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Post by Jan on Nov 6, 2023 14:36:55 GMT
This all has to stop. These criminals need to be jailed for long enough to make it clear that criminal damage is not legitimate protest. And those organising it need to serve time for conspiracy It is a millenarian cult, they genuinely believe billions of people will die and the world will end if they don’t get their way. Given that, their actions are entirely legitimate from their perspective. They probably need treatment rather than jail, but jail will do for the moment. I see they have also turned up at the Cenotaph. Obviously concerned they’re been kept off the front pages by even higher status protests. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 22:03:09 GMT
They better stay away on Sunday although a few of them could probably do with hearing about what a real fight for freedom was from a few of the WW2 veterans.
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 9, 2023 20:34:39 GMT
This all has to stop. These criminals need to be jailed for long enough to make it clear that criminal damage is not legitimate protest. And those organising it need to serve time for conspiracy Tell that to the suffragettes! |
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 9, 2023 20:36:53 GMT
This all has to stop. These criminals need to be jailed for long enough to make it clear that criminal damage is not legitimate protest. And those organising it need to serve time for conspiracy It is a millenarian cult, they genuinely believe billions of people will die and the world will end if they don’t get their way. Given that, their actions are entirely legitimate from their perspective. They probably need treatment rather than jail, but jail will do for the moment. I see they have also turned up at the Cenotaph. Obviously concerned they’re been kept off the front pages by even higher status protests. This is fake news. Refuted by the Met police who stated they were NOT protesting at the Cenotaph, but had been moved there by police themselves to be safe and be arrested. Be very careful what you believe these days. |
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Post by Latecomer on Nov 9, 2023 20:40:48 GMT
Personally I’d rather they kept the jail space for the rapists and people causing more harm, rather than Just Stop Oil protestors, who at least have good motivation, even if you don’t agree with their methods…..can’t help thinking jailing some of our politicians would also be better use of the space! “Which ones?” I hear you cry….there’s a few to choose from, I’ll allow you that.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 9, 2023 21:00:15 GMT
This all has to stop. These criminals need to be jailed for long enough to make it clear that criminal damage is not legitimate protest. And those organising it need to serve time for conspiracy Tell that to the suffragettes! They are not even close to being worthy of being included in the same breath as the Suffrage movement |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2023 21:09:48 GMT
The suffragettes were fighting for a cause similar to none whites in Apartheid era South Africa.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 6:25:22 GMT
Personally I’d rather they kept the jail space for the rapists and people causing more harm, rather than Just Stop Oil protestors, who at least have good motivation, even if you don’t agree with their methods…..can’t help thinking jailing some of our politicians would also be better use of the space! “Which ones?” I hear you cry….there’s a few to choose from, I’ll allow you that. 100% disagree! The law should always be black and white, if someone commits criminal damage then they should be prosecuted following the letter of the law, and if that means jail time, then so be it. 'Good motivation' shouldn't come into it, and there is no way to measure 'more harm', what you consider as levels of harm can be very different to someone else's. |
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Post by Jan on Nov 10, 2023 7:15:19 GMT
I stand by my statements. Probably one of the reasons we have cut emissions is that we have outsourced most of our production of “things” to China! Read what I said. Our emissions have fallen substantially on a consumption basis which includes exactly that outsourcing. On this basis emissions are down 21% since 1996. The data is readily available, you have no need to speculate. UK leads the developed world on that basis too. You can see the data here: ourworldindata.org/co2/country/united-kingdom?country=~GBR |
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Post by Mr Crummles on Nov 10, 2023 11:28:36 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation.
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Post by toomasj on Nov 10, 2023 11:38:11 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. Come to think of it, why did Marius open that grotty inn anyway? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 11:55:43 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. I think some of your comparisons are a bit of a stretch. You can't really compare protecting Jews or Abortion to the acts of JSO. Yes the morals should be considered when it comes to legislation and law, and I have no issues with a slow march, it's inconvenient and helps highlight a point. However, when they start throwing paint all over university buildings in Manchester - that's criminal damage, when they smash glass frame of a painting in a gallery - that's criminal damage, throwing paint over a dinosaur in a museum - again criminal damage, the list goes on to include throwing paint over digital screens at a game expo and landmarks. A persons morals should not be an excuse to get away with causing criminal damage. They are unhappy with government policy, but why should Manchester University and its students suffer? Why should a museum and its guests suffer? why should people at a gaming expo suffer? This is why I don't have any sympathy for any of JSO and more than happy that the book is thrown at them, a minor inconvenience can be forgiven, but criminal damage should not, as that hits the general public in the pocket and they shouldn't be hurt because of someones values and beliefs. Also, I think Javert will not be happy that you are accusing him of stealing bread! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2023 12:58:58 GMT
Protesting by marching or taking the knee like the BLM movement did is different to causing criminal damage. I'll exclude the topling of statues as that is a different matter.
You break the law by dropping litter, even the old recording the charts off the radio but there are different levels of law breaking and how they are interpreted by just the MPs is always very merky. They have to resign as a minister but can stay on as an MP always seems dodgy to me.
Sitting in the road actually probably ****** off more people than chaining themselves to the wheel of a 747!
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Post by oxfordsimon on Nov 10, 2023 13:15:29 GMT
Criminal damage has been illegal for a very, very long time in this and every other legal jurisdiction that I can think of. It isn't a capricious new law. It is a long established part of civic society.
And the idea that the slow walking has no consequences other than inconvenience is demonstrably untrue. We saw that the other day when these criminals held up an ambulance en route to an emergency.
Did they break their slow walk to allow it to pass? No.
That shows them for who they are.
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Post by Mr Crummles on Nov 10, 2023 13:36:33 GMT
I do wonder whether these demonstrations really help. But, on the other hand, I do question the concept of criminality, and I don’t think that unlawful acts are necessarily wrong. In Nazi Germany, helping Jews was considered criminal. Seeking abortion in many places in America is criminal, as was homosexuality in the UK until very recently. Was Javert wrong for stealing a loaf of bread? At the end of the day, we should be guided by moral principles, rather than by laws. Laws are created by fallible humans, many of whom with shady interests. Think of all the lawmakers who pander to far-right people for money and power. Also consider the many things that are not illegal but cause much harm to people. The fact is that much good has come to humanity by breaking laws. Important revolutions and changes started that way. I’m not saying that we should all break them or that the ends justify the means. What I’m saying is that laws are not absolutes, and that things should be considered within context. I think it is valid to oppose the JSO for their tactics, believing that they generate more harm than good, especially to the important cause they try to defend, but I don’t think it is right and fair to crush them for what is essentially some very minor infringements of current legislation. I think some of your comparisons are a bit of a stretch. You can't really compare protecting Jews or Abortion to the acts of JSO. Yes the morals should be considered when it comes to legislation and law, and I have no issues with a slow march, it's inconvenient and helps highlight a point. However, when they start throwing paint all over university buildings in Manchester - that's criminal damage, when they smash glass frame of a painting in a gallery - that's criminal damage, throwing paint over a dinosaur in a museum - again criminal damage, the list goes on to include throwing paint over digital screens at a game expo and landmarks. A persons morals should not be an excuse to get away with causing criminal damage. They are unhappy with government policy, but why should Manchester University and its students suffer? Why should a museum and its guests suffer? why should people at a gaming expo suffer? This is why I don't have any sympathy for any of JSO and more than happy that the book is thrown at them, a minor inconvenience can be forgiven, but criminal damage should not, as that hits the general public in the pocket and they shouldn't be hurt because of someones values and beliefs. Also, I think Javert will not be happy that you are accusing him of stealing bread! |
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Post by Mr Crummles on Nov 10, 2023 13:43:26 GMT
Apologies to Javert! Valjean, it's you I'm looking at.
I understand your point, Jon. I was myself a bit taken aback when they threw soup at a painting. What I was trying to say, however, is that the illegality of an act is not the ultimate factor to determine whether this act is good or bad...
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Post by Nelly on Apr 19, 2024 13:33:27 GMT
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Post by anthony40 on Apr 19, 2024 14:25:05 GMT
Just a little aside- I can't help thinking the photograph in that article looks like something straight from The Breakfast Club! |
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Post by BVM on Apr 20, 2024 8:48:33 GMT
The right decision that they were found guilty no doubt
(But I still think there is something in starting a protest at the "will you join in our crusade" moment in Les Mis).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2024 10:32:53 GMT
100% the right verdict, let's hope they are sufficiently sentenced. |
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Post by aspieandy on Apr 20, 2024 11:42:04 GMT
The allusion/delusion is clear enough: Can You Hear the People Sing, putting up barricades, etc. Disconnection with their cause insomuch as 95% of the audience would have come by public transport and paid decent money to get there, as they would have. Pretty much identical to the disruption of Waterloo Bridge for months - disrupting mostly buses. So excellent at promo in media, yet zero effect in any wider sense. No change in discourse. It's almost as if the strategies are alienating.
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Post by mkb on Apr 24, 2024 16:32:48 GMT
I am disappointed to read that the theatre did not apparently seek damages for their costs as it was covered by insurance. That just increases insurance premiums for the industry which ultimately is passed on to us in higher ticket prices.
I can't understand why the party insured isn't required to minimise their insurance claim by seeking to recover costs from those protestors found guilty, nor why the insurance company itself is not doing so.
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Post by TallPaul on Apr 24, 2024 17:00:46 GMT
Thanks to the protestors who interrupted play last year, everyone attending the World Snooker Championship is now frisked on entry. This is done outdoors, in all weathers, which so far this year has been very cold and sometimes wet.
Having entered not guilty pleas, the protestors themselves are not due to stand trial until next month. Goodness knows what their defence is going to be? It's not as though there weren't any witnesses.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2024 19:03:22 GMT
Thanks to the protestors who interrupted play last year, everyone attending the World Snooker Championship is now frisked on entry. This is done outdoors, in all weathers, which so far this year has been very cold and sometimes wet. Having entered not guilty pleas, the protestors themselves are not due to stand trial until next month. Goodness knows what their defence is going to be? It's not as though there weren't any witnesses. People caught holding a murder weapon have pleaded not guilty so I guess these JSO mob probably think they won't get a harsher sentence for not having pleaded guilty. I just think a short sharp shock of a spell inside would deter some of these goons. |
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Post by Latecomer on Apr 26, 2024 18:58:06 GMT
Just posting support for the protesters here. They are trying to save the world. Whatever you think, they aren’t doing this for personal gain and I’m constantly amazed at how little empathy people have for these protests. It’s hard to protest effectively when it affects no-one as it gets NO publicity and people do feel quite powerless these days.
I know, I know, it’s annoying and inconvenient and not necessarily effective. They probably said the same about the suffragettes (who smashed windows and broke laws in their campaign)
Ok, I’ll go now.
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