5,062 posts
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Brexit
Jul 18, 2018 21:47:22 GMT
Post by Phantom of London on Jul 18, 2018 21:47:22 GMT
If there was another referendum tomorrow, the result would be different - more people would vote to leave.
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5,707 posts
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Brexit
Jul 18, 2018 21:56:26 GMT
Post by lynette on Jul 18, 2018 21:56:26 GMT
If there was another referendum tomorrow, the result would be different - more people would vote to leave. Interesting but as I said, no one can know whereas in a General Election there is some room for manoeuvre with pressure from elected MPs whereas the Ref can mean an MP has opinion opposed to his constituents. Of course some constituents always are of a different opinion to their MP but the tradition is that the MP represents all and has to work round that. Actually I agree with you but would I bet on it? |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 18, 2018 21:57:48 GMT
One example, true, but everything else... everything works out one way or another in the end, it really does. Except for the people who it didn’t work out for in the end. Of course, they’re not here to tell the tale. Leading a country well is about making the best possible cchoicea for the most people you can. If you can predict that many will actually be much worse off - even if they survive in the end - it’s not a good outcome. |
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Brexit
Jul 18, 2018 22:21:28 GMT
Post by david on Jul 18, 2018 22:21:28 GMT
Just out of interest as a hypothetical situation, if the PM announced that a second referendum would be held and given whats happened since the original result, would you change how you originally voted?
I voted remain originally and wouldn’t change on a second vote.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 23:32:39 GMT
Just out of interest as a hypothetical situation, if the PM announced that a second referendum would be held and given whats happened since the original result, would you change how you originally voted? I voted remain originally and wouldn’t change on a second vote. No, I wouldn't change how I voted - Remain first time, Remain again. I'm also not convinced there would be a stronger Leave vote second time around - not sure how anyone could bring themselves to vote for the right royal mess that leaving has so far created! So I can only see a stronger Leave vote if someone actually comes up with a viable Leave plan. They've already had one shot at doing that prior to a referendum and failed to set out anything remotely workable or concrete In fact, I'd probably devote a significant amount of time to campaigning and trying to educate people about how non-existent the leave campaign's plans are for when the EU inevitably says "you can have your cake or eat it, not both - didn't you realise you can't have the best of both worlds?" |
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Post by d'James on Jul 19, 2018 5:58:29 GMT
If there was another referendum, some public figures would argue that people should vote leave to ‘respect democracy.’ As it it would/should be a different question to last time, I hope people would see through that argument, but with the press the way they are, I’m not so sure.
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4,156 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 10:17:49 GMT
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 10:17:49 GMT
I have no faith at all that leave voters would change their minds - they were putting their hands over their ears and singing ‘lalalalala!’ When people tried to point out the reality to them before the last referendum, and they’ll continue to do that until the actual reality of having left and being worse off slaps them in the face.
I expect we will re-join the EU - on far worse terms and with far less influence - in my lifetime, but it’ll probably take a decade post-Brexit for all of the consequences to be fully realised. Anything as big as a global economy moves slowly to start with, and then picks up momentum.
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 10:32:46 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 10:32:46 GMT
If there was another referendum tomorrow, the result would be different - more people would vote to leave. Totally agree. I voted remain but would vote to leave next time because: * It's a democracy and the referendum was a 'one time' opportunity for the nation to vote. We did and leave won. * The sheer arrogance of the rightfully labelled 'remonaners' who have simply given up any logical arguments and have resorted to desperately throwing around accusations that all Leave voters are either thick or racist. Reading through this thread is amusing, scary and sad at the same time. There are a few exceptions to the rule but most on here are arrogant, condescending and completely out-of-touch with the lives of millions of people who voted leave. |
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Post by foxa on Jul 19, 2018 10:40:55 GMT
Hi etskypehome
Welcome to the TheatreBoard. Slightly rogue for your first posting on a theatre board to be about Brexit and then to complain that we are arrogant, etc. I don't agree with everything here (how could I, unless I had multiple personalities) but I think this has been a fairly civilised and nuanced discussion. I don't pop onto this thread much because I really come to this forum for the theatre, but I'm impressed people aren't insulting each other.
But howdy anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 10:48:10 GMT
The sheer arrogance of the rightfully labelled 'remonaners' who have simply given up any logical arguments and have resorted to desperately throwing around accusations that all Leave voters are either thick or racist. Reading through this thread is amusing, scary and sad at the same time. There are a few exceptions to the rule but most on here are arrogant, condescending and completely out-of-touch with the lives of millions of people who voted leave. It's interesting how different people see things from different perspectives, because every accusation you've thrown at "remoaners" (and the fact that you've had to resort to an insult in doing so rather reduces the impact of said accusations) I could say exactly the same about the fervent Leave supporters - the extremes of both sides are equally culpable. I find many of the arguments made in support of leaving the EU by "hard" Brexiteers arrogant, condescending and completely out of touch with reality. They seem to have forgotten that over 48% of voters wanted to stay in the EU, which is an extremely sizeable minority that hasn't disappeared overnight, and they are out of touch with the lives of the millions of people who voted to keep the benefits of staying in the EU. I have yet to see any logical argument whatsoever that leaving the EU will benefit the UK or anyone in it - if you have one, then by all means explain it as I am genuinely interested to understand what the supposed benefits are and how that can be achieved in a Brexit deal that is actual plausible and workable and will be accepted by the EU. Especially on the Irish border question, which is very close to my heart. If you can do that, then you're better than any politician in these negotiations thus far. However,you need to stop generalising as that doesn't help your cause at all. No-one has said that all Leave supporters are racist - it's patently obvious that SOME unfortunately are, but certainly not all or even the majority. Similarly, many Leave supporters are undoubtedly intelligent, but what they have not done despite having over 2 years to think about it is come up with a credible and workable Brexit plan, or a contingency plan if no deal is done. If they can't do that, then how are those of us who disagree with Brexit ever supposed to believe that this will be anything other than an economic and social disaster? The only accusation, if you want to call it that, that I will throw at Leave supporters generally is that they have not come up with a credible plan for how Brexit will work that will not cause more damage to the UK than staying in the EU. I haven't seen one, so I stand by that allegation. I would be happy to be proved wrong if such a plan is possible, but I doubt it is. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 10:50:31 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 10:50:31 GMT
Hi etskypehome Welcome to the TheatreBoard. Slightly rogue for your first posting on a theatre board to be about Brexit and then to complain that we are arrogant, etc. I don't agree with everything here (how could I, unless I had multiple personalities) but I think this has been a fairly civilised and nuanced discussion. I don't pop onto this thread much because I really come to this forum for the theatre, but I'm impressed people aren't insulting each other. But howdy anyway. Hi, I am a 'board-stalker' who won't post much to be honest... I didn't say everyone is arrogant but there is a clear echo chamber developing on here. People who voted leave have a whole array of reasons for doing so and most were not racist or thick. |
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1,503 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 10:59:20 GMT
Post by foxa on Jul 19, 2018 10:59:20 GMT
Hi Etskypehome
I think there are a lot of opinions on here. One of my favourite posters on here is a Leave person and I am very Remain. I'm interested in understanding his opinions and I think the conversation is respectful. One of the most commonly expressed opinions is that the referendum itself and both campaigns were flawed, which isn't a judgement on the voters of either side.
But don't stalk - post on one of the theatre topics as well. What sort of theatre do you like?
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 12:00:39 GMT
sf likes this
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 12:00:39 GMT
If there was another referendum tomorrow, the result would be different - more people would vote to leave. Totally agree. I voted remain but would vote to leave next time because: * It's a democracy and the referendum was a 'one time' opportunity for the nation to vote. We did and leave won. * The sheer arrogance of the rightfully labelled 'remonaners' who have simply given up any logical arguments and have resorted to desperately throwing around accusations that all Leave voters are either thick or racist. Reading through this thread is amusing, scary and sad at the same time. There are a few exceptions to the rule but most on here are arrogant, condescending and completely out-of-touch with the lives of millions of people who voted leave. Myself, northern working class background, family members who voted leave (not all), live in leaver country, job at risk through Brexit (already confirmed via a shocking shift in numbers), wasn’t able to vote myself (long story). You identify the main problem with the referendum, the belief that something can be ‘settled’ once and for all, which is why it is so contentious. For me, nothing should ever be ‘settled’ because when you leave people without a say on what is happening then first you get resentment, then anger aimed generally, then more direct action. There has to be a compromise with leavers losing the same as remainers otherwise the rest of my life will be a country at war with itself (and potentially that could be literal as well as figurative). If the vote had been another week or month or year then the other side would have won and they would have to face the same, the need to compromise. Anyone who wants a hard Brexit at this point in time must be stopped for the good of the country and to safeguard our future. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 12:32:05 GMT
Post by vdcni on Jul 19, 2018 12:32:05 GMT
And of course since the referendum in the 1970's it has been a compromise. With some wanting closer integration and some wanting to leave we've generally steered a middle course in our membership, not going all the way on boarders and currency among other things.
Then with a 52/48 victory suddenly it's hard Brexit and no other choice. All the extreme Brextit politicians lying that that is what they always said and that people knew that was exactly what they were voting for despite plenty of evidence of them saying very different things during the campaign.
Yet in all that they don't have any idea how to actually deliver it other than crashing out with no deal and no idea what our future trading relationships are going to look like. And yes as mentioned no articulate rationale of how we are going to benefit from Brexit anyway.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Jul 19, 2018 13:06:39 GMT
Just out of interest as a hypothetical situation, if the PM announced that a second referendum would be held and given whats happened since the original result, would you change how you originally voted? I voted remain originally and wouldn’t change on a second vote. |
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Post by kathryn on Jul 19, 2018 13:18:32 GMT
It'll work out because of everybody except politicians, basically, because us in the West like our standard of living and will do what needs to be done to preserve it. I find it very hard to be complacent about that. As far as I can see, every practical solution that has been suggested has been shot down for failing to be ideologically pure enough. Brexit has become an article of faith - something that we must uphold to the fullest, 'hardest' extent because democracy - despite all the electoral laws the leave campaigns breached. Despite the very strong suspicion that the democratic process was manipulated by outside forces with vested interests. Despite the fact that the resulting legislation that has already passed vastly undermines the way that parliamentary democracy has always operated in this country - giving the executive arm unprecedented power to pass legislation without scrutiny and removing the parliamentary check on executive power. The UK has made itself less democratic as a result of the Brexit vote, which we are being told we must uphold because democracy. You know what else, though? It's not enough to preserve our standard of living right now, because it's actually historically very poor at the moment, post-financial crisis and post-austerity measures. The poorest people in this country have gotten much poorer since 2008. Public services are in an absolute state - including the civil service, which has had massive cuts to its staffing. I'm afraid the people who you imagine are working quietly behind the scenes to sort everything out have probably been made redundant. Witness the absolute car crash which is the implementation of Universal Credit. The rest of Europe is placing itself in position to ride an economic recovery wave and there is a very real risk that we will be left behind because of Brexit, with our standard of living worsening instead of improving, falling far behind our European neighbours. I want better for my country. I want a better standard of living. I have lost all faith in the ability of our politicians to achieve that. I could live with the Brexit vote if we had a competent government who were at least capable of implementing it smoothly, but this lot are just appalling. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 13:53:27 GMT
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 13:53:27 GMT
It'll work out because of everybody except politicians, basically, because us in the West like our standard of living and will do what needs to be done to preserve it. I find it very hard to be complacent about that. As far as I can see, every practical solution that has been suggested has been shot down for failing to be ideologically pure enough. Brexit has become an article of faith - something that we must uphold to the fullest, 'hardest' extent because democracy - despite all the electoral laws the leave campaigns breached. Despite the very strong suspicion that the democratic process was manipulated by outside forces with vested interests. Despite the fact that the resulting legislation that has already passed vastly undermines the way that parliamentary democracy has always operated in this country - giving the executive arm unprecedented power to pass legislation without scrutiny and removing the parliamentary check on executive power. The UK has made itself less democratic as a result of the Brexit vote, which we are being told we must uphold because democracy. You know what else, though? It's not enough to preserve our standard of living right now, because it's actually historically very poor at the moment, post-financial crisis and post-austerity measures. The poorest people in this country have gotten much poorer since 2008. Public services are in an absolute state - including the civil service, which has had massive cuts to its staffing. I'm afraid the people who you imagine are working quietly behind the scenes to sort everything out have probably been made redundant. Witness the absolute car crash which is the implementation of Universal Credit. The rest of Europe is placing itself in position to ride an economic recovery wave and there is a very real risk that we will be left behind because of Brexit, with our standard of living worsening instead of improving, falling far behind our European neighbours. I want better for my country. I want a better standard of living. I have lost all faith in the ability of our politicians to achieve that. I could live with the Brexit vote if we had a competent government who were at least capable of implementing it smoothly, but this lot are just appalling. Where to begin... Both sides have been found guilty of breaking electoral laws. Both got a slap on the hand (with remain's being harder) but there wasn't any suggestion that the leave's breaking the rules led to the outcome of the Referendum and only in some Left wing publications are suggestions that it did, or that we'll have another referendum as a consequence, are being taken seriously. Those pesky Russians...? Clutching at straws comes to mind every time I hear that nonsense. If you actually spoke to a diverse range of people prior to the referendum you would have quickly ascertained that there was passionate support for leave. If you only speak to middle-class, left-leaning liberals who think drinking Fairtrade coffee is a statement against globalisation and Capitalism of course this may come as a surprise. And no, it wasn't because they were told to vote leave by The Sun, had a pure hatred of foreigners or wanted no bendy bananas but blue passport covers, it was for an array of things ranging from wanting to curtail immigration levels, wanting to have unqualified sovereignty for Britain and some just weighed up the costs of our EU status against the benefits and thought the scales didn't tip in our favour. A whole array of reasons. And our standard of living? It's actually very good, thank you. Sure some people need a helping hand but most people are more than just 'getting by'. Do you know what would help those who need a helping hand? Not having unlimited immigration which drives down the wages. Maybe if we left the EU though.... ah, I see... wanting to drive up the wages of the working class through such a method is racist, isn't it? Why do you think the Trade Unions - those evil, bastions of Capitalism! - have wanted us out of the EU since we got in? Do you know what else would help those in absolute dire needs? Ensuring that only those who need help actually receive it and we don't develop a society of ponces waiting for hand outs when they are more than capable of working... That Universal Credits doesn't half sound like that, doesn't it... Public services are in a mess? Yep, I'd probably agree, but do you know what would have a good effect on it? Not having unlimited immigration adding to the strain and burden and not giving the EU so much money. Do you know how we could achieve that? Yep, leaving the EU, ah but that's racist and only thick people would do that... As for the rest of Europe? Are you mad??? Apart from Germany there are strong movements all across the continent demanding referendums to leave the EU and we're the first domino. There is no 'waiting on the crest of a financial wave' for Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal or most countries in the EU and when Germany/France keep having to bail them out the movements to leave the EU within those countries will bring down their Governments and the EU. The EU will NOT exist 20-30 years. I voted remain - not because I wanted us to be a member of the EU but I thought we were beset served by having a proper plan in place before we did and that would take 10 years - but we're coming out now. And do you know what will make it a success? Money! Money! Money! Do you really think Germany want to lose one of their biggest markets or hinder trade between us? Do France? Can countries like Spain and Portugal afford not to? The way some people go on we're a small country with a population of about 5 million! We will have a Customs Union, we will have stricter controls of our borders, we will have unchecked sovereignty in our legal system and as Bob Marley said, 'Everything is going to be alright'! And yes, I am a Tory voter! We exist in the theatre community too, you know! |
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Post by foxa on Jul 19, 2018 14:10:29 GMT
:-) So what kind of theatre do you like?
Would love to see some of this passion directed at a performance....
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951 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:13:45 GMT
Post by vdcni on Jul 19, 2018 14:13:45 GMT
Both sides have been found guilty of breaking electoral laws. Both got a slap on the hand (with remain's being harder) but there wasn't any suggestion that the leave's breaking the rules led to the outcome of the Referendum and only in some Left wing publications are suggestions that it did, or that we'll have another referendum as a consequence, are being taken seriously. I was going to read your post but when you started with a blatant lie I couldn't be bothered to go any further. |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:19:32 GMT
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:19:32 GMT
Both sides have been found guilty of breaking electoral laws. Both got a slap on the hand (with remain's being harder) but there wasn't any suggestion that the leave's breaking the rules led to the outcome of the Referendum and only in some Left wing publications are suggestions that it did, or that we'll have another referendum as a consequence, are being taken seriously. I was going to read your post but when you started with a blatant lie I couldn't be bothered to go any further. So, do you want to apologise? |
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951 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:21:00 GMT
Post by vdcni on Jul 19, 2018 14:21:00 GMT
Are you trying to get me a subscription to the FT?
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2,761 posts
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Post by n1david on Jul 19, 2018 14:21:03 GMT
I hesitate to re-enter this discussion because it’s getting more heated but I wanted to make a couple of points. etskypehome has mentioned a couple of times that Lesvers voted for Leave because of “an array of things” or “a whole array of reasons”. That’s part of the problem. I accept I live in something of an echo chamber (live in Islington, worked in the City) so didn’t know many Leave voters. One close friend who did vote Leave though, I asked about the Irish border question, particularly because he was Irish. He eventually revealed to me that he was a Leave voter who voted Leave because he thought it was the fastest way to a United Ireland. But the DUP supported Brexit because it was most likely to bring about a hard border in Ireland. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. Some Brexit campaigners campaigned explicitly saying “we’ll stay in the single market” (I’m looking at you, Mr Johnson). Some campaigned saying that WTO rules are the only way forward. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. In retrospect, a better referendum question would have been something along the lines of “Do you agree that the UK Government should negotiate with the EU a new relationship agreement which includes the UK leaving the EU?” That would have given the government the ability to negotiate without time pressure and enabled a fully thought-through deal to be presented to the UK public and the EU27 and agreed in a more controlled way. That might have encouraged those of us who are not great fans of the EU to consider what the alternative would be. Right now even the UK Government doesn’t have consensus on what our new trading arrangements will be. Mr Johnson’s speech yesterday said essentially “we’ll work it out because we’re clever” Well, I’d like a few more facts, agreements and concrete proposals rather than people just telling me it’ll be all right. Because as we know in this world, and in our personal lives, despite what we are sometimes told, sometimes it doesn’t turn out to be alright. I want Brexit to be a success given that’s where we’re going. And so, can the clever people charged with coming up with a workable proposal please get on with it? |
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:23:20 GMT
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Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:23:20 GMT
Are you trying to get me a subscription to the FT? The headline should suffice to show that you were wrong to accuse me of lying... So, will I get that apology? |
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951 posts
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Post by vdcni on Jul 19, 2018 14:27:11 GMT
£19,000?
Darren Grimes alone has been fined £20,000 and Vote Leave £61,000.
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23 posts
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Brexit
Jul 19, 2018 14:29:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by etskypehome on Jul 19, 2018 14:29:43 GMT
I hesitate to re-enter this discussion because it’s getting more heated but I wanted to make a couple of points. etskypehome has mentioned a couple of times that Lesvers voted for Leave because of “an array of things” or “a whole array of reasons”. That’s part of the problem. I accept I live in something of an echo chamber (live in Islington, worked in the City) so didn’t know many Leave voters. One close friend who did vote Leave though, I asked about the Irish border question, particularly because he was Irish. He eventually revealed to me that he was a Leave voter who voted Leave because he thought it was the fastest way to a United Ireland. But the DUP supported Brexit because it was most likely to bring about a hard border in Ireland. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. Some Brexit campaigners campaigned explicitly saying “we’ll stay in the single market” (I’m looking at you, Mr Johnson). Some campaigned saying that WTO rules are the only way forward. They can’t both get “the Brexit they voted for”. In retrospect, a better referendum question would have been something along the lines of “Do you agree that the UK Government should negotiate with the EU a new relationship agreement which includes the UK leaving the EU?” That would have given the government the ability to negotiate without time pressure and enabled a fully thought-through deal to be presented to the UK public and the EU27 and agreed in a more controlled way. That might have encouraged those of us who are not great fans of the EU to consider what the alternative would be. Right now even the UK Government doesn’t have consensus on what our new trading arrangements will be. Mr Johnson’s speech yesterday said essentially “we’ll work it out because we’re clever” Well, I’d like a few more facts, agreements and concrete proposals rather than people just telling me it’ll be all right. Because as we know in this world, and in our personal lives, despite what we are sometimes told, it doesn’t turn out to be alright. I want Brexit to be a success given that’s where we’re going. And so, can the clever people charged with coming up with a workable proposal please get on with it? They are getting on with it, the problem is the dick swinging on both sides. It all comes down to money (It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence as Roger Waters said) and the EU can't afford to jettison trade with us or hinder it and we can't afford not to have a customs union which will give us access to cheap or competitively priced goods. Once the dick swinging stops everything WILL be alright and nothing will change significantly in your life. |
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