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Post by Dawnstar on May 30, 2022 21:26:09 GMT
But many shows don't appeal to the older generation or even the younger generation. Look at the Book of Mormon for example, I love the show but it doesn't appeal to everyone because of the humour.
I feel there is a very big difference between potential audience members deciding it a show doesn't appeal to them on whatever grounds, whether generational or any number of other factors, and a cast member in a show apparently saying that they don't want particular demographics of people in the audience. Frankly, with the exception of audience members who behave so badly as to disrupt a performance, I would have thought cast members would welcome every audience member they can get, as when it comes down to it it's the audiences who are paying the cast's wages.
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3,432 posts
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Post by ceebee on May 30, 2022 21:36:26 GMT
Missed all this palaver... My one question on reading all this is: where are older balding white middle class cis fat men meant to go now?
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Post by sph on May 30, 2022 22:11:27 GMT
The thing is, the world is full of middle aged white men, they aren't just going to disappear because many of the new kids on the theatre block want them to.
Quentin Letts wrote a very unpleasant review. It was unnecessary to say the things he said in the manner that he did, and in doing so he has discredited his own opinion. No one is going to take his review seriously if it seems to be coming from a place of just trying to insult others, rather than carefully critiquing a production.
But, actors get tough reviews, actors have horrible things said about them by critics, audience members and even those in the industry working alongside them. It is an industry in which a thick skin has always been important, and knee-jerk reactions to everything negative said to you on twitter probably isn't going to help you or change the world. Maybe they want validation from followers, maybe they're just trying to whip up an angry mob to turn the tides back against the critics, but it comes across as petty and unprofessional.
I'm personally not a great fan of so-called "woke casting" or the idea that the best actor should always get the job, because I think there are so many other variables that go into whether or not a person suits a role. You could have the best actor in the world walk in to an audition room, but if a character is described as a 5'2 20-year-old and you have in front of you a 6'2 50-year-old then no matter how hard they nail the audition, they just aren't right for it. But you can say so without insulting them.
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Post by littlefluffychick on May 30, 2022 22:45:45 GMT
Isn’t it ironic that someone who feels unjustly judged (Isaac) by one blatantly out of touch individual (the irrelevant Mr. Letts) go on and imitates that very same behaviour themselves in a far more damaging manner?
Quite shocked by Isaac’s naivety and dare I say it stupidity in their petulant and potentially discriminatory response. I can’t get over the irony - a young musical performer championing inclusivity manages to publicly exclude a huge part of our society without a care in the world.
I’m middle aged, white, plus sized, with 2 life long medical conditions - would I qualify to deserve Isaac’s respect? And guess what, I might be middle aged and somewhat conventional but I’m raising 2 teenagers who live in the world Isaac has claimed as their own. My kids respect ALL strands of society, not just those that they or others might perceive to be a minority or unjustly treated. We all contribute in our own different ways.
Audiences pay for tickets, the revenue from the show pays for the wages of the performers. Nothing in this world is an entitlement, you have to earn it no matter who you are or what your job is.
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Post by stagebyte on May 30, 2022 23:25:14 GMT
Isn’t it ironic that someone who feels unjustly judged (Isaac) by one blatantly out of touch individual (the irrelevant Mr. Letts) go on and imitates that very same behaviour themselves in a far more damaging manner? Quite shocked by Isaac’s naivety and dare I say it stupidity in their petulant and potentially discriminatory response. I can’t get over the irony - a young musical performer championing inclusivity manages to publicly exclude a huge part of our society without a care in the world. I’m middle aged, white, plus sized, with 2 life long medical conditions - would I qualify to deserve Isaac’s respect? And guess what, I might be middle aged and somewhat conventional but I’m raising 2 teenagers who live in the world Isaac has claimed as their own. My kids respect ALL strands of society, not just those that they or others might perceive to be a minority or unjustly treated. We all contribute in our own different ways. Audiences pay for tickets, the revenue from the show pays for the wages of the performers. Nothing in this world is an entitlement, you have to earn it no matter who you are or what your job is. Standing ovation for this 👏👏👏👏 |
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Post by shady23 on May 31, 2022 6:10:40 GMT
Question Letts' comments were very predictable but those were his views and his views alone. Somehow bringing a whole group of other people into it is unfair.
Representation is very important and, of course, you want people of those demographics to have access to theatre but really the best way for people to be "seen" is to produce work that tells their story. This doesn't I am presuming as it is Legally Blonde!
I wouldn't have seen Letts' comments, as would not have many others had someone from the stage not tweeted them. "Someone has said something hurtful so I am going to report it to a bigger audience on twitter for more people to see..." why do that? Call them out by all means but why post those comments?!
What a mess.
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Post by mrbarnaby on May 31, 2022 6:40:32 GMT
I really just think that some shows should not invite him, he was never going to like this production and the casting.
I also read his review on Sunday and immediately thought who on earth allowed this to be printed?
Yes it’s got the show attention , and no such thing as bad publicity etc, but there are performers who have been hurt by his comments who are just doing their job.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 7:03:03 GMT
Especially considering the Open airs usual audience. Basically telling 80% of the paying audience we don't care and you're not important. Honestly do these younger performers have no social skills/common politeness. First cinderella and now legally blonde. I just don't understand why people are saying some things so publicly. If anything generations who have grown up with social media should be more savvy Isaac's behaviour has been deeply embarrassing for the show and harmful to their career. Pathetic, shocking hate speech If you think that is “hate speech”, you must live in a bubble. |
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Post by anthony on May 31, 2022 9:29:26 GMT
I really just think that some shows should not invite him, he was never going to like this production and the casting. I also read his review on Sunday and immediately thought who on earth allowed this to be printed? Yes it’s got the show attention , and no such thing as bad publicity etc, but there are performers who have been hurt by his comments who are just doing their job. If they're not open to criticism then they're probably in the wrong line of work (and to be honest, the same sentiments have been shared here since it opened!) Silencing voices = not the answer. On another that, that trailer looks DIRE. How did that make it past the press officer?!?!?! |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 10:15:40 GMT
Sometime I do wonder how some people work in an industry yet don't understand the economics of it. A basic understanding of the costs involved in putting on a show and how you extract money from different demographics would help a little. The problem of thinking we are only doing this show for XY or Z, is that if they can't financially sustain it then the show will fail. If someone only ever buys cheap rush tickets they need to realise that they are only seeing that show because other people have paid £90 for a ticket. The older cash rich and family audience are the financial backbone of a lot of these shows. The irony with legally blonde is that when I went most of the audience were middle aged. I imagine a lot of people don't understand the economics of the business they're in. The Cinderella cast sprang to mind |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 10:40:21 GMT
There was a piece about non-crime hate incidents [NCHIs] and how it could apply to comedians such as Ricky Gervais on DM online the other day and with all the battles over Stonewall idelogy there could be a lot of shooting oneself in the foot going on.
As regards Isaac and Quentin lets not forget Quentin is nearing 60 and has had a long career and has run-ins with performers before over reviews whilst Isaac is just starting out on his career so I can see here who has most to lose. I'd probably describe myself as being more like Quentin than Isaac age and demographic wise. But I didn't like the issue Quentin had with the RSC when they cast a black actor in a role a few years back.
Will some producers just not send certain reviewers invites to press nights due to issues like this. A producer can IMO send an invite to whoever they want but it runs the risk of a snubbed reviewer attending as a member of public and doing a review anyway.
With shows for certain age groups Legally Blonde film was 2001 and musical 2007 so a lot of the performers in current show were only children or even babies when the film was out. Saying certain shows or acts are only for one age group is always dangerous, they will have their primary appeal to that age group or demographic but others can enjoy it to. Should Abba only be listened to by people who bought their records over 40 years ago?
As regards the trailer I think the director/editor of that needs sacking as it does the show no favours it makes it look a cross between a school version of Beauty School Drop Out and A Mrs Slocombe tribute act. Also why why why show Courtney in the Playboy Bunny costume surely that is a reaction you hold back for the show. We know Courtney is a bigger girl than those previously cast as Elle and we'd be thinking how will they approach that scene, er appearing in that costume would create a reaction so why give a spoiler in the trailer!
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Post by lolalou on May 31, 2022 10:52:22 GMT
Yes LB has been around a long time Isaac. Ah, the arrogance of youth. ‘‘Twas ever thus.
Think the excitement has gone a little bit to his head but again he needs to wind his neck in a bit ‘speaking on behalf of the whole cast’ I’m sure they were quite capable of speaking for themselves if they wanted to. Quite sure he didn’t consult everyone before shooting from the lip.
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Post by cezbear on May 31, 2022 10:55:01 GMT
I really just think that some shows should not invite him, he was never going to like this production and the casting. I also read his review on Sunday and immediately thought who on earth allowed this to be printed? Yes it’s got the show attention , and no such thing as bad publicity etc, but there are performers who have been hurt by his comments who are just doing their job. If they're not open to criticism then they're probably in the wrong line of work (and to be honest, the same sentiments have been shared here since it opened!) Silencing voices = not the answer. On another that, that trailer looks DIRE. How did that make it past the press officer?!?!?! Well, probably because there's not much else they could have done, I'd say the trailer accurately represents the production. I caught the show last week and have been puzzling over my thoughts ever since. I'll be honest, I went in expecting to hate it, I've always loved LB and nothing I had heard or seen going in was filling me with confidence. It wasn't as bad as I'd feared (but that being my takeaway probably isn't much praise).
The set is awful and cheap. I could mostly ignore that but the lack of imagination in favour of 'make it all PINK, obviously!' was a bit grating. The costumes are horrendous, unforgivably so when it comes to Elle. The whole thing gives off a vibe of tacky. Some of the lyric/character changes are genuinely quite fun.
The casting is either really good or really bad... the Emmett, Callahan, Paulette were all excellent. Casting a black Emmett gives more depth and works brilliantly, however I suspect Moss lucked into that outcome rather than it coming from genuine insight, based on her other dubious decisions.
Vivienne and Warner were fine, didn't stand out either way.
Isaac simply can't sing the part unfortunately - there might have been an opportunity here if they wanted to cast this way to showcase someone who could pull it off and make it make sense. However what's actually happened is they've given critics of their casting perfect ammunition to say it doesn't work.
Courtney as Elle was a tricky one for me. I actually thought she did a great job, she brings a lot of sass and fun to the role and is clearly giving it her all. She sings it well enough and is a much better performer than I had expected. However - and it's not her fault - she just isn't Elle.The character as written simply doesn't fit her and there are multiple moments where I questioned certain lines that just don't make sense now. It didn't stop me enjoying her performance though, and despite everything I've just said it was actually a fun switch your brain off evening. I can't fault the huge energy on that stage, but it's also such a missed opportunity for me.
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Post by mrbarnaby on May 31, 2022 10:55:36 GMT
I really just think that some shows should not invite him, he was never going to like this production and the casting. I also read his review on Sunday and immediately thought who on earth allowed this to be printed? Yes it’s got the show attention , and no such thing as bad publicity etc, but there are performers who have been hurt by his comments who are just doing their job. If they're not open to criticism then they're probably in the wrong line of work (and to be honest, the same sentiments have been shared here since it opened!) Silencing voices = not the answer. On another that, that trailer looks DIRE. How did that make it past the press officer?!?!?! I do think basically calling them ‘fatties’ is not warranted criticism. Sure criticise bad singing or acting- but derogatory comments about appearance are a low blow. |
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Post by inthenose on May 31, 2022 11:00:59 GMT
If they're not open to criticism then they're probably in the wrong line of work (and to be honest, the same sentiments have been shared here since it opened!) Silencing voices = not the answer. On another that, that trailer looks DIRE. How did that make it past the press officer?!?!?! I do think basically calling them ‘fatties’ is not warranted criticism. Sure criticise bad singing or acting- but derogatory comments about appearance are a low blow. I absolutely agree. Isaac turning this into a campaign against everyone white, older and straight turns it from a retaliatory defensive act against one bigoted, predictable journalist into something else entirely. You must recognise how completely inappropriate Isaac's comments are, with no ifs buts or maybes. You must also accept that prejudice of any kind should be dealt with harshly. I really don't see how anyone can possibly defend Isaac's actions. |
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Post by lolalou on May 31, 2022 11:01:32 GMT
A lot of people have now said on this board that Isaac is not up to Margot vocally. His recent story affirmed he smashes his vocal harmony lines.
Having heard them I have to agree with posters here. I wonder if the director is strong enough to have ‘that conversation’ as clearly no one has told Isaac.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 12:20:54 GMT
I haven't read Quentin's full review and if he did call Courtney fat and Isaac has shot back well you are bald it is childish from both sides even if both statements are true. But Isaac to then drag other social groupings into this just alienates him from innocent parties.
Things like this with name calling and throwing out accusations can end up in court look at the Lawrence Fox case currently. If you have a gripe with someone and want to shoot back do it at them not other parties.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 13:43:23 GMT
I don’t think Isaac is right, but I do think they were rightly riled by Quentin’s continued intolerance and cruelty. Doesn’t excuse it, but I’m not going to sit here and say Isaac is the only one in the wrong.
On another note, am disappointed by how many members of this board continue to use he/him pronouns to talk about Isaac rather than they/them.
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Post by cezbear on May 31, 2022 13:45:12 GMT
I don’t think Isaac is right, but I do think they were rightly riled by Quentin’s continued intolerance and cruelty. Doesn’t excuse it, but I’m not going to sit here and say Isaac is the only one in the wrong. On another note, am disappointed by how many members of this board continue to use he/him pronouns to talk about Isaac rather than they/them. Isaac literally has they/she/he pronouns listed on social media? |
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Post by stagebyte on May 31, 2022 13:47:47 GMT
I don’t think Isaac is right, but I do think they were rightly riled by Quentin’s continued intolerance and cruelty. Doesn’t excuse it, but I’m not going to sit here and say Isaac is the only one in the wrong. On another note, am disappointed by how many members of this board continue to use he/him pronouns to talk about Isaac rather than they/them. Erm... I suggest you look at their/his profile They /he/she instagram.com/isaac.hesketh?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=Think you’ll find us old white straight (maybe balding and fat) folks have their pronouns correct thanks 😊 |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 14:47:15 GMT
Isaac has They/He/She as his pronouns on his twitter so I'd assume that any of them would be okay to use. If someone wants to use they or she instead of him then feel free to do so. It appears that Isaac has looked to cover most bases as far as pronouns are concerned. If Isaac was misgenedered I'm sure something would be said.
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Post by anthony on May 31, 2022 20:08:09 GMT
Interval. Jesus. This is dire.
Elle, Callahan and Emmett are all good. The rest? Shocking, in some places.
Will post my full feelings when I’m home (and after act 2) but I really hope some of these changes aren’t indicative of future productions… (especially Callahan’s! They make no sense given the character is MEANT to be a creep?!?!?)
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Post by intoanewlife on May 31, 2022 20:21:08 GMT
This thread sounds far more entertaining than the show itself is...
Sounds like a major misstep for Miss Moss, though most of the comments that pop up on the million Facebook ads for it I get a day seem to be far more positive than those here.
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Post by spathzthecat on May 31, 2022 20:22:18 GMT
I do think basically calling them ‘fatties’ is not warranted criticism. Sure criticise bad singing or acting- but derogatory comments about appearance are a low blow. I absolutely agree. Isaac turning this into a campaign against everyone white, older and straight turns it from a retaliatory defensive act against one bigoted, predictable journalist into something else entirely. You must recognise how completely inappropriate Isaac's comments are, with no ifs buts or maybes. You must also accept that prejudice of any kind should be dealt with harshly. I really don't see how anyone can possibly defend Isaac's actions. I remember reading a review of the London run of Chicago at the Adelphi- the reviewer call one lady member of the cast as 'obviously fat' |
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Post by inthenose on May 31, 2022 20:34:28 GMT
I absolutely agree. Isaac turning this into a campaign against everyone white, older and straight turns it from a retaliatory defensive act against one bigoted, predictable journalist into something else entirely. You must recognise how completely inappropriate Isaac's comments are, with no ifs buts or maybes. You must also accept that prejudice of any kind should be dealt with harshly. I really don't see how anyone can possibly defend Isaac's actions. I remember reading a review of the London run of Chicago at the Adelphi- the reviewer call one lady member of the cast as 'obviously fat' I can guess which one too. Doesn't need saying though. |
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