23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:30:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:30:41 GMT
£19,000? Darren Grimes alone has been fined £20,000 and Vote Leave £61,000. Still, that's not the point... You said I was lying.... Care to apologise? |
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2,761 posts
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Post by n1david on Jul 19, 2018 14:37:24 GMT
I hesitate to re-enter this discussion because it’s getting more heated but I wanted to make a couple of points. etskypehome has mentioned a couple of times that Lesvers voted for Leave because of “an array of things” or “a whole array of reasons”. That’s part of the problem. I accept I live in something of an echo chamber (live in Islington, worked in the City) so didn’t know many Leave voters. One close friend who did vote Leave though, I asked about the Irish border question, particularly because he was Irish. He eventually revealed to me that he was a Leave voter who voted Leave because he thought it was the fastest way to a United Ireland. But the DUP supported Brexit because it was most likely to bring about a hard border in Ireland. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. Some Brexit campaigners campaigned explicitly saying “we’ll stay in the single market” (I’m looking at you, Mr Johnson). Some campaigned saying that WTO rules are the only way forward. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. In retrospect, a better referendum question would have been something along the lines of “Do you agree that the UK Government should negotiate with the EU a new relationship agreement which includes the UK leaving the EU?” That would have given the government the ability to negotiate without time pressure and enabled a fully thought-through deal to be presented to the UK public and the EU27 and agreed in a more controlled way. That might have encouraged those of us who are not great fans of the EU to consider what the alternative would be. Right now even the UK Government doesn’t have consensus on what our new trading arrangements will be. Mr Johnson’s speech yesterday said essentially “we’ll work it out because we’re clever” Well, I’d like a few more facts, agreements and concrete proposals rather than people just telling me it’ll be all right. Because as we know in this world, and in our personal lives, despite what we are sometimes told, it doesn’t turn out to be alright. I want Brexit to be a success given that’s where we’re going. And so, can the clever people charged with coming up with a workable proposal please get on with it? They are getting on with it, the problem is the dick swinging on both sides. It all comes down to money (It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence as Roger Waters said) and the EU can't afford to jettison trade with us or hinder it and we can't afford not to have a customs union which will give us access to cheap or competitively priced goods. Once the dick swinging stops everything WILL be alright and nothing will change significantly in your life. You spectacularly miss my point. As I said, I worked in the City. I know the jobs that are going to the EU27 NOW because financial institutions don’t know whether passporting will be approved or not. And they can’t wait for the dicks to stop swinging because they can’t change their planning immediately. A friend who runs a consulting business has had to close it down - he worked predominantly with businesses in Benelux, and his regular clients have moved to other providers because he’s been told “this is a multi year project and we don’t know if we can continue to work with you after Brexit”. He has lost most of his clients in the last 18 months. I know people whose lives are being changed significantly NOW. So I’d rather not be patronised by someone who pats me on the arm and says “there, there”. Especially when a friend who is a civil servant at DExEU isn’t saying that to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 14:41:29 GMT
Yep, I'd probably agree, but do you know what would have a good effect on it? Not having unlimited immigration adding to the strain and burden and not giving the EU so much money. Do you know how we could achieve that? Yep, leaving the EU, ah but that's racist and only thick people would do that... The tone of your posts is rapidly starting to lose you credibility - if you're not going to bother to be pleasant to those who disagree with you and debate in a civil manner, then you can't expect it back, and you won't be getting it back for long. I'm perfectly happy to have a reasonable debate on this, but if you're going to keep throwing unfounded insults and generalisations at those who voted Remain or disagree with you in the slightest, then I'm out. Anyway, there is really only one simple point to make in response - there is no such thing as unlimited immigration, not anywhere, and certainly not in the UK. Your post exemplifies all that is just plain wrong as a matter of fact with the headline Leave argument on immigration - it's based on inaccurate hyperbole. Has it ever occurred to you that the very people you seem so intent on excluding from this country are the people who are the nurses in your hospitals, the care workers in your community, the baristas who make your coffee and the binmen who collect your household waste? They do useful, good jobs that I can't imagine would necessarily all be filled by native Brits, otherwise those who are on benefits but perfectly capable of working would have those jobs already and there wouldn't be any employment for immigrants. To quote a particularly pertinent musical, given this is a theatre forum: "Immigrants, we get the job done." There's a reason that line gets applause and cheers every night - it is because it's true. If you want to make this country unwelcoming to so many who have served it so well, then that's up to you, but not in my name thanks. |
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:52:06 GMT
They are getting on with it, the problem is the dick swinging on both sides. It all comes down to money (It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence as Roger Waters said) and the EU can't afford to jettison trade with us or hinder it and we can't afford not to have a customs union which will give us access to cheap or competitively priced goods. Once the dick swinging stops everything WILL be alright and nothing will change significantly in your life. You spectacularly miss my point. As I said, I worked in the City. I know the jobs that are going to the EU27 NOW because financial institutions don’t know whether passporting will be approved or not. And they can’t wait for the dicks to stop swinging because they can’t change their planning immediately. A friend who runs a consulting business has had to close it down - he worked predominantly with businesses in Benelux, and his regular clients have moved to other providers because he’s been told “this is a multi year project and we don’t know if we can continue to work with you after Brexit”. He has lost most of his clients in the last 18 months. I know people whose lives are being changed significantly NOW. So I’d rather not be patronised by someone who pats me on the arm and says “there, there”. Especially when a friend who is a civil servant at DExEU isn’t saying that to me. There have been some jobs which have been sent to the EU but that is mainly because they are positions which legally need to be in the European Union. As for the rest, there is zero chance that financial institutions will pull out on mass because we leave the EU. Zero chance. Do you know why? Money! Money! Money! Ask Switzerland and Norway how they're doing outside the Union... It WILL be OK. |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:58:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:58:15 GMT
Yep, I'd probably agree, but do you know what would have a good effect on it? Not having unlimited immigration adding to the strain and burden and not giving the EU so much money. Do you know how we could achieve that? Yep, leaving the EU, ah but that's racist and only thick people would do that... The tone of your posts is rapidly starting to lose you credibility - if you're not going to bother to be pleasant to those who disagree with you and debate in a civil manner, then you can't expect it back, and you won't be getting it back for long. I'm perfectly happy to have a reasonable debate on this, but if you're going to keep throwing unfounded insults and generalisations at those who voted Remain or disagree with you in the slightest, then I'm out. Anyway, there is really only one simple point to make in response - there is no such thing as unlimited immigration, not anywhere, and certainly not in the UK. Your post exemplifies all that is just plain wrong as a matter of fact with the headline Leave argument on immigration - it's based on inaccurate hyperbole. Has it ever occurred to you that the very people you seem so intent on excluding from this country are the people who are the nurses in your hospitals, the care workers in your community, the baristas who make your coffee and the binmen who collect your household waste? They do useful, good jobs that I can't imagine would necessarily all be filled by native Brits, otherwise those who are on benefits but perfectly capable of working would have those jobs already and there wouldn't be any employment for immigrants. To quote a particularly pertinent musical, given this is a theatre forum: "Immigrants, we get the job done." There's a reason that line gets applause and cheers every night - it is because it's true. If you want to make this country unwelcoming to so many who have served it so well, then that's up to you, but not in my name thanks. Of course we need immigration. Our birth rate is lowering and we need certain positions filled. However, let me ask you a genuine question: The current UK population is around 60 million. How high, in YOUR opinion, should we let this get before we say no more? 70m? 80m? 100m?? See, there's the problem. We clearly do need a point when we say 'enough is enough' - Anyone who doesn't is deluded - but the problem is that some people's maximum population is higher than others and they will regard you - no matter if you are or not - as racist if you say 'hang on, that's surely enough'... |
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2,761 posts
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Post by n1david on Jul 19, 2018 15:01:40 GMT
You spectacularly miss my point. As I said, I worked in the City. I know the jobs that are going to the EU27 NOW because financial institutions don’t know whether passporting will be approved or not. And they can’t wait for the dicks to stop swinging because they can’t change their planning immediately. A friend who runs a consulting business has had to close it down - he worked predominantly with businesses in Benelux, and his regular clients have moved to other providers because he’s been told “this is a multi year project and we don’t know if we can continue to work with you after Brexit”. He has lost most of his clients in the last 18 months. I know people whose lives are being changed significantly NOW. So I’d rather not be patronised by someone who pats me on the arm and says “there, there”. Especially when a friend who is a civil servant at DExEU isn’t saying that to me. There have been some jobs which have been sent to the EU but that is mainly because they are positions which legally need to be in the European Union. As for the rest, there is zero chance that financial institutions will pull out on mass because we leave the EU. Zero chance. Do you know why? Money! Money! Money! Ask Switzerland and Norway how they're doing outside the Union... It WILL be OK. You’re right. Financial institutions won’t pull out en masse. But they are moving jobs into the EU27 because there are people doing jobs in the UK that they can’t be certain can be legally done here. London will remain an important financial centre. But the European HQ jobs will increasingly go into Europe. This means job losses in the UK. A few at first - but next year, we’re setting up this project, will we run it out of London or Frankfurt? That’ll be Frankfurt. I note you didn’t address my friend’s consultancy business. That’s another 5 jobs gone in the UK because of Brexit. These are small, but they add up, and it’s happening now. I note you didn’t address my question about how everyone can get “the Brexit they voted for” when as you said people voted for “an array of things”. I note that Norway and Switzerland both have a closer relationship with the EU than we will have, given that they have free movement of labour and the UK Government say that’s a red line (well, now they do). In fact, I note that you’ve failed to address any of my concerns with hard facts, instead patting me on the head like a five-year old who has dropped their lolly saying “it will all be ok in the end”. Well, guess what, I’m a grown up and I like evidence. Sadly I’ll have to try to find another Leave supporter who can give me some. Still hunting... over and out from me on this discussion. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 15:06:36 GMT
Our politicians are shooting down the Swiss and Norwegian options, though. We have been offered those, and don't want them, because they're not as good as we have now. But it WILL be OK, you say.... See - hands over ears, LALALALALA..... 'It'll be ok, it'll be fine, someone will work it out!' That's not good enough for businesses. We need to know the detail, we need to know exactly what will be worked out so we can all plan. We need to know what the downsides and risks are so we can put plans into place to mitigate them before they happen. We need to know what the opportunities are, so we can put ourselves in the position to take advantage of them. We need to know what the costs are, so we can budget appropriately. We need to know how much cashflow we need to deal with extra expenses. Most SMEs fail because of a lack of cashflow, not a lack of customers. At the moment we don't even have the basics agreed, let alone the detail. It's mid-2018 already. |
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Post by foxa on Jul 19, 2018 15:08:44 GMT
I've got a TheatreBoard rule - I only read political posts here by people who also post about theatre.
It feels a bit trollish/energy monsterish to sashay up to the TheatreBoard saloon and, on the first posting, to begin challenging folks to gunfights without even offering to buy a round first. There was another gunslinger when Trump was elected who rode into town called us all snowflakes and then headed off to places unknown. It's not worth the energy if there is no theatre context or commitment to the board community.
So let us know about your love of West End musicals or German Expressionist drama or improv comedy or else count me out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 15:09:34 GMT
It's like when people say the Tories will eventually be voted out and Austerity will come to an end. We don't have TIME to blue-sky think like that, people are dying of austerity cuts NOW.
But, y'know, it WILL be OK. Thanks.
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:16:08 GMT
There have been some jobs which have been sent to the EU but that is mainly because they are positions which legally need to be in the European Union. As for the rest, there is zero chance that financial institutions will pull out on mass because we leave the EU. Zero chance. Do you know why? Money! Money! Money! Ask Switzerland and Norway how they're doing outside the Union... It WILL be OK. You’re right. Financial institutions won’t pull out en masse. But they are moving jobs into the EU27 because there are people doing jobs in the UK that they can’t be certain can be legally done here. London will remain an important financial centre. But the European HQ jobs will increasingly go into Europe. This means job losses in the UK. A few at first - but next year, we’re setting up this project, will we run it out of London or Frankfurt? That’ll be Frankfurt. I note you didn’t address my friend’s consultancy business. That’s another 5 jobs gone in the UK because of Brexit. These are small, but they add up, and it’s happening now. I note you didn’t address my question about how everyone can get “the Brexit they voted for” when as you said people voted for “an array of things”. I note that Norway and Switzerland both have a closer relationship with the EU than we will have, given that they have free movement of labour and the UK Government say that’s a red line (well, now they do). In fact, I note that you’ve failed to address any of my concerns with hard facts, instead patting me on the head like a five-year old who has dropped their lolly saying “it will all be ok in the end”. Well, guess what, I’m a grown up and I like evidence. Sadly I’ll have to try to find another Leave supporter who can give me some. Still hunting... over and out from me on this discussion. This will sound harsh, but your friends will cope. They will find work in the Private sector in no time at all if they're any good at what they do. As will anyone whose job is affected post-EU. Not all financial jobs are based around working within the EU. 'The Brexit voted for'. You're right, the Leave campaign was a blank canvas on which everyone could paint their own visions and that is why I voted remain because I thought we were 10 years away from being ready. But the crux of most people's complaints with the EU was membership, immigration, sovereignty and the cost being in the EU and most people will be happy with those latter three things being tackled. Some won't be? Sod them, there were no promises of hard Brexit or soft Brexit, just that we will leave. As I said, we were 10 years too early in leaving. Switzerland has a population of around 8.5 million, Norway has one of around 5.2. Of course they will have to dance to the EU's tune. On the other hand, we ARE far too important to the EU for them to muck us about. Money talks and our population of 60m means we'll have a far better deal than the scaremongers are screaming about. We will emerge with a deal that will change little in the long run and people will look back and feel embarrassed at their over-reaction. |
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951 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:16:24 GMT
Post by vdcni on Jul 19, 2018 15:16:24 GMT
£19,000? Darren Grimes alone has been fined £20,000 and Vote Leave £61,000. Still, that's not the point... You said I was lying.... Care to apologise? Nope - you said this and it is a lie Both got a slap on the hand (with remain's being harder) |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:18:46 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:18:46 GMT
I've got a TheatreBoard rule - I only read political posts here by people who also post about theatre. It feels a bit trollish/energy monsterish to sashay up to the TheatreBoard saloon and, on the first posting, to begin challenging folks to gunfights without even offering to buy a round first. There was another gunslinger when Trump was elected who rode into town called us all snowflakes and then headed off to places unknown. It's not worth the energy if there is no theatre context or commitment to the board community. So let us know about your love of West End musicals or German Expressionist drama or improv comedy or else count me out. Last week I went to see An Ideal Husband, last nigt I went to see The Prime of Miss Brodie and tonight I am seeing a production at The National but I like to remain anonymous so I won't tel you which one! I would love to post on the theatre section but I haven't the confidence to speak about it as I have in other areas. |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:20:05 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:20:05 GMT
Our politicians are shooting down the Swiss and Norwegian options, though. We have been offered those, and don't want them, because they're not as good as we have now. But it WILL be OK, you say.... See - hands over ears, LALALALALA..... 'It'll be ok, it'll be fine, someone will work it out!' That's not good enough for businesses. We need to know the detail, we need to know exactly what will be worked out so we can all plan. We need to know what the downsides and risks are so we can put plans into place to mitigate them before they happen. We need to know what the opportunities are, so we can put ourselves in the position to take advantage of them. We need to know what the costs are, so we can budget appropriately. We need to know how much cashflow we need to deal with extra expenses. Most SMEs fail because of a lack of cashflow, not a lack of customers. At the moment we don't even have the basics agreed, let alone the detail. It's mid-2018 already. Why should we accept deals in place for countries who's combined populations are almost a quarter of ours? |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:21:07 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:21:07 GMT
Still, that's not the point... You said I was lying.... Care to apologise? Nope - you said this and it is a lie Both got a slap on the hand (with remain's being harder) Sorry, that was a typo. My apologies. |
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:22:46 GMT
It's like when people say the Tories will eventually be voted out and Austerity will come to an end. We don't have TIME to blue-sky think like that, people are dying of austerity cuts NOW. But, y'know, it WILL be OK. Thanks. Were you protesting down Whitehall when Labour spent ridiculous sums of money? |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 15:23:54 GMT
Switzerland has a population of around 8.5 million, Norway has one of around 5.2. Of course they will have to dance to the EU's tune. On the other hand, we ARE far too important to the EU for them to muck us about. Money talks and our population of 60m means we'll have a far better deal than the scaremongers are screaming about. This is the fundamental misunderstanding. We are a small country when compared to the EU as a whole. We are accustomed to punching above our weight as an EU member, and that's given people the idea that we're special. We're not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 15:24:34 GMT
Of course we need immigration. Our birth rate is lowering and we need certain positions filled. However, let me ask you a genuine question: The current UK population is around 60 million. How high, in YOUR opinion, should we let this get before we say no more? 70m? 80m? 100m?? See, there's the problem. We clearly do need a point when we say 'enough is enough' - Anyone who doesn't is deluded - but the problem is that some people's maximum population is higher than others and they will regard you - no matter if you are or not - as racist if you say 'hang on, that's surely enough'... I'm not going to opine on figures as I'm not a specialist on population growth etc. I'd rather focus on ensuring that people who want to contribute to the economy in a beneficial way are able to come into this country and are made to feel welcome rather than being given hostile treatment simply because they happen to have been born in a different land. There obviously have to be some limits on immigration, but that is why countries have immigration policies rather than unlimited immigration as you had falsely claimed in your previous post. That is what I had corrected. Simplifying immigration down to citing a simple numerical cap ignores all the complexities of economic contribution and benefit that are an integral part of immigration issues, and so misses the mark - nothing to do with claims of racism (which you appear to be obsessed with seeing as you have mentioned it in almost every post). Not everyone who says immigration should be limited is racist - I don't think anyone would deny that there need to be checks and balances on it - but people who think the solution is to leave the EU in my opinion don't understand that the UK's current immigration policy isn't much different to many countries in the world, and is unlikely to significantly change post-Brexit unless we end up in the "no deal" world that apparently even Leave voters don't really want. Even then, if we have no deal and therefore are reliant only on practically useless WTO rules for trade, I can't see immigration rules changing much, as the UK would be even worse off if it started excluding so many skilled workers. |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:27:23 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:27:23 GMT
Switzerland has a population of around 8.5 million, Norway has one of around 5.2. Of course they will have to dance to the EU's tune. On the other hand, we ARE far too important to the EU for them to muck us about. Money talks and our population of 60m means we'll have a far better deal than the scaremongers are screaming about. This is the fundamental misunderstanding. We are a small country when compared to the EU as a whole. We are accustomed to punching above our weight as an EU member, and that's given people the idea that we're special. We're not. Sorry, that's nonsense. We're one of the richest in there, one of the biggest contributors and one of the biggest inner-Union markets. If you think Berlin and Paris will be thinking 'well, there's only 60m of them but we can still sell and deal with Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Romania!' you are stark raving mad... We don't punch above our weight, we are one of the richest countries in the World. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:28:21 GMT
via mobile
foxa likes this
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 15:28:21 GMT
I would love to post on the theatre section but I haven't the confidence to speak about it as I have in other areas. You should post - not all of us profess to have any kind of specialist theatre knowledge! There are plenty of posts of people simply saying what they think about a production, good or bad, and everyone's entitled to do that! My first post was on the old board, but I'm pretty sure it was something as benign as who my favourite Elphaba in Wicked was at the time! No specialist knowledge or qualifications required to post! |
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:28:45 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:28:45 GMT
Of course we need immigration. Our birth rate is lowering and we need certain positions filled. However, let me ask you a genuine question: The current UK population is around 60 million. How high, in YOUR opinion, should we let this get before we say no more? 70m? 80m? 100m?? See, there's the problem. We clearly do need a point when we say 'enough is enough' - Anyone who doesn't is deluded - but the problem is that some people's maximum population is higher than others and they will regard you - no matter if you are or not - as racist if you say 'hang on, that's surely enough'... I'm not going to opine on figures as I'm not a specialist on population growth etc. I'd rather focus on ensuring that people who want to contribute to the economy in a beneficial way are able to come into this country and are made to feel welcome rather than being given hostile treatment simply because they happen to have been born in a different land. There obviously have to be some limits on immigration, but that is why countries have immigration policies rather than unlimited immigration as you had falsely claimed in your previous post. That is what I had corrected. Simplifying immigration down to citing a simple numerical cap ignores all the complexities of economic contribution and benefit that are an integral part of immigration issues, and so misses the mark - nothing to do with claims of racism (which you appear to be obsessed with seeing as you have mentioned it in almost every post). Not everyone who says immigration should be limited is racist - I don't think anyone would deny that there need to be checks and balances on it - but people who think the solution is to leave the EU in my opinion don't understand that the UK's current immigration policy isn't much different to many countries in the world, and is unlikely to significantly change post-Brexit unless we end up in the "no deal" world that apparently even Leave voters don't really want. Even then, if we have no deal and therefore are reliant only on practically useless WTO rules for trade, I can't see immigration rules changing much, as the UK would be even worse off if it started excluding so many skilled workers. Post Brexit skilled workers should be welcomed with open arms as they should be now. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 15:31:15 GMT
Our politicians are shooting down the Swiss and Norwegian options, though. We have been offered those, and don't want them, because they're not as good as we have now. But it WILL be OK, you say.... See - hands over ears, LALALALALA..... 'It'll be ok, it'll be fine, someone will work it out!' That's not good enough for businesses. We need to know the detail, we need to know exactly what will be worked out so we can all plan. We need to know what the downsides and risks are so we can put plans into place to mitigate them before they happen. We need to know what the opportunities are, so we can put ourselves in the position to take advantage of them. We need to know what the costs are, so we can budget appropriately. We need to know how much cashflow we need to deal with extra expenses. Most SMEs fail because of a lack of cashflow, not a lack of customers. At the moment we don't even have the basics agreed, let alone the detail. It's mid-2018 already. Why should we accept deals in place for countries who's combined populations are almost a quarter of ours? Because we're negotiating with 27 other nations who are in agreement that they won't undermine their union with each other, and we are just 1 nation leaving that union. Because we've put ourselves in the incredibly stupid position of automatically defaulting to an even-worse position if we don't agree to the more beneficial terms they are willing to offer us. Because our politicians are too incompetent to negotiate something better. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 15:34:13 GMT
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. We are a small country when compared to the EU as a whole. We are accustomed to punching above our weight as an EU member, and that's given people the idea that we're special. We're not. Sorry, that's nonsense. We're one of the richest in there, one of the biggest contributors and one of the biggest inner-Union markets. If you think Berlin and Paris will be thinking 'well, there's only 60m of them but we can still sell and deal with Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Romania!' you are stark raving mad... We don't punch above our weight, we are one of the richest countries in the World. Oh look, the referendum rhetoric that has already been disproved during the negotiation period. Cakes and unicorns. I'm done talking to you. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 15:36:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:36:57 GMT
Why should we accept deals in place for countries who's combined populations are almost a quarter of ours? Because we're negotiating with 27 other nations who are in agreement that they won't undermine their union with each other, and we are just 1 nation leaving that union. Because we've put ourselves in the incredibly stupid position of automatically defaulting to an even-worse position if we don't agree to the more beneficial terms they are willing to offer us. Because our politicians are too incompetent to negotiate something better. The theory says we're striking a deal with 27 nations but the reality is that we're striking a deal with France and Germany and they won't muck us about because they want and need to trade with us as effectively as possible. Do you not realise how poor the rest of the EU is outside of France, Germany and the UK? It will be suicide if they play hard with us. Stop putting us down. |
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 15:41:42 GMT
Sorry, that's nonsense. We're one of the richest in there, one of the biggest contributors and one of the biggest inner-Union markets. If you think Berlin and Paris will be thinking 'well, there's only 60m of them but we can still sell and deal with Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Romania!' you are stark raving mad... We don't punch above our weight, we are one of the richest countries in the World. Oh look, the referendum rhetoric that has already been disproved during the negotiation period. Cakes and unicorns. I'm done talking to you. Ha ha, do you want to tell me how great the economies of Ireland, Romania, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Poland and a whole array of other nations are??? I can see the Germans really looking forward to replacing our trade with those countries! Sorry for being so blunt, but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. We're one of the richest countries in the World, one of the most important markets to Germany and France and you think they'll be happy to see us leave... My God, I know it's a bit of a clichéd thing to say amongst some Leave circles, but on behalf of my family who survived two World Wars, thank you for not being alive during them. |
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Post by n1david on Jul 19, 2018 16:06:19 GMT
As a purely technical point, anyone who is alive today by definition comes from a family that survived two world wars.
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