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Post by mkb on Nov 13, 2022 3:12:33 GMT
Who is being sent meringues and dressing gowns? PR people. And Theatre bloggers/reviewers. Is this legal? If I am sent unsolicited free gifts at work, I am required by my employer to return them, so that I don't fall foul of corruption and bribery legislation.
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Post by Jon on Nov 13, 2022 3:21:00 GMT
PR people. And Theatre bloggers/reviewers. Is this legal? If I am sent unsolicited free gifts at work, I am required by my employer to return them, so that I don't fall foul of corruption and bribery legislation. It's a cake to promote the show, not bribery.
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Post by mkb on Nov 13, 2022 11:33:53 GMT
Is this legal? If I am sent unsolicited free gifts at work, I am required by my employer to return them, so that I don't fall foul of corruption and bribery legislation. It's a cake to promote the show, not bribery. Ah, I see. Cakes in the shape of dressing gowns. I thought it meant actual dressing gowns. Sorry.
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Post by stuartmcd on Nov 13, 2022 11:45:03 GMT
It's a cake to promote the show, not bribery. Ah, I see. Cakes in the shape of dressing gowns. I thought it meant actual dressing gowns. Sorry. No it was cakes and dressing gowns. Some sort of creamy cake where they are encouraged to press their face into it and also a dressing gown with the shows logo on it.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Nov 13, 2022 15:20:05 GMT
Smart. Basically means these bloggers will feel so flattered by this that they won’t say a word against the show when it’s on.
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Nov 13, 2022 17:51:18 GMT
probably the same marketing company that sent out treacle tarts when tina got announced. the way to someone's heart is through their sweet tooth!
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 13, 2022 17:56:29 GMT
I know we’ve (rightfully) questioned the impartiality of reviewers working for the mainstream press but if getting a good review from a blogger/vlogger is dependent on a gift of a cake/dressing gown/tote bag/doll* or any other trashy item then we are in trouble.
*ETA free tickets too, obvs.
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Post by sph on Nov 13, 2022 18:01:46 GMT
I tend to find that the bloggers and youtubers are overly kind in their reviews anyway, so inviting them guarantees a bit of free (good) publicity. It seems to be pretty common for baked goods to make their way around the West End when a new show is imminent.
And if the humour and writing were dated on Broadway, I hope it will have been sharpened and reworked for British audiences. I (hopefully) can't imagine them saying "Well this really flopped over here, let's just repeat exactly what we did over there."
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Post by Jon on Nov 13, 2022 18:15:34 GMT
Surely free swag isn't going to sway anyone? Film studios often send free stuff to promote a film and it's never in exchange for good reviews.
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Post by cezbear on Nov 13, 2022 18:32:46 GMT
Surely free swag isn't going to sway anyone? Film studios often send free stuff to promote a film and it's never in exchange for good reviews. I think our theatre bloggers generally tend to review things pretty positively anyway, and although I'm sure it's not as literal or deliberate as 'I got free stuff, I'd better give a good review!' I think it's highly likely to at least subconsciously influence the review. You're going to be far less likely to really trash something when they sent you free cake. You'd feel bad and try not to. Well, maybe that's just me, I'm probably anyone's for free cake...
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Post by Jon on Nov 13, 2022 18:39:43 GMT
Surely free swag isn't going to sway anyone? Film studios often send free stuff to promote a film and it's never in exchange for good reviews. I think our theatre bloggers generally tend to review things pretty positively anyway, and although I'm sure it's not as literal or deliberate as 'I got free stuff, I'd better give a good review!' I think it's highly likely to at least subconsciously influence the review. You're going to be far less likely to really trash something when they sent you free cake. You'd feel bad and try not to. Well, maybe that's just me, I'm probably anyone's for free cake... I clearly wouldn't be a good blogger as I'd take the swag and still trash a show if I didn't like it!
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Post by viserys on Nov 13, 2022 18:43:18 GMT
I clearly wouldn't be a good blogger as I'd take the swag and still trash a show if I didn't like it! That would make you a GOOD and honest blogger in my opinion! I am not against these shows, but I don't care for these "cock in a frock" musicals (to borrow a phrase from Priscilla) and have zero interest in seeing this. I'm mostly depressed that we get shows that were massive flops on Broadway presented like this now, while some shows that have been doing much better are just not coming over. Where's Beetlejuice, Hadestown, Groundhog Day coming back, even Mean Girls, which I personally don't care for but will certainly tap into a ready audience of Heathers/Six/DEH fans?
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Post by idinafanzel on Nov 13, 2022 22:37:11 GMT
I know we’ve (rightfully) questioned the impartiality of reviewers working for the mainstream press but if getting a good review from a blogger/vlogger is dependent on a gift of a cake/dressing gown/tote bag/doll* or any other trashy item then we are in trouble. *ETA free tickets too, obvs. Some of them are worried about losing their free tickets. They don’t like to upset certain companies in case it means they cannot visit again in the future for nothing. I remember Mickey-Jo got in a right huff about not getting a press ticket to the bands visit. Would you consider being a blogger / vlogger a job ? Do they actually get paid ?
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Post by Jon on Nov 13, 2022 22:59:09 GMT
TBF to the Donmar, they're a small venue so they cannot afford to give away too many freebies.
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Post by mickeyjotheatre on Nov 13, 2022 23:27:13 GMT
I know we’ve (rightfully) questioned the impartiality of reviewers working for the mainstream press but if getting a good review from a blogger/vlogger is dependent on a gift of a cake/dressing gown/tote bag/doll* or any other trashy item then we are in trouble. *ETA free tickets too, obvs. Some of them are worried about losing their free tickets. They don’t like to upset certain companies in case it means they cannot visit again in the future for nothing. I remember Mickey-Jo got in a right huff about not getting a press ticket to the bands visit. Would you consider being a blogger / vlogger a job ? Do they actually get paid ? Indeed I do, you might be surprised With regards to the PR packages (cakes/ dressing gowns), it's a tricky one as these are distributed to us as sizeable social media users rather than as critics, hence they don't send any to the times! It's a tricky duality to navigate, WhatsOnStage operates in a similar capacity as an advertiser as well as reviewing, just depends on the integrity of the critic
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Post by og on Nov 14, 2022 17:23:33 GMT
I know we’ve (rightfully) questioned the impartiality of reviewers working for the mainstream press but if getting a good review from a blogger/vlogger is dependent on a gift of a cake/dressing gown/tote bag/doll* or any other trashy item then we are in trouble. *ETA free tickets too, obvs. Tell that to the tabloids
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Post by shady23 on Nov 14, 2022 23:38:21 GMT
The way heating costs are rocketing if any show would like to send me a dressing gown it would be most welcome.
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Post by n1david on Nov 14, 2022 23:46:40 GMT
As someone who was obviously not following the original thread that this has been broken out from, can someone given me some context? For example, at least the name of the show being hyped?
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Post by Mark on Nov 14, 2022 23:50:29 GMT
As someone who was obviously not following the original thread that this has been broken out from, can someone given me some context? For example, at least the name of the show being hyped? It was Mrs Doubtfire Bloggers were sent meringue pies and dressing gowns.
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Post by sph on Nov 15, 2022 2:30:05 GMT
I seeeee, so essentially the pie and the dressing gown combined means that people with a large theatre social media following can recreate the iconic scene from the movie and post themselves doing it.
Whether or not you agree with the ethics, it is a clever piece of marketing.
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Post by og on Nov 15, 2022 7:52:09 GMT
I don’t get the sudden outrage. If this is the first time you’ve been aware of reviewers, bloggers, or any form of press receiving promotional articles (be it tickets, merch , etc) then perhaps you’ve been living in a bubble.
Heard the word “influencer” lately? They exist almost solely on a constant stream of freebies, comps and goodwill, because their reach has value. For decades Press night at theatres has never been an evening of a full house of paying attendees. Critics and reviewers will get comped seats (though not on the understanding they’ll give a favourable review) but because they will subsequently go out and talk about (promote) the show.
All those performance features on programmes like The One Show are another strand of this. ‘Come perform your song and we’ll talk about your show.’
Merchandise - be it free to a blogger, critic, celeb or influencer or brought off the stand by a fan - is just promotional material aimed at selling a product (in this case a show) further. Shows don’t sell hoodies for people to keep warm, it’s so that someone’s walking down the street wearing a big logo, advertising the show. In just the same way, providing some thematic goodies to people with a large relevant reach is doing just the same, advertising the show.
This is nothing new and has existed in many different forms over the years in countless industries. Roll back a few decades and if a pub landlord buys enough of a product they’ll get beer mats, flags, and a whole host of other tat for free to distribute to promote a product. This is just another vein of the same stream.
Welcome to the world of advertising.
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Post by theatrefan62 on Nov 15, 2022 10:02:11 GMT
I agree this is nothing new and bloggers are all part of the influencer model.
The problem is though once they get on media and pr lists they usually lose the objectivity to some degree so they don't lose out on exclusive invites, sponsorships etc. Many also already have built in bias for one reason or another (e.g. in theatres case for or against actors, creative etc).
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Post by NorthernAlien on Nov 15, 2022 11:21:34 GMT
(Disclosure - I review theatre for a long-running, UK-based magazine, with a "niche" readership. Sometimes, I get invited to Press Nights. I am on some PR Lists, my editor at the magazine is on many more, and will forward Press Night invites to me. We decline more Press Night invites than we accept, for a variety of reasons, some to do with logistics (usually too short notice), some because the show doesn't match up with our audience.)
I think some people here are under a misunderstanding about how 'PR lists' work.
So, let's say you're a person/company/venue, who has a show that you want people to come and see. You might have a formal press night, but this is less likely if you're at the smaller scale/fringe end of proceedings. Even so, the person/company/venue, has outsourced the PR for their show to a PR company. Sometimes the PR company is a huge operation, sometimes it's one woman in zone 5 with a fierce set of connections. Other than the payment of a budget from the person/company/venue to the PR agency, there is unlikely to be a formal connection between the two even if the PR agency acts for the person/company/venue on a repeat basis.
So, PR person gets in touch with reviewer/blogger/influencer: "Hey, we've got this great new show we're really excited about. Can we offer you a ticket for press night/interview with {actor/other creative}/some copy for your newspaper/magazine/website/etc?" Sometimes, the show they've got is relevant to your interests and the interests of your audience. Sometimes it's not. You have a conversation about that. In some cases, you agree to see the show for review (either at Press Night, or, in the case of those smaller shows, at some point in the run). You get a "free ticket" to the show. Depending on the size of the venue, the existence or not of a formal press night, and the extent of the reviewer's perceived 'reach', you might get a Plus One - not always though. If you're very lucky, you get a voucher for a free drink for when you see the show.
You see the show. It's... OK? Not outright terrible. Not brilliant. You write a review. Because you're not an awful human being, you try to find something nice about it - maybe the costumes were lovely? Maybe the actors were doing the best job they could with the material they'd been given? But you also ensure that there's no pull quote in what you say, and you give it three stars out of 5 (the star rating that marketing departments cannot use). You produce that review within 24 hours of seeing the show.
The PR agency have your details now. The next time they have a show, they will contact you, and, once again, offer you a "free ticket".
You would have to go completely off-piste in a review (think - racism, sexism, able-ism, just outright insults and swearing), to be taken off a PR's list.
It's all a game - they know that, we know that. They are just trying to get the existence of their show known by as many people as possible, for the smallest spend possible.
If a show is terrible, then, trust me, the PR agency will realise that pretty quickly, and, again, as long as you aren't outright insulting in your review, they'll still be in touch about future shows. And, as noted above, a decent marketing team can use 1 and 2 stars effectively in an ad campaign ("Come and see the show the critics hated - but you know better, don't you?").
If a show is great, then let the four and five stars roll! I had a good time, I enjoyed the show, or was challenged by the content and people should experience this. Fantastic! Let the superlatives and the Pull-Quote worthy words flow! You publish within 24 hours, and you find yourself on the posters! (Note - if you aren't MSM, or a specialist theatre review site (West End Wilma etc), you aren't getting onto the poster, unless it's Edinburgh Fringe, where they'll throw every decent review they get onto their hoardings).
And being sent 'merch' or any sort of freebie is really, really unusual. Mrs Doubtfire is the sort of show with a huge budget that will have a correspondingly huge budget for marketing, and so they can afford to spend what probably amounts to a Grand or so on freebies to a small number of people.
I put "Free ticket" in speech marks, because "free" is an interesting word. There's the cost of getting to the theatre - everyone has one, unless you live literally on the theatre's doorstep. Then there's the cost of time to write up the review. Even a 500 word piece is a good couple of hours in front of the PC - there is no such thing as 'a quick blog post'. In my day job, I charge a minimum of £40 per hour for my time. I realise not everyone is paid at that level, but theatre is a game for people with money, especially these days, and I am, very obviously, at the poorer end of the pool whenever I go and see anything (including shows I've bought a ticket for). So, let's be generous and assume it only takes me an hour to travel to the show - two hours at the show - one hour home - write and publish review: 3 hours? (that's probably on the quick side). That's 7 hours - which is £280 worth of my time, *plus* the actual cost of travel, *plus* the cost of grabbing a Tesco Meal Deal on the way to the theatre (Press Nights have a tendency to start early). £300 isn't unreasonable by this point. For a 'free ticket' with a face value of somewhere from £40 - £75 - because the 'best seats' at Press Nights, those ones that are "Premium Seats" in the West End - they go to friends and family of the cast and 'celebrities', on Press Night - actual Press/reviewers/bloggers/influencers are seated further back, or to the sides.
Sometimes, a company/venue might have their own in-house PR/Marketing team. That's unusual, but does happen. If you slate their shows, you might find yourself off the list, but again, depends on how big your reach is, and whether they know that the show is terrible. The Times could slate shows repeatedly, and still get invited back every subsequent time.
A 'Free ticket' for being on a PR list doesn't mean that we 'lose the objectivity' at all. And I'd point out that the people at the top of the tree (The Guardian, The Times) are on exactly the same PR list as those of us writing for smaller publications / Social Media audiences are. I once sat next to Mark Shenton, then of The Stage, at a Press Night for a show at Southwark Playhouse. He hated the show (I read his review), we loved it - but the specific show was exactly the sort of thing that our readers would be very into. Mark Shenton has not lost his objectivity by being given a free ticket, and a small glass of white wine, and placed on a PR's List. Neither have I - and both he and I are on the radar of the same PRs.
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Post by NorthernAlien on Nov 15, 2022 11:32:13 GMT
TBF to the Donmar, they're a small venue so they cannot afford to give away too many freebies. And on the specific point about The Donmar - this ^. The Donmar is tiny. Once you've got all the MSM and big theatre websites, the family and friends of the cast of the show, the people who've paid for the most expensive tiers of membership at The Donmar, and some general industry people, there's not going to be space in the venue for those of us lower down the food chain. And it's The Donmar. They generally don't need acres of coverage to sell out the run of a show.
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Post by firefingers on Nov 15, 2022 12:11:56 GMT
Ooo I've got a story for this.
Years ago I worked on a London fringe production of an Olivier and Tony award-winning musical. It was the first non-large-scale commercial version of this show in the UK, and a modern show to boot, so an ambitious project for a small venue. Anyway it went well, even won a "Best Off-West End Production Award", and the critics all loved it. Bar one.
One, who will remain nameless, is in what I would consider the glorified blogger category of reviewers. Now, they may not have liked the show, fine. But given they called up on the day demanding an extra free ticket to that evening's press performance to be told "No, that theatre is small, and it is too late to arrange an extra comp on top of the one you already have, we're completely full" and then they threw a paddy, we couldn't help but feel this outlier review and the reviewer's self-importance might be linked.
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