitude larger than the percentage of trade any single EU nation does with us. The border issues in Ireland and Spain are at the very top of the EU's agenda, along with citizens' rights; if we simply keep on kicking the can down the road, it will cost us.
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Post by sf on Jul 19, 2018 16:57:43 GMT
Our tourists who they will now be free to charge exhorbitant amounts for visas if they feel like it? And if there is no deal, then the Irish can really do what they like with the Republic/NI border given the British government at least isn't stupid enough to think it can start putting fences and checkpoints up again...Ireland is in a very strong position if the border is not resolved to its satisfaction. They won't charge any visa fees... Did you actually travel before the invention of the EU???
It isn't simply about travel, of course. There may possibly be a one-off fee every couple of years for an ESTA-style travel authorisation, but I would have thought that would be an easy enough thing to deal with as part of the negotiations, and even if there is, it's not that big a deal. It doesn't seem to stop people travelling to the USA.
The BIG deal is the ability to go and live/work/study/retire in countries throughout the EEA without significant paperwork, as long as you fulfil certain conditions (conditions which, incidentally, we ourselves have never bothered to enforce). Take it from someone who has more than once gone through the expensive, time-consuming and stressful process of obtaining a long-term residential visa for another country - that's an enormous privilege, and it's not something I'm willing to see flushed away on the back of a pile of lies and empty promises.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 19, 2018 17:37:14 GMT
Several posts have been made today by a member who has previously been banned on more than one occasion. The latest account has also been banned. After discussion by admin the thread has been left intact due to the large number of posts and subsequent responses much of which we consider to be valid discussion of this topic.
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Post by foxa on Jul 19, 2018 17:48:26 GMT
Ah! My troll radar was correct!! Thanks moderators.
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 17:56:57 GMT
Ha! I thought I was detecting a familiar whiff of troll.
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 17:58:48 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 17:58:48 GMT
Once the dick swinging stops everything WILL be alright and nothing will change significantly in your life. Too late, already changed for the worse. Complete change in income as overseas market dries up leading to redundancies this year and probably more to come. I know my employment law so fought back successfully, others sadly didn’t and didn’t have union representation to tell them that. Now having to think about moving again, when i should be moving towards retirement. I will not forgive those who wanted this. So you want to try that again without the naivety? |
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19,795 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 19:12:03 GMT
Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 19, 2018 19:12:03 GMT
There’s not much point in responding to someone who can’t respond back so let’s move on.
Thanks.
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 21:22:36 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 21:22:36 GMT
There’s not much point in responding to someone who can’t respond back so let’s move on. Thanks. I can’t see anyone’s name blacked out, isn’t that what happens when someone is banned? |
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Brexit
Jul 20, 2018 5:17:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 5:17:07 GMT
I can’t see anyone’s name blacked out, isn’t that what happens when someone is banned? That's what happens when someone deletes their account. Bans don't affect the appearance: the account is still there, it just can't be used for posting. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 12:45:39 GMT
An older generation voted for a future that we (the new generation) didn’t want. I’m all in favour of a second referendum but I sadly don’t think it will happen. I think the country would change their mind now they realise that they were manipulated by propaganda.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 18:58:04 GMT
I think the country would change their mind now they realise that they were manipulated by propaganda. Sadly, I think they wouldn't. There's a considerable amount of research to show that when people are presented with undeniable proof that their opinions are wrong their reaction is to believe all the more fervently. People would rather believe a comforting lie than accept that they were wrong and change their minds. |
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Brexit
Jul 20, 2018 19:19:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 19:19:15 GMT
I voted remain before but would probably vote to leave now if it's a choice between Mays new deal or a complete brexit. there is no point accepting a deal where we have all the downsides without a seat at the table. Plus the EUs sheer arrogance to admit it could in anyway be at fault and try to compromise is proving the leavers point. They are aiding the growing nationalism and far right across Europe
There were lies a propaganda on both sides so not sure if that would affect peoples views. Mainly I think people are just sick of hearing it
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Brexit
Jul 20, 2018 20:16:51 GMT
Post by crowblack on Jul 20, 2018 20:16:51 GMT
Rather depressingly for a hairy old Leftie, I find myself agreeing with a lot of that John Gray essay on Radio 4 just now - in fact I tweeted something similar this morning, posting an election map of Europe, showing far right parties' share of the vote, to someone who was suggesting they would now be marooned on an island of racists while over on the continent it was all some sort of 1970s coca-cola advert love-in. It's an aspect of this whole debate I find strange. I like the idea of European integration as a sort of 18thc enlightenment project, just as I like the idea of the USA as an 18thc enlightenment project, the notion of the shining city on the hill and the words on the Statue of Liberty. But where Guardian-reading FBPE-ers will obviously acknowledge that the USA isn't exactly that - and has some MASSIVE problems - and take to the London streets to protest about it, they seem utterly blind to those on the Continent.
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Brexit
Jul 20, 2018 22:59:48 GMT
Post by lynette on Jul 20, 2018 22:59:48 GMT
They could have fun with that poll. It shows 10% changing from remain to leave. What if that were what would happen in a second R ?
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Post by kathryn on Jul 21, 2018 7:36:07 GMT
I voted remain before but would probably vote to leave now if it's a choice between Mays new deal or a complete brexit. Erm, both May’s new deal and hard Brexit are leave. That’s not a choice between remain and leave that you’re talking about. |
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