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Post by cezbear on Oct 19, 2022 10:05:32 GMT
Wasn't sure where to post this so have started my own thread as it's something I've seen on Twitter a couple of times and bugs me a bit. What do you make of performers complaining when audience members tweet them complimenting their performance, but they weren't actually on? The example I'm currently thinking of included a reminder that not all black performers look the same, and to check the castboards. This has bugged me a lot, for a few reasons: 1. Often in my experience, for touring productions there are no castboards, or they're not correct. Asking FOH who's on is an absolute waste of time.
2. Not everyone buys a program. 3. If there's no castboard how on earth is the audience at the back of the circle, for example, supposed to know the alternate or understudy is on?
I say all this as someone who always wants to know who they're seeing but I have to go between castboards (if there at all), Twitter, looking up the cast pics online, just to be sure of this. Your average audience member isn't doing all that. I don't know why anyone would think it's race related, I couldn't tell you which performer of any race whatsoever in any show was on if I didn't have a castboard and wasn't sat up close.
I'm happy for someone to tell me what I'm missing though, but I am getting a bit weary of the constant complaining about audiences from some performers lately. Yes I know, I need to get off Twitter (but then how would I know who I'm seeing!).
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Post by LaLuPone on Oct 19, 2022 10:11:28 GMT
I agree with you 100%, it’s really not got anything to do with race. Seeing as the lead, alternate, understudy, whatever often all wear the exact same costume and wigs, you’re not going to be able to tell the difference unless you’re a superfan and/or sat really close. I don’t doubt that these performers have experienced racism in their careers and lives but this is really not race-motivated or race-specific, I’m sure it happens to white performers a lot as well.
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Post by Dr Tom on Oct 19, 2022 10:26:16 GMT
The big fault here sadly is that theatres make it so difficult to tell who is performing. Many theatres don't have cast boards or advertise understudies/swings being on, especially in smaller roles. Then there are the theatres that do have a cast board, but don't update it.
This isn't limited to performers of any particular ethnicity.
If I'm not sat in the front stalls, I find it very hard to work out who is on and this is often with shows where I've seen many of the cast before. Then there have been times I know I'm not seeing the advertised star, but I just can't match any of the photos to the covers and there's no information in the theatre or online. It doesn't always help that sometimes people use older headshots, or are very concealed by wigs and make up.
A very tough one, where you have audience members wanting to complement the people they think they've seen and there's an absence of other information.
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Post by viserys on Oct 19, 2022 10:27:58 GMT
Absolutely, I just wrote a fairly furious mail to the social media team of Moulin Rouge here in Cologne/Germany. Very first preview yesterday, theatre completely packed (for the first time in ages) and stunningly overhauled for the show. It being the very first preview, I of course expected the full first cast. Only this morning I heard from a fellow fan that we had in fact seen the alternate Satine. Both ladies look fairly similar and wear exactly the same wig, so even from Row 11 in the stalls (well more like Row 15-16 since the Can Can tables are in front of those) I couldn't have told it was the other one. I think it's absolutely unfair to her that there was virtually NO notice of this (apparently there was a tiny A4 sheet of paper by the box office window which the other fan's companion had spotted) and it's up to the production to have a very visible big cast board somewhere at a prominent location. Oh and since the question of race came up - both these ladies are white, one German, one Italian. I would have felt foolish if I had written to the first cast to compliment her on her performance, but I would also have been angry if she then complained about ME. I feel it's really not the audience's fault most of the time, but up to the production to inform people. PS: While I've been typing this, I received a very bland "thank you for your feedback" responde from the social media team.  |
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Post by cezbear on Oct 19, 2022 12:11:28 GMT
Absolutely, I just wrote a fairly furious mail to the social media team of Moulin Rouge here in Cologne/Germany. Very first preview yesterday, theatre completely packed (for the first time in ages) and stunningly overhauled for the show. It being the very first preview, I of course expected the full first cast. Only this morning I heard from a fellow fan that we had in fact seen the alternate Satine. Both ladies look fairly similar and wear exactly the same wig, so even from Row 11 in the stalls (well more like Row 15-16 since the Can Can tables are in front of those) I couldn't have told it was the other one. I think it's absolutely unfair to her that there was virtually NO notice of this (apparently there was a tiny A4 sheet of paper by the box office window which the other fan's companion had spotted) and it's up to the production to have a very visible big cast board somewhere at a prominent location. Oh and since the question of race came up - both these ladies are white, one German, one Italian. I would have felt foolish if I had written to the first cast to compliment her on her performance, but I would also have been angry if she then complained about ME. I feel it's really not the audience's fault most of the time, but up to the production to inform people. PS: While I've been typing this, I received a very bland "thank you for your feedback" responde from the social media team. This part... if I complimented a cast member and they tweeted to complain about it because it was actually someone else they saw, I'd be absolutely mortified. Such a graceless thing to do when someone is simply trying to show appreciation.
Also, thinking about it, the 'new' style castboards that just list the roles/performers rather than just the covers can be confusing. I don't dislike it but I think the Wicked approach of having both a full board showing everyone on, and a separate screen showing just the 'at this performance' covers makes it a little clearer.
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Post by kathryn on Oct 19, 2022 12:59:28 GMT
The thing is, most people’s actual ability to recognise people they don’t personally *know* is pretty bad. That’s why police identity parades have a line of people who look very similar that the witness must pick from.
Add costumes/wigs and stage lighting to that and it is absolutely possible to confuse one person for another - regardless of things like race.
And even very famous actors regularly get confused with other very famous actors! It’s a thing they all talk about! They sign each other’s autographs all the time!!
So this really should be accepted as just par for the course. If they know who they have been confused for and can direct the compliment to the correct person, that’s the best way of pointing out the mistake without making people feel bad for having tried to be nice to them.
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Post by inthenose on Oct 19, 2022 13:22:13 GMT
Particularly in musical theatre, where the whole point of an understudy in most “big productions” is that they fit seamlessly into the role, hopefully without the audience even noticing they aren’t seeing the principal.
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Post by Jon on Oct 19, 2022 13:41:26 GMT
The thing is, most people’s actual ability to recognise people they don’t personally *know* is pretty bad. That’s why police identity parades have a line of people who look very similar that the witness must pick from. Add costumes/wigs and stage lighting to that and it is absolutely possible to confuse one person for another - regardless of things like race. And even very famous actors regularly get confused with other very famous actors! It’s a thing they all talk about! They sign each other’s autographs all the time!!
So this really should be accepted as just par for the course. If they know who they have been confused for and can direct the compliment to the correct person, that’s the best way of pointing out the mistake without making people feel bad for having tried to be nice to them. Jessica Chastain always get confused with Bryce Dallas Howard which is weird because they're not that similar looks wise, likewise with Liam Neeson and Ralph Fiennes although saying that Ron Howard did mistake Jessica Chastain for Bryce Dallas Howard so it can happen. |
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Post by Deal J on Oct 19, 2022 13:56:02 GMT
Two memories that always make me smile:
Following a performance of Sweeney Todd when it opened in Chichester, I overheard a lady saying she was upset that she hadn't been able to see Michael Ball as Sweeney (when in fact she had).
Again in Chichester, following a performance of Gypsy I overheard a lady saying she thought it was hilarious that "the stripper with the trumpet" (Mazeppa) had been played by a drag queen (when in fact she had seen Louise Gold in the role).
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Post by anxiousoctopus on Oct 19, 2022 14:17:47 GMT
I agree with you 100%, it’s really not got anything to do with race. Seeing as the lead, alternate, understudy, whatever often all wear the exact same costume and wigs, you’re not going to be able to tell the difference unless you’re a superfan and/or sat really close. I don’t doubt that these performers have experienced racism in their careers and lives but this is really not race-motivated or race-specific, I’m sure it happens to white performers a lot as well. While I’m sure people get white performers mixed up, there is a known (an ancient) issue both in and out of theatre of people assuming that non-white people (black people, Asian people, Indian people etc.) all look the same, because they see their ethnicity or skin colour without actually looking at their face. For anyone who is regularly confused for another performer in their company that doesn’t look like them except for having the same ethnicity, after awhile it’s going to get VERY irritating. I’ve seen performers comment that it happens daily. Wigs and costumes are obviously going to make people look more similar on stage, but with the known and very loaded issue of racism, mixing up people of colour is going to come across in the same way as getting them confused in the street. That being said, I wish that there would be a return to pre-show announcements of understudies at shows. I see so many people @ting shows asking who it was they saw in a role the night before because they missed the cast board |
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Post by cezbear on Oct 19, 2022 14:25:02 GMT
I agree with you 100%, it’s really not got anything to do with race. Seeing as the lead, alternate, understudy, whatever often all wear the exact same costume and wigs, you’re not going to be able to tell the difference unless you’re a superfan and/or sat really close. I don’t doubt that these performers have experienced racism in their careers and lives but this is really not race-motivated or race-specific, I’m sure it happens to white performers a lot as well. While I’m sure people get white performers mixed up, there is a known (an ancient) issue both in and out of theatre of people assuming that non-white people (black people, Asian people, Indian people etc.) all look the same, because they see their ethnicity or skin colour without actually looking at their face. For anyone who is regularly confused for another performer in their company that doesn’t look like them except for having the same ethnicity, after awhile it’s going to get VERY irritating. I’ve seen performers comment that it happens daily. Wigs and costumes are obviously going to make people look more similar on stage, but with the known and very loaded issue of racism, mixing up people of colour is going to come across in the same way as getting them confused in the street. That being said, I wish that there would be a return to pre-show announcements of understudies at shows. I see so many people @ting shows asking who it was they saw in a role the night before because they missed the cast board
See I know and appreciate it's a known issue, I just don't think that's what's happening here. I can understand how it might *feel* that way with that lived experience though. But if it's the same role, in the same costume, with the same wig, and not clearly stated to the audience, then Brenda in row P of the circle mistaking the lead for the cover is quite understandable IMO (sorry Brenda), regardless of whether or not they actually look alike (because why would the audience actually know what either performer looks like anyway?).
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Post by inthenose on Oct 19, 2022 14:27:10 GMT
Whilst this does happen, people usually just make honest mistakes which have nothing to do with prejudice - or a lack of social awareness when it comes to potentially causing offence with inadvertent racism.
It isn’t helpful when Twitter (it’s always Twitter, because Twitter is extraordinarily toxic) users leap on an honest mistake as being a deliberate attempt to cause offence.
In an attempt to create social justice, many people perceive themselves as victims and inflate very minor issues, not helped by echo chambers of people seeking things to be offended about on their favourite platform.
In short, genuine abuse needs to be called out. Honest mistakes - which is the majority of these understandings - absolutely don’t, but instead the theatres need to simply not be coy about the fact you’re seeing a replacement performer.
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Post by LaLuPone on Oct 19, 2022 14:28:42 GMT
I agree with you 100%, it’s really not got anything to do with race. Seeing as the lead, alternate, understudy, whatever often all wear the exact same costume and wigs, you’re not going to be able to tell the difference unless you’re a superfan and/or sat really close. I don’t doubt that these performers have experienced racism in their careers and lives but this is really not race-motivated or race-specific, I’m sure it happens to white performers a lot as well. While I’m sure people get white performers mixed up, there is a known (an ancient) issue both in and out of theatre of people assuming that non-white people (black people, Asian people, Indian people etc.) all look the same, because they see their ethnicity or skin colour without actually looking at their face. For anyone who is regularly confused for another performer in their company that doesn’t look like them except for having the same ethnicity, after awhile it’s going to get VERY irritating. I’ve seen performers comment that it happens daily. Wigs and costumes are obviously going to make people look more similar on stage, but with the known and very loaded issue of racism, mixing up people of colour is going to come across in the same way as getting them confused in the street. That being said, I wish that there would be a return to pre-show announcements of understudies at shows. I see so many people @ting shows asking who it was they saw in a role the night before because they missed the cast board Exactly as cezbear says, I know it’s a known issue but it’s not the case here, it’s clearly just happening because of distance from stage, similar costumes and wigs etc. |
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Post by longinthetooth on Oct 19, 2022 15:25:41 GMT
I recall being at more than one show where an understudy was announced for the main star, and said understudy was disgracefully booed. Is this why they no longer make announcements, I wonder?
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Post by fiyero on Oct 19, 2022 15:51:03 GMT
I have seen posts about this and do sympathise but shows need to do better! School of Rock on tour had no cast board (at Woking at least) and nobody was able to tell me who was on.
I am bad at recognising people I know, let alone people I don't know with wigs and makeup! Unfortunately this means I am more likely to not praise a performer at all lest I tag the wrong one.
This (amended) quote springs to mind when it comes to my quest for cast boards
“But today's cast's names were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Post by anxiousoctopus on Oct 19, 2022 17:50:32 GMT
I have seen posts about this and do sympathise but shows need to do better! School of Rock on tour had no cast board (at Woking at least) and nobody was able to tell me who was on. I am bad at recognising people I know, let alone people I don't know with wigs and makeup! Unfortunately this means I am more likely to not praise a performer at all lest I tag the wrong one. This (amended) quote springs to mind when it comes to my quest for cast boards “But today's cast's names were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Broadway really shows up the West End in that regard - they often have boards saying both the cast and ‘tonight the role of X will be played by’ boards (as well as paper slips inside playbills.) Some shows on the West End and touring (I.e. Back To The Future) have electronic cast boards that change to show that night’s cast, while others just have bits of A4 paper somewhere in the foyer or stairwell saying who the understudies are that day (Only Fools and Horses, Six UK Tour) and some shows don’t have any noticeable boards at all, so you have to play the ‘guess who’ with the cast photos in the program. I wish that these things were standardised… |
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Post by FairyGodmother on Oct 19, 2022 18:38:11 GMT
I know somebody who had to text his own sister during the interval to ask how he could recognise her in the second half.  |
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Post by Dawnstar on Oct 19, 2022 18:46:42 GMT
Then there have been times I know I'm not seeing the advertised star, but I just can't match any of the photos to the covers and there's no information in the theatre or online. It doesn't always help that sometimes people use older headshots, or are very concealed by wigs and make up. Also the arty sort of headshots where people's faces are only half visible due to lighting or angle are equally unhelpful. If actors want to give audiences a decent shot at recognising them then using a full face recent headshot would certainly help!
But really, unless a show is taking place in a theatre with only a hundred or so seats & with the performers all using their own hair & wearing minimal make-up, then I think mix ups are bound to occur. I've seen many Royal Ballet performances in the last few years and they, for those who don't know, have a permanent company, so I've seen the same dancers in a variety of roles. I can often completely fail to recognise people between different roles. A few days ago it took me several minutes to recognise a dancer who I like because she was wearing a brunette wig & she's naturally blonde. So if I struggle with people who I've seen on stage on many occasions then I would say for I, or anyone else, seeing a company of performers for the first time getting people mixed up would be entirely normal.
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Post by samuelwhiskers on Oct 19, 2022 21:53:11 GMT
Some shows on the West End and touring (I.e. Back To The Future) have electronic cast boards that change to show that night’s cast, while others just have bits of A4 paper somewhere in the foyer or stairwell saying who the understudies are that day (Only Fools and Horses, Six UK Tour) and some shows don’t have any noticeable boards at all, so you have to play the ‘guess who’ with the cast photos in the program. I wish that these things were standardised… The whole 'random bit of A4 paper" is just so cringe. I expect that from a fringe show above a pub. It's embarrassing when a West End or major touring venue can't at least try to look professional. |
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Post by kathryn on Oct 19, 2022 22:26:44 GMT
While I’m sure people get white performers mixed up, there is a known (an ancient) issue both in and out of theatre of people assuming that non-white people (black people, Asian people, Indian people etc.) all look the same, because they see their ethnicity or skin colour without actually looking at their face. White people do get mixed up - particularly by people from other races. It’s called Own-race Bias. www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.00208/fullThis research study looked specifically at the effect with internal face features only and with facial contour and hairline included, and found the latter helped recognition - which really does Suggest that things like wigs and character make-up will mess more with people’s ability to recognise people from other races than their own. |
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Post by sph on Oct 20, 2022 22:24:37 GMT
Most of the young white male members of front of house staff get asked to sign programmes as they exit stage door after their shift at Book of Mormon. Just saying.
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Post by Dr Tom on Oct 20, 2022 23:09:36 GMT
I remember once walking out of an event with someone who had just performed (I was film crew). I was asked to sign autographs, he wasn’t. Both of us white males, but you would never confuse us. I don’t understand the thought process, but people just aren’t always that observant.
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