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Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2021 21:38:17 GMT
The Mixed gender toilets are going to generate a fair bit of debate being how much some people have talked about that issue in recent months. It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 16, 2021 21:44:27 GMT
The Mixed gender toilets are going to generate a fair bit of debate being how much some people have talked about that issue in recent months. It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none. The post above showed people were confused last night and only months ago the Government got involved in the issue of mixed toilets - it’s exactly the type of issue the press love to write articles about.
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6,318 posts
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Post by Jon on Nov 16, 2021 21:51:56 GMT
It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none. The post above showed people were confused last night and only months ago the Government got involved in the issue of mixed toilets - it’s exactly the type of issue the press love to write articles about. If you are trying to get the show closed, you're not doing a particularly good job.
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Post by fiyero on Nov 17, 2021 7:42:34 GMT
There was a woman at the interval last night when the queues were mad, and she was shouting at people 'men on the right, women on the left' because a few old people were like...where do I go? So it's going to cause some upset! I don’t get this. If toilets are mixed gender surely there should only be one queue?
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Post by justsaying113 on Nov 17, 2021 8:31:26 GMT
Gender neutral toilets, stickers for camera phones... The world's been handed over to lunatics!
Have a great time anyone going in the coming days.
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Post by thebroadwayboy on Nov 17, 2021 8:42:20 GMT
Gender neutral toilets, stickers for camera phones... The world's been handed over to lunatics! Have a great time anyone going in the coming days. I see you have an agenda with this. But with this topic there should be no agenda
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Post by cavocado on Nov 17, 2021 9:14:56 GMT
The Mixed gender toilets are going to generate a fair bit of debate being how much some people have talked about that issue in recent months. It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none. Lovely for you that you don't find it controversial, but maybe it's not something you have personal experience of? It's not unusual for women to feel various levels of fear/panic/discomfort when they find themselves alone with men they don't know, often because they've experienced abuse or assault in the past. This is why some of us prefer single sex loos, because mixed sex makes it more likely to find yourself alone with a man in an enclosed space. This is not suggesting that male theatregoers are dangerous - it's the previous life experience that causes the panic. Personally I think the only way to take account of everyone's needs it to have three lots of loos - male, female, mixed. And if that's not possible, then make the men's loos mixed, because I've not come across men who find this upsetting in the same way that many women do.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 17, 2021 9:20:20 GMT
It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none. The post above showed people were confused last night and only months ago the Government got involved in the issue of mixed toilets - it’s exactly the type of issue the press love to write articles about. And hopefully the EHRC take action on, because it's not in keeping with the Equality Act 2010. The new head of the EHRC, Baroness Falkner, was on Woman's Hour last month discussing the loss of women's single sex safe spaces and said the EHRC will be 'pointing out what the law says' to those bodies - and she specifically mentioned theatres - who have removed them. It's also quite telling of theatreland demographics that the requirements of religious Muslims and some other faiths for single sex spaces doesn't even seem to have entered their heads. This particular theatre has been extensively remodelled so they could have put in a fourth space for those who are happy to use mixed sex toilets while they were doing that.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 17, 2021 9:38:33 GMT
It really won't, stop trying to stir up controversy where there is none. Lovely for you that you don't find it controversial, but maybe it's not something you have personal experience of? It's not unusual for women to feel various levels of fear/panic/discomfort when they find themselves alone with men they don't know, often because they've experienced abuse or assault in the past. This is why some of us prefer single sex loos, because mixed sex makes it more likely to find yourself alone with a man in an enclosed space. This is not suggesting that male theatregoers are dangerous - it's the previous life experience that causes the panic. Personally I think the only way to take account of everyone's needs it to have three lots of loos - male, female, mixed. And if that's not possible, then make the men's loos mixed, because I've not come across men who find this upsetting in the same way that many women do. A close female relative was spied on under the partition in a museum toilet (something so much easier and more permanent and distributable in the era of slim mobile phone cameras and the internet), and I've been in a bar where a man followed a woman into the toilet and assaulted her. I was sexually assaulted in a busy department store. It happens in seconds. There's no signposting, no warning. Many theatres are open to the general public, not just ticket holders, and there's no CCTV in a toilet, and these venues haven't even bothered to close the partition gaps. The Royal Court bogs have a warning inside that thieves operate in the theatre - if you acknowledge people enter your venue with ill intent towards handbags and wallets, why not extend that thought to women's actual safety?
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 9:50:46 GMT
Theatre is already struggling as industry. Getting a reputation for wokism will cost further ticket sales. This could be what becomes the thing ordinary people must know about the production if it gets going in the press.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 9:51:32 GMT
Gender neutral toilets, stickers for camera phones... The world's been handed over to lunatics! Have a great time anyone going in the coming days. I see you have an agenda with this. But with this topic there should be no agenda This is why people get annoyed. People always try and shut down the debate.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 9:56:05 GMT
I doubt the number of people who will refuse to buy a ticket to what seems like it's going to be one of the shows of the year, just because there are gender neutral toilets, is very high. The Royal Albert Hall's had gender neutral toilets for ages - they are the only ones ever available to non-ticket holders - and shockingly is still standing.
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Post by viserys on Nov 17, 2021 10:10:12 GMT
I doubt the number of people who will refuse to buy a ticket to what seems like it's going to be one of the shows of the year, just because there are gender neutral toilets, is very high. The Royal Albert Hall's had gender neutral toilets for ages - they are the only ones ever available to non-ticket holders - and shockingly is still standing. So we women just have to accept that we'll feel unsafe/uncomfortable if we don't want to miss out on a show? It never ceases to amaze how how every tiny but very noisy minority gets catered for while the concerns of roughly 50% of the population are just wiped off the table.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 10:14:15 GMT
I doubt the number of people who will refuse to buy a ticket to what seems like it's going to be one of the shows of the year, just because there are gender neutral toilets, is very high. The Royal Albert Hall's had gender neutral toilets for ages - they are the only ones ever available to non-ticket holders - and shockingly is still standing. So we women just have to accept that we'll feel unsafe/uncomfortable if we don't want to miss out on a show? It never ceases to amaze how how every tiny but very noisy minority gets catered for while the concerns of roughly 50% of the population are just wiped off the table. I am a woman. I haven't been to Cabaret yet so can't comment on that theatre specifically, but single stall gender neutral toilets are a pretty common thing. Every Starbucks or Costa has them. Doesn't stop women from getting coffee.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 17, 2021 10:25:05 GMT
So we women just have to accept that we'll feel unsafe/uncomfortable if we don't want to miss out on a show? It never ceases to amaze how how every tiny but very noisy minority gets catered for while the concerns of roughly 50% of the population are just wiped off the table. I am a woman. I haven't been to Cabaret yet so can't comment on that theatre specifically, but single stall gender neutral toilets are a pretty common thing. Every Starbucks or Costa has them. Doesn't stop women from getting coffee. Single self-contained toilets with washbasins, mirrors and dryers that open directly onto a room or corridor that can be overlooked by staff are 'safe' though often unpleasant as many men are, shall we say, more careless in their toilet use than women. We have these on trains and in some venues like the Photographers' Gallery. What we are talking about is toilets where you go into a non-CCTV-covered room with washbasins (and these days, urinals) and several toilet stalls in a row with gaps above and below the doors and in some venues gaps between stalls too. If the venue is really pushed for space it could make the men's mixed sex, and leave the women's single sex.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 10:32:23 GMT
I am a woman. I haven't been to Cabaret yet so can't comment on that theatre specifically, but single stall gender neutral toilets are a pretty common thing. Every Starbucks or Costa has them. Doesn't stop women from getting coffee. Single self-contained toilets with washbasins, mirrors and dryers that open directly onto a room or corridor that can be overlooked by staff are 'safe' though often unpleasant as many men are, shall we say, more careless in their toilet use than women. We have these on trains and in some venues like the Photographers' Gallery. What we are talking about is toilets where you go into a non-CCTV-covered room with washbasins (and these days, urinals) and several toilet stalls in a row with gaps above and below the doors and in some venues gaps between stalls too. Is that the case in cabaret. If so they going to get hell in the press.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 10:32:44 GMT
I think it's being slightly over-dramatised with 'gaps between stalls'. This is not America - many public toilets here don't even have gaps above and below the doors. All this sounds to me like a great way to reduce the ridiculous queues for the women's toilets at theatres while men have no queue at all. I do not see a problem, nor do I think this set up sounds in any way unsafe. And all this talk is probably better suited to the specific theatre toilets thread in the general section, as it really has no bearing on the production itself.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 10:33:35 GMT
Single self-contained toilets with washbasins, mirrors and dryers that open directly onto a room or corridor that can be overlooked by staff are 'safe' though often unpleasant as many men are, shall we say, more careless in their toilet use than women. We have these on trains and in some venues like the Photographers' Gallery. What we are talking about is toilets where you go into a non-CCTV-covered room with washbasins (and these days, urinals) and several toilet stalls in a row with gaps above and below the doors and in some venues gaps between stalls too. Is that the case in cabaret. If so they going to get hell in the press. Do you honestly think the 'press' will care...? Hopefully they spend more time talking about what sounds like a great show than they do the set up of the toilets!
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 10:35:57 GMT
Is that the case in cabaret. If so they going to get hell in the press. Do you honestly think the 'press' will care...? Hopefully they spend more time talking about what sounds like a great show than they do the set up of the toilets! Have you not seen how much coverage this issue has gotten recently. Public buildings have been ordered by the government to build single sex toilets and the ECHR has threatened legal action to venues over their use.
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Post by fiyerorocher on Nov 17, 2021 10:43:39 GMT
Do you honestly think the 'press' will care...? Hopefully they spend more time talking about what sounds like a great show than they do the set up of the toilets! Have you not seen how much coverage this issue has gotten recently. Public buildings have been ordered by the government to build single sex toilets and the ECHR has threatened legal action to venues over their use. I think we read very different newspapers. As I said - hopefully this show does get lots of press, but for the production itself. It sounds like a wonderfully immersive production. I'd love to see a similarly high level of theming going into some other shows. The kind of blending of stage and auditorium that Phantom could only dream of! That's what deserves press attention.
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Post by hairspray57 on Nov 17, 2021 10:47:54 GMT
Have you not seen how much coverage this issue has gotten recently. Public buildings have been ordered by the government to build single sex toilets and the ECHR has threatened legal action to venues over their use. I think we read very different newspapers. As I said - hopefully this show does get lots of press, but for the production itself. It sounds like a wonderfully immersive production. I'd love to see a similarly high level of theming going into some other shows. The kind of blending of stage and auditorium that Phantom could only dream of! That's what deserves press attention. Sadly in the present climate it may well overshadow the show.
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Post by shambles on Nov 17, 2021 10:49:25 GMT
No one's going to be talking about toilets which are most of the time goin to have a lot of people queuing to get in, at a sold-out show. It's just something you've latched onto. And I say this as a woman.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 17, 2021 11:06:09 GMT
I think it's being slightly over-dramatised with 'gaps between stalls'. This is not America - many public toilets here don't even have gaps above and below the doors. All this sounds to me like a great way to reduce the ridiculous queues for the women's toilets at theatres while men have no queue at all. I do not see a problem, nor do I think this set up sounds in any way unsafe. And all this talk is probably better suited to the specific theatre toilets thread in the general section, as it really has no bearing on the production itself. They do have gaps! It's a pretty standard thing in the UK with toilet blocks. Most have gaps above and below the doors and above and below the side partitions too.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 17, 2021 11:11:39 GMT
Posts relating to gender neutral toilets at The Kit Kat Club moved from Cabaret thread to here.
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Post by thebroadwayboy on Nov 17, 2021 11:31:12 GMT
I see you have an agenda with this. But with this topic there should be no agenda This is why people get annoyed. People always try and shut down the debate. Sorry I give a sh*t about the transgender rights. I think there a many people that just flush them down the drain. I really don't don't give a sh*t if the toilets are male , female or everyone. I wish this topic got wiped off the board. I think some are just taking the piss
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Post by cavocado on Nov 17, 2021 11:47:53 GMT
No one's going to be talking about toilets which are most of the time goin to have a lot of people queuing to get in, at a sold-out show. It's just something you've latched onto. And I say this as a woman. Previous experience of sexual assault and abuse making women feel anxious and scared about mixed facilities isn't "just something you've latched onto". Of course there are some women who are fine with mixed toilets, and that's great. But the general principle with inclusion is that you talk to the people who are affected by being excluded, not the ones who aren't bothered or don't have relevant experience.
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Post by Jon on Nov 17, 2021 11:50:11 GMT
No one's going to be talking about toilets which are most of the time goin to have a lot of people queuing to get in, at a sold-out show. It's just something you've latched onto. And I say this as a woman. Hairspray57 does have a habit of doom mongering, the idea that theatres will be closed down because of gender neutral toilets is the daftest things I’ve read all year.
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Post by crowblack on Nov 17, 2021 12:07:38 GMT
This is why people get annoyed. People always try and shut down the debate. Sorry I give a sh*t about the transgender rights. I think there a many people that just flush them down the drain. I really don't don't give a sh*t if the toilets are male , female or everyone. I wish this topic got wiped off the board. I think some are just taking the piss Why do you think single sex spaces exist in the first place? It's for the safety, privacy and dignity of women. Women are physically smaller than men and are vulnerable in un-CCTV covered public spaces where we get undressed. If trans people feel unsafe using men's toilets, then the answer is not to open up the women's toilets to men, because that exposes even more people to risk from men. And yes, I know it's 'not all men', but it is SOME men, including Guardian-reading, left-leaning, middle-class men who have had very powerful jobs in theatre, and they don't have signs on their foreheads saying 'warning: predator'. Ask for additional 'neutral' toilet spaces for those who feel comfortable with that, but don't make women lose our safe spaces.
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Post by shambles on Nov 17, 2021 12:12:25 GMT
No one's going to be talking about toilets which are most of the time goin to have a lot of people queuing to get in, at a sold-out show. It's just something you've latched onto. And I say this as a woman. Previous experience of sexual assault and abuse making women feel anxious and scared about mixed facilities isn't "just something you've latched onto". Of course there are some women who are fine with mixed toilets, and that's great. But the general principle with inclusion is that you talk to the people who are affected by being excluded, not the ones who aren't bothered or don't have relevant experience. We can debate about toilet allocation on the whole separately. I'm very much torn on it. I'm just talking about this specific circumstance, and how it absolutely isn't going to be an issue an hairspray keeps making up about it.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Nov 17, 2021 12:13:18 GMT
What exactly is the set up at the Playhouse then? A shared room with all cubicles or a shared room with urinals and cubicles?
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