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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 26, 2020 11:52:40 GMT
First sentence says why I feel it is not as cut and dried as you are previously saying. It's not anti-Semitic to attack Israel
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 26, 2020 12:03:20 GMT
First sentence says why I feel it is not as cut and dried as you are previously saying. It's not anti-Semitic to attack Israel See it is the jump from a to b that is so hard to prove Maxine Peake was being anti-Semitic in Sara Gibbs piece and then to start talking about continued far right attacks over many years. Still not with Maxine Peake being anti-Semitic. Pretty sure she was talking about the Israeli state. Going onto the second links...
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 26, 2020 12:04:49 GMT
The thing is, RLB read the article, right? She saw that line and either agreed with it or thought it so insignificant that she didn't need to caveat her tweet when posting that Maxine Peake was a “diamond”. Whatever she felt, that was a mistake, given her history and the recent history of the party. She should have known better. She was asked to remove the tweet and apologise. She chose not to remove the tweet, and no apology featured in her follow up tweet, some half-arsed “it wasn’t intended to be an endorsement of all aspects of the article”. That's it. And not good enough. At this point, her intent is clear. Starmer has issued a zero-tolerance policy on anti-semitism. With, as I say, RLB's history and the party history, to not even acknowledge or apologise when she was given the chance? She made her bed. Starmer did what he had to do. What else was he supposed to do? We may not be used to it currently - but he showed real leadership. I never said I excuse her, but that I accepted her explanation. The article in question is so much more than that one comment within it - a comment the journalist confirms in the very next sentence is incorrect. I don’t disagree with anything that has happened as a result of all this and as I said, I think Starmer has turned this into an absolute win for himself politically - got rid of a Corbynist, his biggest competition to his leadership and shown the world he meant business when it comes to anti-Seminism. I don’t fault him at all. All I said in my original post is that I believe Rebecca’s explanation for re-tweeting the article. I stand by that and have since said that I don’t believe Maxine or Rebecca acted with any sort of malice and it was simply a case of using an incorrect fact - a fact confirmed as incorrect by the journalist in very next sentence at the point of publication. Of course it wasn’t acceptable to some users here that I accept Rebecca’s explanation which is a shame, because I’m actually not a fan of her at all. But what is her explanation, exactly? She retweeted the article but later clarified that “it wasn't intended to be an endorsement of all aspects of the article”? Is that it? After 4 years of the Labour Party being embroiled in anti-semitism rows and RLB's previous history of being blind to anti-Semitic comments, that is why I don't buy it at all. Her thread explains how she was asked to remove the tweets but she decided not to. This article delves a little deeper into RLB's behavior on this issue and Starmer's actions: www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-rebecca-long-bailey_uk_5ef50f91c5b6acab283efcb2?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAANzG1vxVIT89zoek4kyeMv3Jp8GXEbwpHX5IXOj9NK7FzA0BY1rjurm2zfiWFmUQ5csoHHYwHoac8giiHyXPpTXTYXv8welQSWsyZNzFNJ3TrNCQvZkJfPGJd4QyeR19mqLcIs-Va6lK562ovDCwN1wHrUpBemzJSs3WLkr0UT-DI completely understand and appreciate that you agree with the actions taken and I completely understand you are not disputing the issue at all, but from where I’m standing I just can't buy her “explanation”. She was either ignorant to it or believed it. Neither is good enough for a politician. On the point of the Independent correcting the false statement at the point of publication, I’m afraid that just isn't true. The next sentence of the original article, they reference a “2016 Amnesty International report” (I’ve posted a thread above why that article should not be used an as official source), but once the criticism emerged, it was swiftly removed to whatever it says now about no tactic about putting pressure on the neck or airway.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 26, 2020 12:10:23 GMT
First sentence says why I feel it is not as cut and dried as you are previously saying. It's not anti-Semitic to attack Israel But that's the thing. People think they're making an argument with that statement. You're not. No one is saying attacking Israel is anti-Semitic (one of the threads I posted which you will get to explains this). Posting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Israeli police teaching US police the specific techniques used to murder George Floyd, whilst playing on anti-Semitic tropes that Jews are to blame for disasters, but using the Israeli police as a scapegoat to perpetuate those rumors is not ok. These things are too important to just throw into an article and be wrong about and just say “oops, sorry”. Retweeting those articles with no caveat or apology is also not ok.
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2020 12:14:40 GMT
Meanwhile, on whatever planet these people live on:
It's as if certain members of the Labour Party - hi, Jeremy! - are grimly determined NOT to learn anything from the last four or five years.
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 26, 2020 12:17:07 GMT
First sentence says why I feel it is not as cut and dried as you are previously saying. It's not anti-Semitic to attack Israel But that's the thing. People think they're making an argument with that statement. You're not. No one is saying attacking Israel is anti-Semitic (one of the threads I posted which you will get to explains this). Posting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Israeli police teaching US police the specific techniques used to murder George Floyd, whilst playing on anti-Semitic tropes that Jews are to blame for disasters, but using the Israeli police as a scapegoat to perpetuate those rumors is not ok. These things are too important to just throw into an article and be wrong about and just say “oops, sorry”. Retweeting those articles with no caveat or apology is also not ok. Didn't like the second link, that was why article was false. I want why it is anti-Semitic, looking forward to the third article. Never said I would have used that article, used it in the piece she wrote or of any need to bring Israel into that discussion. But Sarah Gibbs uses that phrase. It's really not anti-Semitic to attack Israel. Anyway, onto post 3 now. Think this is the one I want.
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 26, 2020 12:23:16 GMT
But that's the thing. People think they're making an argument with that statement. You're not. No one is saying attacking Israel is anti-Semitic (one of the threads I posted which you will get to explains this). Posting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Israeli police teaching US police the specific techniques used to murder George Floyd, whilst playing on anti-Semitic tropes that Jews are to blame for disasters, but using the Israeli police as a scapegoat to perpetuate those rumors is not ok. These things are too important to just throw into an article and be wrong about and just say “oops, sorry”. Retweeting those articles with no caveat or apology is also not ok. Didn't like the second link, that was why article was false. I want why it is anti-Semitic, looking forward to the third article. Never said I would have used that article, used it in the piece she wrote or of any need to bring Israel into that discussion. But Sarah Gibbs uses that phrase. It's really not anti-Semitic to attack Israel. Anyway, onto post 3 now. Think this is the one I want. I hope that thread on the 2016 Amnesty article helps. May I suggest this paragraph from the second link which you didn’t like, really does get to the nub of the anti-semitism point: “Those who find this allegation anti-Semitic do not dispute that international police forces share training in a manner of deep concern to international human rights watchdogs. What they do object to is the singling out of Israel in this allegation, when there is nothing to suggest that Israel played any greater part in Floyd’s death than the many other countries that share training with the US, and which also use aggressive restraining techniques. Why is the tragic killing of a black man at the hands of the police, in a country with a long history of racial discrimination and excessive force in policing, now being blamed on the world’s only Jewish-majority state, they ask?”
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Post by kathryn on Jun 26, 2020 12:25:54 GMT
I stand by that and have since said that I don’t believe Maxine or Rebecca acted with any sort of malice and it was simply a case of using an incorrect fact - a fact confirmed as incorrect by the journalist in very next sentence at the point of publication. Has @kevinuk got me on ignore? :-( I explained that this was not the case just before he posted this. There's handy before/after screenshots in this tweet You can see how the original version of the article gives credence to the conspiracy theory despite including a denial 'Though a spokesperson...denied this, ....Amnesty International said that....'. Conspiracy theorism relies on official denials being dismissed and a belief that the organisation at the centre of a conspiracy is lying to cover up the truth. The second version is the one that actually states that her statement is incorrect, and removed any suggestion that the spokesperson is not telling the truth.
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Post by NeilVHughes on Jun 26, 2020 12:41:54 GMT
‘there is nothing to suggest that Israel played any greater part in Floyd’s death than the many other countries that share training with the US” That is the nub of the issue, many Countries share ‘best’ Policing methods and singling out Israel is why Starmer was right to act decisively. Singling out Israel perpetuates the ant-Semitic trope of the malign Jewish influence / conspiracy in World affairs with the subtext of being particularly severe in light of the policing methods used in Palestine, quoting the training which took place in Scotland would not have the same inference. www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/nyregion/us-police-leaders-visiting-scotland-get-lessons-on-avoiding-deadly-force.htmlThere are many areas where the State of Israel can rightly be criticised this is not one of them, poor judgement by both parties for which Maxine now knowing the truth has apologised and Rebecca has still to do. It is possible to criticise the State of Israel in the Labour Party if done properly. www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/06/26/long-bailey-sacking-shows-starmer-is-serious-about-winning
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Post by basdfg on Jun 26, 2020 13:54:13 GMT
Quite a lot of people in this debate manage to justify the unjustifiable if it's done by the side they support.
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2020 13:59:05 GMT
Quite a lot of people in this debate manage to justify the unjustifiable if it's done by the side they support.
That's a rather offensive assertion. Would you like to try to back it up with actual evidence?
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Post by basdfg on Jun 26, 2020 14:05:38 GMT
Quite a lot of people in this debate manage to justify the unjustifiable if it's done by the side they support.
That's a rather offensive assertion. Would you like to try to back it up with actual evidence?
Well plenty of people manage to support Anexation when on most other issues they would not support flagrant breaches of international law equally many seek to minimise the actions of hamas.
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2020 14:14:29 GMT
That's a rather offensive assertion. Would you like to try to back it up with actual evidence?
Well plenty of people manage to support Anexation when on most other issues they would not support flagrant breaches of international law equally many seek to minimise the actions of hamas.
Has anybody in this conversation done either of those things?
I'll give you a hint: the answer is 'no', and you owe us all an apology.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 14:45:13 GMT
I think it’s quite possible basdfg meant ”in this debate” to take in the general political debate around anti-Semitism - not just this one in particular!
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2020 15:21:23 GMT
I think it’s quite possible basdfg meant ”in this debate” to take in the general political debate around anti-Semitism - not just this one in particular! If that's the case, perhaps basdfg might have chosen his/her words a little more carefully.
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Post by sf on Jun 26, 2020 19:47:20 GMT
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Post by theatremadness on Jun 26, 2020 22:03:10 GMT
I came here to post this article! So thank you for doing so - I agree, it's excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2020 23:57:33 GMT
I think it’s quite possible basdfg meant ”in this debate” to take in the general political debate around anti-Semitism - not just this one in particular! If that's the case, perhaps basdfg might have chosen his/her words a little more carefully.
I have no idea if this applies to basdfg or not, but worth bearing in mind plenty of people on here don’t have English as a first language. Also, typing a quick heartfelt response can mean you’re less careful with language. It makes sense to you when you type it, but might not always to others...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2020 3:45:24 GMT
I think what has happened goes in circles. A class of person lets say women get treated like sh*t . Then the women say no they do not want to be treated like sh*t. Then they do three waves to ensure they get equal rights. The man thinks this is enough. But still denies them jobs because they still do not fell they are equal. The male starts to feel this is an attack on him and the business. Then then the women starts trying to make it law. The women makes it law. The man thinks this is awful. Then still attacks women.
Women then start to have it easier but not equal. A black man wants to have a better life and gets treated like sh*t . They start trying to get more rights. Women says yes to some . But still denies them jobs . The women feels this is an attack on her and the business. The the black man starts to make it law. The women thinks this is awful. And still attacks black man.
They both get more attacked until something really bad happens and then they use it as an excuse to damage property. The the white man says he has won as none of the black man or white women have succeed to get equality. But none have succeed , everyone looses, everyone gets hurt. Instead of working together we fight.
And the issue that i have I am in the middle as a disabled person I get nothing when I defend them . I still get treated like one. If the black person and women start saying no together then the world will be a better place.
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Post by joem on Jun 27, 2020 19:50:17 GMT
Well done Keir Starmer. People who pose as anti-racist should know better than to adopt other forms of bigotry.
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Post by basdfg on Jun 28, 2020 13:46:51 GMT
I see the official twitter feed of BLM UK has posted a tweet going on about criticism of Zionism being gagged - just why.
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