|
Post by d'James on Jun 18, 2017 12:49:10 GMT
Ultimately People need to think for themselves A bit longer term And we need to ask what levels and numbers of population Are sustainable and we can provide for to have a good quality of life Well this incident has probably removed close to 100 surplus people. Have some compassion. Really now is not the time. It's Parsley, what do you expect?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 13:06:15 GMT
Ultimately People need to think for themselves A bit longer term And we need to ask what levels and numbers of population Are sustainable and we can provide for to have a good quality of life Well this incident has probably removed close to 100 surplus people. Have some compassion. Really now is not the time. I think you have misinterpreted my comment My point was directed at the government Who pretend they can house everyone who requires council housing Perhaps if we have an honest and open discussion that we cannot afford Or choose not to spend money on things we pretend we are going to And be up front about it Then we can make progress And allow people a better quality of life Before such events happen
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 13:18:01 GMT
Parsley made a perfectly sensible remark in seeking to widen the debate beyond 'blame the government'. There is a lot of talk about rights these days and very little about responsibilities. Each individual needs to step up and start thinking about their life; the way they lead it; the freedom they want others to have to live possibly very different lives; where the compromises are to be found; where we might have to (shock! horror!) shell out for either our own desires, or those of others, to be affordable or workable. That burden can't just be borne by the top 5% of earners, I'm afraid.. So either we pay up more, or we use less resources. I'm not sure what's so terrible about raising that as a point for debate?
For what it's worth, I'm frankly astonished at the politicised reaction to this horrendous event. We've known about the divide between rich and poor for centuries. In particular, the divide in prosperous cities. This isn't peculiar to London. Go to pretty much any European city and you'll see the same. So why the sudden maiden-aunt shocked reaction to what this fire has thrown into relief? We're all complicit. Perhaps that's why we're so angry?
Edited to add: Oops sorry Parsley, messages crossed!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 14:11:07 GMT
Parsley made a perfectly sensible remark in seeking to widen the debate beyond 'blame the government'. There is a lot of talk about rights these days and very little about responsibilities. Each individual needs to step up and start thinking about their life; the way they lead it; the freedom they want others to have to live possibly very different lives; where the compromises are to be found; where we might have to (shock! horror!) shell out for either our own desires, or those of others, to be affordable or workable. That burden can't just be borne by the top 5% of earners, I'm afraid.. So either we pay up more, or we use less resources. I'm not sure what's so terrible about raising that as a point for debate? For what it's worth, I'm frankly astonished at the politicised reaction to this horrendous event. We've known about the divide between rich and poor for centuries. In particular, the divide in prosperous cities. This isn't peculiar to London. Go to pretty much any European city and you'll see the same. So why the sudden maiden-aunt shocked reaction to what this fire has thrown into relief? We're all complicit. Perhaps that's why we're so angry? Edited to add: Oops sorry Parsley, messages crossed! But isn't it the case that in the last 10 years a vast amount of wealthy has been transposed from the poorest to the richest? The richest in society have been given tax breaks The richest in society need to pay a price now It's always amusing when well off people think the poor should get off their backside and sort out their lives. I say let's eat the rich and then distribute their wealthy back to the majority!
|
|
5,599 posts
|
Post by lynette on Jun 18, 2017 14:14:02 GMT
Prob with Kensington is that the 'divide ' is so visible. Often across streets!
|
|
894 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Jun 18, 2017 14:20:45 GMT
I see empathy and compassion have left the building again.
I don't understand how anyone can be so blinkered to not see why Parsley's blame the victim approach is distasteful at best. People in this tower formed an action group and warned of the dangers but weren't listened to, they knew it was a problem so why did no one in authority care. A council with a budget surplus couldn't be arsed to spend a bit more for safer materials. Yes the gap between rich and poor is no surprise but people are shocked that this has shown there is such a gulf that it's got to the point where profits are more important that people's lives.
Yes maybe we do need to have bigger conversations but right here and right now the simple truth is people died when they didn't need to and it could have been prevented even within the resources and tax levels we currently have. As a country we were easily capable of preventing this tragedy. And yes all of us could have done more but decisions were made in local and national government that helped lead to this.
In a country where not wearing a red poppy is enough for you to be described unfit for office the bleating from the right about the needless deaths of many people being politicised is disgusting. I mean it's taken 4 or 5 days for the government to even realise someone needs to go in there and help organise things. Initially the response was purely driven by local and charity organisations and people going down there themselves. Hmmm that sounds like people helping themselves, I thought no one was doing anything like that!
|
|
4,047 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Jun 18, 2017 14:46:47 GMT
Housing is always political. Fire safety services are always political. Regulation is always political. The way that councils administer their duties is always political. The needless deaths of so many people due to the failures of all those things is definitely political. To claim dismay about this tragedy being 'politicised' is nonsensical.
This is the truth of it: keeping your citizens safe, secure, and healthy so that they can live productive lives is the very heart of politics. That it is what it is for. That is the everyday job of politics. When something like this happens it is because politics on multiple levels has failed. Scrutiny of how and why it failed is an absolute necessity.
|
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 18, 2017 15:04:23 GMT
If Theresa hadn't turned into the 'Maybot' again and a inquest is called instead of an enquiry then government politics wouldn't been drawn in.
|
|
2,706 posts
|
Post by Cardinal Pirelli on Jun 18, 2017 15:33:44 GMT
The fact that a number of these flats were being rented for upwards of £400 per week not set off any alarm bells.Look at the people who died. People with good jobs, people with a fair degree of money. What world do you have to be in to suggest these people are taking and not paying back?
Trying to pin blame on the consumer is asinine, the blame necessarily goes higher, with the people who are providing such a shoddy service, at all levels. In the short term they need to be brought to book but there are more long term issues.
This is a personal view but I think that the problem is actually much, much bigger. It comes down to the way that work and society is currently structured. That the concentration of a workforce into small areas and the pressure that creates on space, services and so on is unsustainable. A more sustainable society needs to be more decentralised, with people being able to work near affordable homes in areas with competent transport structures. Of course, such a massive project would never attract political favour as it is too long term, too investment heavy to be achievable in a five year term and too easily characterised as utopian.
With the challenges we face in terms of economy, climate, energy and areas of overpopulation, we've got to start thinking radically, however. I don't think it's the same as was suggested above regarding people needing to change as individuals, the reason being that they cannot move to jobs and housing that does not exist. It is down to government to provide and maintain the infrastructure that allows people to do so. Government leads, that is what they are (supposedly) for.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 15:39:04 GMT
I see empathy and compassion have left the building again. I don't understand how anyone can be so blinkered to not see why Parsley's blame the victim approach is distasteful at best. People in this tower formed an action group and warned of the dangers but weren't listened to, they knew it was a problem so why did no one in authority care. A council with a budget surplus couldn't be arsed to spend a bit more for safer materials. Yes the gap between rich and poor is no surprise but people are shocked that this has shown there is such a gulf that it's got to the point where profits are more important that people's lives. Yes maybe we do need to have bigger conversations but right here and right now the simple truth is people died when they didn't need to and it could have been prevented even within the resources and tax levels we currently have. As a country we were easily capable of preventing this tragedy. And yes all of us could have done more but decisions were made in local and national government that helped lead to this. In a country where not wearing a red poppy is enough for you to be described unfit for office the bleating from the right about the needless deaths of many people being politicised is disgusting. I mean it's taken 4 or 5 days for the government to even realise someone needs to go in there and help organise things. Initially the response was purely driven by local and charity organisations and people going down there themselves. Hmmm that sounds like people helping themselves, I thought no one was doing anything like that! Where did Parsley blame the victim in that statement?! S/he didn't, that was my entire point, and yet again people have misinterpreted. Sorry, but I really do give up trying to have a reasoned debate round here.
|
|
894 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Jun 18, 2017 15:51:31 GMT
I see empathy and compassion have left the building again. I don't understand how anyone can be so blinkered to not see why Parsley's blame the victim approach is distasteful at best. People in this tower formed an action group and warned of the dangers but weren't listened to, they knew it was a problem so why did no one in authority care. A council with a budget surplus couldn't be arsed to spend a bit more for safer materials. Yes the gap between rich and poor is no surprise but people are shocked that this has shown there is such a gulf that it's got to the point where profits are more important that people's lives. Yes maybe we do need to have bigger conversations but right here and right now the simple truth is people died when they didn't need to and it could have been prevented even within the resources and tax levels we currently have. As a country we were easily capable of preventing this tragedy. And yes all of us could have done more but decisions were made in local and national government that helped lead to this. In a country where not wearing a red poppy is enough for you to be described unfit for office the bleating from the right about the needless deaths of many people being politicised is disgusting. I mean it's taken 4 or 5 days for the government to even realise someone needs to go in there and help organise things. Initially the response was purely driven by local and charity organisations and people going down there themselves. Hmmm that sounds like people helping themselves, I thought no one was doing anything like that! Where did Parsley blame the victim in that statement?! S/he didn't, that was my entire point, and yet again people have misinterpreted. Sorry, but I really do give up trying to have a reasoned debate round here. Earlier he attacked the guy who's fridge apparently exploded. So it's no surprise people reacted badly when he starts going on about personal responsibility given that context. He's since claimed he's talking about the government but his point didn't read like that. And for me i don't really see the point of this relentless focus on people taking more responsibility and a wider debate around resource at a time when many people have died from something easily preventable within our current system. He wants an open and honest debate on what we can afford but this could have easily been afforded.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:00:19 GMT
.
|
|
894 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Jun 18, 2017 16:09:41 GMT
Complete deflection again I see.
People took responsibility, they formed an action group, they warned the authorities and they were ignored.
Other countries have banned the materials involved and put in place more stringent regulations about fire safety.
The question is why couldn't we do this. Why have attempts to change things since the last tower block fire gone nowhere, why have the government recently watered down regulation over sprinklers in schools.
I've already said we should all look at the choices we make but both local and national government have a lot of questions to answer.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:13:28 GMT
.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:19:34 GMT
.
|
|
2,206 posts
|
Post by theglenbucklaird on Jun 18, 2017 18:16:58 GMT
Good edit.
Went down yesterday and I literally couldn't do anything over than stick cash in the box. One thing to take from this is the amount of people that turned up to lend a hand in a crisis, again. But what was needed was organisation, and it wasn't there.
|
|
230 posts
|
Post by hal9000 on Jun 19, 2017 8:41:55 GMT
My experience is that local government is by far the most corrupt organisation I have come across. They are liars, nepotistic, blackmailer, backscratchers and often have little clue about town planning.
|
|
230 posts
|
Post by hal9000 on Jun 19, 2017 8:50:59 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 8:55:13 GMT
Good edit.
Went down yesterday and I literally couldn't do anything over than stick cash in the box. One thing to take from this is the amount of people that turned up to lend a hand in a crisis, again. But what was needed was organisation, and it wasn't there.
There was a lady commenting on Robert Peston's show yesterday (I was in the gym 'reading' the show so didn't fully catch who she was) who was talking about how there are volunteers there every day but any "official" people sent by various departments are different every day, so the minute there was any organisation it's lost bringing them up to speed the next day as they change over. Such a shambolic response. Volunteers are clearly working marvels but there's only so much they can do.
Minute's silence at 11am today for anyone who has missed that info.
|
|
894 posts
|
Post by vdcni on Jun 19, 2017 9:28:10 GMT
There are reports that Ealing Council, along with central government have had to come in to get things on track. It does suggest Kensington just didn't have the capability to manage this at all, possibly as their priority is the richer parts of the borough.
|
|
2,764 posts
|
Post by daniel on Jun 19, 2017 17:55:57 GMT
Benefit concert this Sunday at the Trafalgar Studios. All seats £45, proceeds to the victims fund.
|
|
230 posts
|
Post by hal9000 on Jun 20, 2017 14:40:44 GMT
For a moment I thought the lady on the left was Angelina Jolie!
|
|
5,599 posts
|
Post by lynette on Jun 20, 2017 15:43:30 GMT
Seeing interesting qs on t'internet. I'm amazed at the lack of coordination in the response, not the firefighters or ambulances who seems sadly to be geared up for this kind of thing like never before but the next level or layer, like the working out of who was in the flats and where people were and so on and now finding the accommodation and making sure they all have immediate needs. Didn't anyone in the council have a list of the people in their flats and isn't there a list of who lives where on council data bases? And is there a civil disaster plan? Designated points of gathering, named people for contact, phone numbers broadcast and posted up, charities co ordinated for emergencies? And hotels and b/bs already in the plan so they can free up rooms straightaway? Then food supplies and I think mobile phones distributed with numbers for help already in and charged up. Can't we store this stuff?
What do I know? I'm just surprised at the chaos from the civic authorities.
Honestly one day we are all gonna need this... whatif, eh?
|
|
|
Post by Honoured Guest on Jun 20, 2017 16:35:30 GMT
In the 1980s, many people always carried a printed card: IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY, NOT TO BE VISITED BY MARGARET THATCHER.
There's little point in bothering with an equivalent card today, with Theresa May.
|
|
270 posts
Member is Online
|
Post by littlesally on Jun 25, 2017 17:01:36 GMT
Spare stalls ticket for the fundraiser tonight if anyone is looking? Just a donation to the fund.
|
|
4,047 posts
|
Post by kathryn on Jun 27, 2017 12:57:25 GMT
At the fundraiser Sunday night the locals there were saying it's like something out of a sci-fi movie. Like a giant alien skull or something.
|
|
4,631 posts
|
Post by Phantom of London on Jun 27, 2017 22:25:35 GMT
I went past it on the tube to Hammersmith on Sunday. I cannot describe the feeling beyond "Oh, those poor people." What you can see on TV and in photos is NOTHING compared to seeing it in real life. From the tube, you could not tell it was a tower block. It is a sort of gigantic black tooth. Satanic black, devil black, death black, unredeemable black. There are just holes. Not window shaped, just holes, with blackness beyond those. I pray for all involved. A colleague of mine had to go down and check the tracks, that everything was alright. I naturally asked him "what was it like"? He looked at me said nothing and just shook his head, I knew not to ask anything further. More on the news I hear about this, the more it reminds me of 'All My Sons.'
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 0:44:26 GMT
I've still not figured out why when there was the anger and confusion about the lack of support for the victims why the Army wasn't called in to help organize the relief effort. They would have been bodies on the ground, they can respond quickly, can work under pressure etc often when there are problems abroad we see our troops helping with relief work.
Surely they could have got a couple of units from say Woolwich barracks to help given the emergency services were overstretched.
|
|
617 posts
|
Post by loureviews on Jun 28, 2017 9:22:50 GMT
At Wood Lane station the other day. The TV pictures don't prepare you for how awful it is to see the building so close. I can see it will take a long time to check for and retrieve all those poor souls who didn't make it.
|
|