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Post by chris on Oct 27, 2024 7:07:48 GMT
Its funny you say that - in Act Two right after "I know that we can" I was waiting for "I don't think you should shoot before July 15" But to be honest, I really don't miss The Ladys Paying/Eternal Youth - and find the new changes there very haunting and dark It’s not the missing songs so much, as they were never my favourites; it’s the lines they’ve changed or omitted or songs truncated (like Surrender) or outright butchered (Too Much In Love). And why erase all the mentions of Norma’s contemporaries - Clara Bow, Douglas Fairbanks etc - if they’re going to retain the story about Rudy Valentino? It doesn’t make much sense. I’m not nuts about the girl playing Betty but all the other voices are amazing, so minor niggles aside it’s a great recording. I agree with newyorkcityboy in many respects. I think this is probably, on balance, the best recording of the show. Thr LuPone version is pre the US revisions and there are some odd cuts. Glenn Close gives the best performance of Norma on stage I’ve seen, I didn’t see the Lloyd version, and whilst I have found myself listening to the LA cast more since I saw Close, her voice isn’t really a pleasant listen. The Canadian cast has been my “go to” recording. The orchestra is clearly the strength of this version, it sounds great. Nicole seems to truly live the role of Norma and totally inhabit her. I thought her big numbers were thrilling. I didn’t miss the two cut songs and I’d imagine the stage show possibly moves along without them better. I found a couple of the lyric changes odd, for example why did Blind Windows become Dark Windows? Removing most of the references to Norma’s contemporaries yet leaving in the references to Valentino seemed odd. Removing references to slaves seemed like some form of unnecessary political correctness. I sensed there was an attempt to change Betty and make her a bit of a stronger character. I wasn’t always keen on the lyric changes to Boy Meets Girl and I though they didn’t always match the music well. I prefer the softer ending to Too Much In Love To Care, and I think we’ve had various different softer endings to the song in recent UK production. Overall, it’s good to have another, and very different, recording of the show. |
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Post by ceebee on Oct 27, 2024 7:42:44 GMT
If I remember correctly, the London version used to feature both dark windows and blind windows, certainly in previews. Used to get terribly confusing. Does anybody else remember?
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Post by BVM on Oct 27, 2024 7:50:19 GMT
It’s not the missing songs so much, as they were never my favourites; it’s the lines they’ve changed or omitted or songs truncated (like Surrender) or outright butchered (Too Much In Love). And why erase all the mentions of Norma’s contemporaries - Clara Bow, Douglas Fairbanks etc - if they’re going to retain the story about Rudy Valentino? It doesn’t make much sense. I’m not nuts about the girl playing Betty but all the other voices are amazing, so minor niggles aside it’s a great recording. I agree with newyorkcityboy in many respects. I think this is probably, on balance, the best recording of the show. Thr LuPone version is pre the US revisions and there are some odd cuts. Glenn Close gives the best performance of Norma on stage I’ve seen, I didn’t see the Lloyd version, and whilst I have found myself listening to the LA cast more since I saw Close, her voice isn’t really a pleasant listen. The Canadian cast has been my “go to” recording. The orchestra is clearly the strength of this version, it sounds great. Nicole seems to truly live the role of Norma and totally inhabit her. I thought her big numbers were thrilling. I didn’t miss the two cut songs and I’d imagine the stage show possibly moves along without them better. I found a couple of the lyric changes odd, for example why did Blind Windows become Dark Windows? Removing most of the references to Norma’s contemporaries yet leaving in the references to Valentino seemed odd. Removing references to slaves seemed like some form of unnecessary political correctness. I sensed there was an attempt to change Betty and make her a bit of a stronger character. I wasn’t always keen on the lyric changes to Boy Meets Girl and I though they didn’t always match the music well. I prefer the softer ending to Too Much In Love To Care, and I think we’ve had various different softer endings to the song in recent UK production. Overall, it’s good to have another, and very different, recording of the show. You pick up on an excellent point re all the RUG recordings of the Nunn version. The WPC were my fave recorded cast by a mile. Loved LuPone and Anderson. But there were indeed cuts and it ended up being an early version of the show and the revisions that went to LA were moderately extensive (to a Sunset geek). That album is a superb record of the entire show. I honesty can't listen to Glenn sing on record though, it's borderline painful (to me; fully respect that some people find it the second coming). So I only really listen to the WPC. Anyway, I absolutely wish we could have had Patti and Kevin singing the complete show/1994 onwards version. But like so many musicals your dream recording would take elements from all that is out there. Not unusual I guess! But yeah, I do think the new album has just about pushed the WPC into second place (for now)...... It's perfection! Be interesting to see which ends up being my go to in 10 years time. |
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Post by BVM on Oct 27, 2024 7:54:59 GMT
Re: Too Much In Love To Care it does seem unusually unpopular with a lot of Sunset fans.
I have always loved it - it's pure ALW at his lushest most uninhibited sweeping best! I guess maybe tonally people feel it's not as dark/complex as the rest of the score and maybe slightly "cheesier?" (Am guessing here).
So yeah, loved it anyway, but the changes take it next level for me. The orchestral swell in the middle (sublime), the kiss, Artie's tear and the earpiece coming out - it's total goosebumps for me. Easily my fave musical 30 secs in Act 2 joint with the middle section of AIWNSG!
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Post by andypandy on Oct 27, 2024 9:44:38 GMT
I have said this 27848 times since the 90's Betty needs a solo in act 2!!
(BTW I adore Too Much In Love Too Care and miss the dramatic big finish!)
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Post by theatreian on Oct 27, 2024 10:12:16 GMT
I have always loved it - it's pure ALW at his lushest I've always loved it too and that was the only element of the new production I didn't enjoy as I really missed the big ending.Still that was a minor quibble in the big scheme of things. |
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Post by newyorkcityboy on Oct 27, 2024 11:13:36 GMT
Some interesting points all round. For me a ‘go to’ recording is always about the voices, not the orchestra, because the voices communicate the story. It’s also about associations. Which is why I prefer the OLCs of Les Mis/Phantom/Sunset/Saigon over the later, fancier, more orchestral versions; those casts are pretty much definitive and will always ‘be’ those characters to me.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Oct 27, 2024 13:55:39 GMT
I’ve always found Too Much In Love a bit frenetic and the female part can come off as shrill. Much prefer this latest version.
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Post by chernjam on Oct 27, 2024 16:32:47 GMT
It’s not the missing songs so much, as they were never my favourites; it’s the lines they’ve changed or omitted or songs truncated (like Surrender) or outright butchered (Too Much In Love). And why erase all the mentions of Norma’s contemporaries - Clara Bow, Douglas Fairbanks etc - if they’re going to retain the story about Rudy Valentino? It doesn’t make much sense. I’m not nuts about the girl playing Betty but all the other voices are amazing, so minor niggles aside it’s a great recording. I agree with newyorkcityboy in many respects. I think this is probably, on balance, the best recording of the show. Thr LuPone version is pre the US revisions and there are some odd cuts. Glenn Close gives the best performance of Norma on stage I’ve seen, I didn’t see the Lloyd version, and whilst I have found myself listening to the LA cast more since I saw Close, her voice isn’t really a pleasant listen. The Canadian cast has been my “go to” recording. The orchestra is clearly the strength of this version, it sounds great. Nicole seems to truly live the role of Norma and totally inhabit her. I thought her big numbers were thrilling. I didn’t miss the two cut songs and I’d imagine the stage show possibly moves along without them better. I found a couple of the lyric changes odd, for example why did Blind Windows become Dark Windows? Removing most of the references to Norma’s contemporaries yet leaving in the references to Valentino seemed odd. Removing references to slaves seemed like some form of unnecessary political correctness. I sensed there was an attempt to change Betty and make her a bit of a stronger character. I wasn’t always keen on the lyric changes to Boy Meets Girl and I though they didn’t always match the music well. I prefer the softer ending to Too Much In Love To Care, and I think we’ve had various different softer endings to the song in recent UK production. Overall, it’s good to have another, and very different, recording of the show. Chris is spot on in terms of the recordings. Every one had something and missed something... I'll add the German Cast recording with Helen Schneider was amazing - orchestra sounds phenomenal and Helen is a powerful Norma (probably ranking up there with Nicole for me) - but it was only a highlights and in German - which no offense, of all the foreign languages to hear sung is the most difficult to listen to for me. I've always felt badly about the World Premiere Recording. But having listened to Michael Riedel's podcast with interviews with Patti and ALW - it fleshed out what a complete s-storm the World Premiere turned out for everyone, with enough blame to go around for everyone. It seems like for the creative team, they wanted to rush with the recording and just get to LA with a chance to clear their minds and do the work that should have been done in previews if they could have. All that being said, I agree with the question about why the change from "Blind Windows" to "Dark Windows"? "Let's Do Lunch" I get (which I think was covered here, was a disagreement that they had in 1993 when it was found that no one "did" lunch back then - but was a more modern saying) |
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Post by blamerobots on Oct 27, 2024 17:00:38 GMT
I'm utterly ineffectual about Too Much In Love To Care. The lyrics are not the greatest, and it's all a bit Disney, sorry. Does anyone else find the resolution of Betty and Joe's relationship a pretty weak point of the show? I think it's the tone of the music, because the "Every Movie's a Circus" motif captures the snark of their conversations really well and then it launches into what sounds like a Phantom reject with wishy-washy lyrics. Feels like it was inserted into the show last minute as another one for the radio.
But I think JL did wonders with it with the direction, esp with Artie on the screen whereas footage of the Nunn staging has it a bit static. Just wish the song was a bit better.
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Post by max on Oct 27, 2024 20:35:48 GMT
I'm utterly ineffectual about Too Much In Love To Care. The lyrics are not the greatest, and it's all a bit Disney, sorry. Does anyone else find the resolution of Betty and Joe's relationship a pretty weak point of the show? I think it's the tone of the music, because the "Every Movie's a Circus" motif captures the snark of their conversations really well and then it launches into what sounds like a Phantom reject with wishy-washy lyrics. Feels like it was inserted into the show last minute as another one for the radio.
But I think JL did wonders with it with the direction, esp with Artie on the screen whereas footage of the Nunn staging has it a bit static. Just wish the song was a bit better.
I felt the same about this song, based on recordings; but the first time I saw the show was the first UK tour and I was surprised at how well it worked in context; one of the stand-outs even. I think because they're on the back lot with all the flimsy outdoor film sets it's fine for them to get washed over and caught up with 'that' kind of cliched Hollywood music. For a jaded cynic, there can be that sense of awkwardness and embarassment at feeling emotions you feel you've seen in a movie. 'Am I really feeling this, or reproducing a feeling I've seen on screen, and think I ought to feel?'. Or as the lyric has it "I can't believe all the things I'm feeling". That's why I can't get on with the loss of one of Joe's lyrics in the Jamie Lloyd version*: "I knew where I was, I'd given up hope, made friends with disillusion" but without the comforting certainty of nihilism "now it's all confusion". It situates the song and (for me) justifies the overly lush music even taking over Joe, against his will and understanding. A shame as well to take that notch on the road to self-realisation away from the character and actor. *I presume this is out - I think it was in when I saw it in London. |
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Post by distantcousin on Oct 28, 2024 13:08:53 GMT
Re: Too Much In Love To Care it does seem unusually unpopular with a lot of Sunset fans. I have always loved it - it's pure ALW at his lushest most uninhibited sweeping best! I guess maybe tonally people feel it's not as dark/complex as the rest of the score and maybe slightly "cheesier?" (Am guessing here). So yeah, loved it anyway, but the changes take it next level for me. The orchestral swell in the middle (sublime), the kiss, Artie's tear and the earpiece coming out - it's total goosebumps for me. Easily my fave musical 30 secs in Act 2 joint with the middle section of AIWNSG! Did you see the Craig Revel Horwood version where the performance of it was turned completely on it's head? And done as an angry/frustrated expression of feelings that Joe and Betty desperately wanted to deny. |
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Post by christya on Oct 28, 2024 16:11:30 GMT
Having a listen to this at the moment - mostly love Nicole's delivery (even if she does do one of my pet hates, "With one look, I'll be MAY!" Not sure the song needed to be slowed down quite that much , but it didn't spoil it.
The lyric changes all over the place, though. Horrible, pointless lyric changes which either mean nothing (Let's Do Lunch etc) or gut the history out of the show (ditching 'The Fairbanks, the Gilberts, the Valentinos'). Also really not keen on Betty, there's usually a young tone to her voice which I'm not hearing at all, she sounds almost cynical.
Overall a solid recording and worth it for Nicole alone, but it could have been much better if they'd left more things alone.
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Post by 141920grm on Oct 28, 2024 16:22:31 GMT
Betty, there's usually a young tone to her voice which I'm not hearing at all, she sounds almost cynical For me personally I cared nothing for all of the cast recording Bettys until I saw Grace’s interpretation. That bit more sass and fire brought Betty alive and fits well in the moments with a more ‘modern’ tone |
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Post by danb on Oct 28, 2024 17:46:19 GMT
Having a listen to this at the moment - mostly love Nicole's delivery (even if she does do one of my pet hates, "With one look, I'll be MAY!". ‘Eeeeee’ is neither a dramatic nor a pleasant noise to hear belted, hence the placement as ‘Mayyy’ instead. I’m quite defensive though because it is the delivery of that line that my enjoyment of the whole show is normally based on. |
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Post by karloscar on Oct 28, 2024 17:52:05 GMT
By cutting the song so drastically the progression for the characters seems to disappear. Maybe it works on stage with visuals, but listening to it, they still seem to be in the same place at the end. Mind you it's nothing compared to Nicole's hideous vowels. "With Juan luck h'all bay May!" Don't think it'll be going on my playlist anytime soon.
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Post by marob on Oct 28, 2024 18:37:24 GMT
By cutting the song so drastically the progression for the characters seems to disappear. Maybe it works on stage with visuals, but listening to it, they still seem to be in the same place at the end. Mind you it's nothing compared to Nicole's hideous vowels. "With Juan luck h'all bay May!" Don't think it'll be going on my playlist anytime soon. Was starting to think I was the only one who noticed that. “Hi don’t know huwhy hi’m frightened…” |
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Post by christya on Oct 28, 2024 22:43:37 GMT
‘Eeeeee’ is neither a dramatic nor a pleasant noise to hear belted, hence the placement as ‘Mayyy’ instead. I’m quite defensive though because it is the delivery of that line that my enjoyment of the whole show is normally based on. Oh, I know why they do it. But there’s a middle point where you can put some of the ‘ay’ sound in without making it a whole different word. One example I can think of is the ending of ‘Never Enough’ in The Greatest Showman where the singer changes the tone beautifully. Nicole just went a bit too far for me. That, and the horribly self-indulgent ‘I’ve come home at last’ were the only parts I outright disliked from her. |
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Post by danb on Oct 29, 2024 0:11:47 GMT
‘Never Enough’ is literally exactly the same. 😂
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Post by BVM on Oct 29, 2024 8:49:20 GMT
Re: Too Much In Love To Care it does seem unusually unpopular with a lot of Sunset fans. I have always loved it - it's pure ALW at his lushest most uninhibited sweeping best! I guess maybe tonally people feel it's not as dark/complex as the rest of the score and maybe slightly "cheesier?" (Am guessing here). So yeah, loved it anyway, but the changes take it next level for me. The orchestral swell in the middle (sublime), the kiss, Artie's tear and the earpiece coming out - it's total goosebumps for me. Easily my fave musical 30 secs in Act 2 joint with the middle section of AIWNSG! Did you see the Craig Revel Horwood version where the performance of it was turned completely on it's head? And done as an angry/frustrated expression of feelings that Joe and Betty desperately wanted to deny. I did indeed see the CRH version! But only once sadly. I appreciated it but I think I was too distraught at how small everything was compared to the original (I probs would have appreciated it more 10 years later!) and I don't recall that interpretation of TMILTC. Sounds very interesting though and I can imagine it working! |
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Post by distantcousin on Oct 29, 2024 8:52:27 GMT
Did you see the Craig Revel Horwood version where the performance of it was turned completely on it's head? And done as an angry/frustrated expression of feelings that Joe and Betty desperately wanted to deny. I did indeed see the CRH version! But only once sadly. I appreciated it but I think I was too distraught at how small everything was compared to the original (I probs would have appreciated it more 10 years later!) and I don't recall that interpretation of TMILTC. Sounds very interesting though and I can imagine it working! I ended up down the Comedy Theatre (as was) 4 times in the end I think, so have quite clear memories of certain scenes. That production had some really inventive ideas, and I loved Kathryn Evans and also Laura Pitt Pulford and Dave Willets too (the scariest Max I've ever witnessed!) |
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Post by BVM on Oct 29, 2024 9:09:43 GMT
I did indeed see the CRH version! But only once sadly. I appreciated it but I think I was too distraught at how small everything was compared to the original (I probs would have appreciated it more 10 years later!) and I don't recall that interpretation of TMILTC. Sounds very interesting though and I can imagine it working! I ended up down the Comedy Theatre (as was) 4 times in the end I think, so have quite clear memories of certain scenes. That production had some really inventive ideas, and I loved Kathryn Evans and also Laura Pitt Pulford and Dave Willets too (the scariest Max I've ever witnessed!) Oh wow! I truly wish I'd seem it more now! Am sure there was much there to enjoy. And I do remember Evans being fantastic. I was probably distracted by the big shiny Pimlott Joseph revival being on or imminent at the Adelphi (I think it was that kind of era?!) |
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Post by christya on Oct 29, 2024 15:13:23 GMT
‘Never Enough’ is literally exactly the same. 😂 The intent is the same, but it's the difference between 'me' edging into 'may' (Never Enough) and not even trying to remember that the word was originally 'me' (Nicole). I actually prefer it to be avoided in either case (it's perfectly possible to sing 'me' and not be a warbling screecher) but I'd say Never Enough goes 50/50 on the me/may blending and Nicole goes 100% into 'may'. |
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Post by Jonnyboy on Oct 29, 2024 15:13:56 GMT
Code WITHONELOOK gets you 20% off in the official store. I’m debating whether to get the blood red vinyl, even though I don’t have a record player and am still annoyed at myself for not making the trip down to London to see the show!
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Post by ceebee on Oct 29, 2024 15:22:50 GMT
Code WITHONELOOK gets you 20% off in the official store. I’m debating whether to get the blood red vinyl, even though I don’t have a record player and am still annoyed at myself for not making the trip down to London to see the show! It is worth every penny, especially at £38.40. |
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