4,601 posts
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Post by Mark on Nov 17, 2021 12:23:49 GMT
What exactly is the set up at the Playhouse then? A shared room with all cubicles or a shared room with urinals and cubicles? It's all cubicles Bifold doors so no "cracks" in the doors.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 17, 2021 12:25:26 GMT
This is why people get annoyed. People always try and shut down the debate. Sorry I give a sh*t about the transgender rights. I think there a many people that just flush them down the drain. I really don't don't give a sh*t if the toilets are male , female or everyone. I wish this topic got wiped off the board. I think some are just taking the piss I'd guess everyone here is fully supportive of trans people's right to feel comfortable about the facilities they use. This is more about women's negative experiences of some men, and their consequent anxiety about sharing private spaces with men. Public buildings should be designed to make all users feel welcome and comfortable, whether that's women, trans people, disabled people, religious, cultural or any other groups. Plenty of previous posts explain why that can't be achieved by getting rid of women's toilets. So it seems a simple solution to keep women's facilities and have additional mixed sex facilities, with or without men's. We shouldn't expect some women to put up with feeling scared/anxious/uncomfortable, and others to self-exclude, in order to be 'inclusive'.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 12:26:58 GMT
If each cubicle had its own sink - like a train or plane toilet- nobody would feel the need to complain. But building toilets like that are unusual.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 12:30:19 GMT
What exactly is the set up at the Playhouse then? A shared room with all cubicles or a shared room with urinals and cubicles? It's all cubicles Bifold doors so no "cracks" in the doors. This seems to eliminate a lot of people's concerns, so hopefully we can stop focusing on covid passes or toilets and actually talk about the production itself when people mention Cabaret :') (aware this is now in the toilet thread, but I just mean in general)
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1,658 posts
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Post by fiyero on Nov 17, 2021 12:38:03 GMT
I noticed recently The Mayflower in Southampton has gone to all cubicles in the gents toilet (but it is still a gents). The ones where the urinals used to be are really awkwardly shaped and for the bigger gentleman much worse than the urinals they replace! Not sure if they are planning to make them gender neutral next.
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6,368 posts
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Post by Jon on Nov 17, 2021 12:39:03 GMT
Theatre is already struggling as industry. Getting a reputation for wokism will cost further ticket sales. This could be what becomes the thing ordinary people must know about the production if it gets going in the press. No it won't, stop making things up again.
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360 posts
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Post by thebroadwayboy on Nov 17, 2021 13:52:41 GMT
Sorry I give a sh*t about the transgender rights. I think there a many people that just flush them down the drain. I really don't don't give a sh*t if the toilets are male , female or everyone. I wish this topic got wiped off the board. I think some are just taking the piss I'd guess everyone here is fully supportive of trans people's right to feel comfortable about the facilities they use. This is more about women's negative experiences of some men, and their consequent anxiety about sharing private spaces with men. Public buildings should be designed to make all users feel welcome and comfortable, whether that's women, trans people, disabled people, religious, cultural or any other groups. Plenty of previous posts explain why that can't be achieved by getting rid of women's toilets. So it seems a simple solution to keep women's facilities and have additional mixed sex facilities, with or without men's. We shouldn't expect some women to put up with feeling scared/anxious/uncomfortable, and others to self-exclude, in order to be 'inclusive'. Many sound transphobic to be honest. And I am not even trans. Some sound like they a trans bashing
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Post by longinthetooth on Nov 17, 2021 16:55:42 GMT
If each cubicle had its own sink - like a train or plane toilet- nobody would feel the need to complain. But building toilets like that are unusual. I have been in loos like this, but it makes the queues even longer, as we wash and dry our hands whilst still in the cubicle, and (assuming there is a mirror), check our hair, apply fresh lipstick, maybe touch up mascara, a spray of perfume etc etc .......
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Post by inthenose on Nov 17, 2021 23:22:05 GMT
I just find it baffling. In an effort to give a very small percentage of people more freedom, they are limiting the personal rights of the massive majority. It is the most excruciatingly narrow-sighted attempt at "inclusiveness" possible, in that it takes what is a small issue that "might" affect a tiny percentage of hypothetical people - and turns it into one which will affect the vast majority. Bizarre.
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290 posts
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Post by southstreet on Nov 18, 2021 9:21:04 GMT
Well I personally am all for gender neutral toilets if it means less queuing in intervals etc, so it does affect me as a woman, but only affects me positively. As for someone's comment about the cleanliness of men affecting gender neutral bathrooms, i.e. making them dirtier for women, according to a friend of mine who was a cleaner for a few years, the men's toilets were generally cleaner than the women's ones in all the establishments that she cleaned.
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2,974 posts
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Post by crowblack on Nov 18, 2021 10:10:49 GMT
If the queues for women's toilets are longer - and they generally are - that's because most venues have failed for decades to take into account (or care about) the fact that women take more time to have a wee than men. That's #everydaysexism, and not a problem 'solved' with mixed sex toilets which no-one I know likes using, not even the Guardian-reading men, but with better, proper, well-thought-out provision for women.
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290 posts
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Post by southstreet on Nov 18, 2021 10:28:31 GMT
Of course I don't think the mixed sex toilets have been brought in because it reduces the queues for women's toilets. And differently from you, no one I know has issues with mixed sex toilets, if anything I have non-binary and trans friends that welcome them. So I was just highlighting the positives for me, a cis woman, who those mixed sex toilets are supposedly disadvantaging, as I can't see a disadvantage as long as there are cubicles.
I perfectly understand that some women (or men) will feel uncomfortable in mixed toilets, but I don't think they will make toilets any less safe than they were before in real terms, as opposed to perception. But it will make them a lot safer in very real terms for a lot of trans, non-binary or gender non-conforming people!!! And whilst those people are obviously far from the majority, they aren't a tiny percentage anymore either, as luckily more and more people are feeling more free to openly be their real selves these days.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 11:24:34 GMT
Old west end theatres can only be altered so much. Trying to solve the problem of long queues for the women's toilets has been an issue for ages and there is no simple solution - it is not as if more toilets can just be added. This to me seems like a perfectly sensible solution to help reduce queues as much as possible by eliminating the number of toilets not in use because they're inaccessible to half the audience.
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Post by cavocado on Nov 18, 2021 12:15:14 GMT
I perfectly understand that some women (or men) will feel uncomfortable in mixed toilets, but I don't think they will make toilets any less safe than they were before in real terms, as opposed to perception. But it will make them a lot safer in very real terms for a lot of trans, non-binary or gender non-conforming people!!! And whilst those people are obviously far from the majority, they aren't a tiny percentage anymore either, as luckily more and more people are feeling more free to openly be their real selves these days. There are safety issues - women do sometimes get assaulted, abused, filmed, etc in public toilets - but perception is important too and involves real fears and discomfort. If you're a woman who has previously been sexually assaulted or abused by a stranger, or even just have a fear of this happening, then sometimes just being in an enclosed space with men you don't know causes panic and fear. Or maybe you're dealing with a period emergency or rinsing out a mooncup and would rather not do this around men. Or you have religious objections to mixed facilities. It may not be about risk, but just about comfort and dignity. Those are important too and I know women who avoid mixed loos because of this. I know other women who don't have those worries, which is great for them, but we shouldn't design services around the people who don't need them. We should aim for all users to feel comfortable, particularly when there's a blindingly obvious solution in providing mixed AND women's facilities.
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2,974 posts
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Post by crowblack on Nov 18, 2021 12:35:19 GMT
The temporary solution for old, listed buildings pressed for space and with long queues for the ladies loos is keep the women's single sex and make the men's 'neutral'. In the longer term, they should work to bring in a fourth 'universal' space alongside women's, men's and the disabled facility, for those who prefer that.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 13:12:53 GMT
The temporary solution for old, listed buildings pressed for space and with long queues for the ladies loos is keep the women's single sex and make the men's 'neutral'. In the longer term, they should work to bring in a fourth 'universal' space alongside women's, men's and the disabled facility, for those who prefer that. This is not the solution you think it is. Many theatres simply do not have the space to add any further facilities. As has come up in the news recently, some do not even have accessible toilets. Making only men's toilets neutral will result in even more backlash from people claiming it's one rule for men and another for women. I still believe Cabaret has landed on the best solution. There will have been plenty of discussion about it; it was hardly decided on a whim. And, no surprise, it's yet to make headlines, so I think the majority of people are relatively unbothered by it.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:14:16 GMT
The temporary solution for old, listed buildings pressed for space and with long queues for the ladies loos is keep the women's single sex and make the men's 'neutral'. In the longer term, they should work to bring in a fourth 'universal' space alongside women's, men's and the disabled facility, for those who prefer that. This is not the solution you think it is. Many theatres simply do not have the space to add any further facilities. As has come up in the news recently, some do not even have accessible toilets. Making only men's toilets neutral will result in even more backlash from people claiming it's one rule for men and another for women. I still believe Cabaret has landed on the best solution. There will have been plenty of discussion about it; it was hardly decided on a whim. And, no surprise, it's yet to make headlines, so I think the majority of people are relatively unbothered by it. There has only been two public performances. And the critics from newspapers who have printed anti gender neutral toilet stories haven’t been yet.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 13:20:00 GMT
This is not the solution you think it is. Many theatres simply do not have the space to add any further facilities. As has come up in the news recently, some do not even have accessible toilets. Making only men's toilets neutral will result in even more backlash from people claiming it's one rule for men and another for women. I still believe Cabaret has landed on the best solution. There will have been plenty of discussion about it; it was hardly decided on a whim. And, no surprise, it's yet to make headlines, so I think the majority of people are relatively unbothered by it. There has only been two public performances. And the critics from newspapers who have printed anti gender neutral toilet stories haven’t been yet. And probably shouldn't go. Doubt they'll be fans of the show... Regardless, I still doubt there's going to be any kind of media frenzy over it.
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2,817 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 18, 2021 13:26:25 GMT
The Old Vic's toilets have been gender-neutral for a couple of years and the world has not ended. Why should there be a media frenzy over something that has become increasingly common in the past few years?
Besides, Cabaret's toilets are gender-neutral only before the show starts, at the interval all the men go to the urinals to skip the super long queue of women.
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Post by Jon on Nov 18, 2021 13:32:01 GMT
The Old Vic's toilets have been gender-neutral for a couple of years and the world has not ended. Why should there be a media frenzy over something that has become increasingly common in the past few years? Besides, Cabaret's toilets are gender-neutral only before the show starts, at the interval all the men go to the urinals to skip the super long queue of women. I agree, the idea that shows and theatres will be shut down for having gender neutral toilets by the press is frankly ludicrous at best and downright insane at worse.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:32:33 GMT
The Old Vic's toilets have been gender-neutral for a couple of years and the world has not ended. Why should there be a media frenzy over something that has become increasingly common in the past few years? Besides, Cabaret's toilets are gender-neutral only before the show starts, at the interval all the men go to the urinals to skip the super long queue of women. I thought they were no urinals. Putting urinals in an open place is pretty controversial.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:35:23 GMT
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2,974 posts
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Post by crowblack on Nov 18, 2021 13:37:33 GMT
I refer you (again) to the head of the EHRC on Woman's Hour last month.
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2,817 posts
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Post by couldileaveyou on Nov 18, 2021 13:43:41 GMT
ooooh the dailymail attacked the Old Vic, thank god I was sitting down when I read the news. And what happened next? The theatre faced fiery protests and walked back on their decision or...?
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:44:14 GMT
ooooh the dailymail attacked the Old Vic, thank god I was sitting down when I read the news. And what happened next? The theatre faced fiery protests and walked back on their decision or...? The Government has now banned further public buildings from following in their example.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 13:44:37 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. This will certainly not be making top news story on the BBC any time soon. And I concur with those above - any article suggesting a show or theatre should be shut down for gender neutral toilets, especially after the last two years we have endured, doesn't deserve to be published, in my opinion. What nonsense that would be.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:48:13 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. This will certainly not be making top news story on the BBC any time soon. And I concur with those above - any article suggesting a show or theatre should be shut down for gender neutral toilets, especially after the last two years we have endured, doesn't deserve to be published, in my opinion. What nonsense that would be. So censorship then. Just because an article makes a point of view you disagree with. Do you realise why so many people hate those who want to close down the debate all the time. And I doubt any article would call for the show to be shut down. But they might call for the theatre to be refurbished to restore single sex toilets or even simply mention it without comment but knowing it will get coverage in the comments or on somewhere like Mumsnet.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 18, 2021 13:54:55 GMT
Ahhh, the effects of the echo chamber. If you read only papers written by people who have an issue with these things, it is easy to believe everyone has the same issue. I can assure you that is not the case. This will certainly not be making top news story on the BBC any time soon. And I concur with those above - any article suggesting a show or theatre should be shut down for gender neutral toilets, especially after the last two years we have endured, doesn't deserve to be published, in my opinion. What nonsense that would be. So censorship then. Just because an article makes a point of view you disagree with. Do you realise why so many people hate those who want to close down the debate all the time. And I doubt any article would call for the show to be shut down. But they might call for the theatre to be refurbished to restore single sex toilets. Arguing that a building full of people should lose their jobs because of something so trivial just doesn't seem worth the paper it's printed on. There isn't the spare cash, or the time to waste going dark, to facilitate any kind of refurbishment over something like that. Again, people would be out of work and not being paid. Still a nonsense suggestion.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 18, 2021 13:58:30 GMT
So censorship then. Just because an article makes a point of view you disagree with. Do you realise why so many people hate those who want to close down the debate all the time. And I doubt any article would call for the show to be shut down. But they might call for the theatre to be refurbished to restore single sex toilets. Arguing that a building full of people should lose their jobs because of something so trivial just doesn't seem worth the paper it's printed on. There isn't the spare cash, or the time to waste going dark, to facilitate any kind of refurbishment over something like that. Again, people would be out of work and not being paid. Still a nonsense suggestion. But it’s likely the last theatre to do so as future ones are banned by the change in the planning rules which the Times specifically say cover new theatres and theatres getting refurbished.
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Post by Jon on Nov 18, 2021 14:00:20 GMT
Arguing that a building full of people should lose their jobs because of something so trivial just doesn't seem worth the paper it's printed on. There isn't the spare cash, or the time to waste going dark, to facilitate any kind of refurbishment over something like that. Again, people would be out of work and not being paid. Still a nonsense suggestion. At least the article in the newspaper in question would have some use if you ran out of toilet paper.... But seriously, we need to nip in the bud the suggestion that the press, Government, Mumsnet etc will call for a theatre to be closed down over their toilets, it's not going to happen.
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