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Post by knowledge on Oct 26, 2021 18:04:59 GMT
Been thinking. Ask away. No one knows everything but some of us clearly know a lot. Who makes the most money? Who loses the most? Who is out for glory. How much do investors make. How much do producers earn. Ask away.
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Post by jamie2c on Nov 2, 2021 21:35:04 GMT
What percentage of a shows takings goes to the cast and crew ? Is there a common system where the cast get bonuses when a show has a full house ?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 3, 2021 9:46:05 GMT
It’s extremely rare for cast and crew to earn anything beyond their negotiated weekly salary. Creative teams often get a fixed weekly fee against a % of either box office or weekly net profits. Bonus’s to cast and crew for sold out or high capacity box office also incredibly rare, although some producers offer Christmas bonus (normally a few hundred pounds each-same amount to all) and some of the wiser producers also give a small bonus when a show recoups its capital investment. There is no common system to reward cast and crew when a show has a full house. It’s pretty unheard of. It’s normal for creative teams-especially authors and director to earn very well if a show runs a while even if a show doesn’t recoup its capital.
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Post by duncan on Nov 3, 2021 9:53:32 GMT
What is the average markup on a tub of ice-cream?
Can selling a lot of merchandise (and indeed ice-cream/pringles/booze) keep a low selling show open? For example if you have two shows running in the same theatre (at different times) that have the same underperforming box office income. Lets say The Full Monty (musical) is one and you know you are going to flog a tonne of booze to the audience would that influence the decision to keep the show open or closed against say closing Into the Woods which has an audience that doesn't buy booze.
I've always wondered if certain shows get a longer life than attendance would suggest owing to them being able to sell a lot more peripherals.
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Post by Jon on Nov 3, 2021 9:59:37 GMT
Do stop clauses exist for West End shows?
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 3, 2021 13:13:47 GMT
How many stomachs does a cow have?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 3, 2021 16:31:40 GMT
Stop clauses exist for almost all west end shows and are determined by the contract between producer and theatre owner. If a show falls below a certain box office amount for more than 2-4 consecutive weeks then either party can give the other notice-normally 2-4 weeks but in some very rare cases 4-6 months. Of course it can also be agreed between those two parties to defer that action, if it suits them. In some rare cases they get argued out by the producer at contract stage and there are a couple of theatres that don't have stop clauses-either because a show transferred from one venue to another or because the producer and owner are entirely the same entity.
Many shows stay open because a deal is reached between the producer and the theatre owner so the venue owner (basically) waives all rent and recharge of staff costs as it is deemed to be less bad to have a show paying no direct rent but the theatre still earns on ticketing and bar sales, F&B etc than to close a show and have no income at all. Merchandise-except for the obvious 3 or 4 shows really doesn’t make too much money for the venue. Sales and margin are just not there in enough scale. But ticketing and bar sales can often amount to more than the rent and recharge income on a show. Avoiding dark weeks is the number one aim of every theatre owner.
Ice cream mark up by venues is around 350% on wholesale price. Buy at 80p sell at £3. Ish. Depends on the venue. ATG buy at a much better rate than (say) Delfont or Nimax.
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 3, 2021 18:35:38 GMT
How much does a West End show typically gross?
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Post by Jon on Nov 3, 2021 19:45:07 GMT
Stop clauses exist for almost all west end shows and are determined by the contract between producer and theatre owner. If a show falls below a certain box office amount for more than 2-4 consecutive weeks then either party can give the other notice-normally 2-4 weeks but in some very rare cases 4-6 months. Of course it can also be agreed between those two parties to defer that action, if it suits them. In some rare cases they get argued out by the producer at contract stage and there are a couple of theatres that don't have stop clauses-either because a show transferred from one venue to another or because the producer and owner are entirely the same entity. Many shows stay open because a deal is reached between the producer and the theatre owner so the venue owner (basically) waives all rent and recharge of staff costs as it is deemed to be less bad to have a show paying no direct rent but the theatre still earns on ticketing and bar sales, F&B etc than to close a show and have no income at all. Merchandise-except for the obvious 3 or 4 shows really doesn’t make too much money for the venue. Sales and margin are just not there in enough scale. But ticketing and bar sales can often amount to more than the rent and recharge income on a show. Avoiding dark weeks is the number one aim of every theatre owner. I assume if a theatre owner wants a theatre for a particular show but the current tenant is still doing great business, they can offer a theatre that's in their portfolio available. Mamma Mia! for example has moved twice to make way for other shows for example. I think someone on here mentioned Blood Brothers lasted so long at the Phoenix because they were on a very old contract and so they were able to pay practically nothing to the theatre owner in this case ATG.
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Post by knowledge on Nov 4, 2021 7:00:38 GMT
There is no such thing as a typical weekly gross for a west end show. That’s like asking is there a typical weekly sales taking for each shop on Oxford Street. The Lion King grosses £1m a week and Woman In Black £50,000. Women in Black still makes £8,000 a week profit. So its all relative.
A theatre owner can only ‘move’ a show if the show agrees or if the contract stipulates reasons why either party might have cause to leave.
Blood Brothers moved from the Albery to the Phoenix before ATG owned either. It did absolutely pay rent every week at the Phoenix but a smaller % than is usual. As a ‘thank you’ for moving when it didn’t want to. Many theatre contracts have the right to give a show 6 months notice to leave for no reason. This is something that rarely ever gets triggered but it did when ATG wanted BB to leave as they could make much more money with newer shows on more standard % and £ rent deals.
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Post by TallPaul on Nov 4, 2021 9:16:47 GMT
With reference to the above, what is the deal with Nimax, Mischief and Jamie's 'pause'?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 4, 2021 11:54:22 GMT
Jamie’s sales started to slow and they didn’t fancy taking all the responsibility of the venue costs and the show costs into the winter with all the potential covid issues and they got Jerusalem as a firm booking and guaranteed to sell out for 2022 and Magic goes wrong as a nice winter ‘filler’ with less risk to Nimax. Jamie may come back at a later date.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 4, 2021 13:41:25 GMT
What are you hearing about Next to Normal? I had some info leaked to me, but it's all gone quiet again as it so often does.
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Post by knowledge on Nov 4, 2021 18:49:03 GMT
Not much. No one commercially wants it. A few subsidised theatres have enquired and a few independent directors have also. The original US producer kept suggesting he would do it. Which he never did. Almeida and Donmar both dabbled as of course did Katy L and others. But its never going to make money in UK so no one has pushed hard enough-shame
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Post by Jon on Nov 4, 2021 22:59:11 GMT
How do producers and to an extent theatre owners decide what theatre is the right one for a show? I've assume that there is a lot of schmoozing and tours of theatres in order for a theatre owner to secure a hot show from Broadway or elsewhere and for a producer that they have more than one option in case the theatre they have in mind isn't available.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 4, 2021 23:40:13 GMT
Not much. No one commercially wants it. A few subsidised theatres have enquired and a few independent directors have also. The original US producer kept suggesting he would do it. Which he never did. Almeida and Donmar both dabbled as of course did Katy L and others. But its never going to make money in UK so no one has pushed hard enough-shame Not heard about a WYP thing with NF?
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Post by daniel on Nov 5, 2021 1:14:11 GMT
How do producers and to an extent theatre owners decide what theatre is the right one for a show? I've assume that there is a lot of schmoozing and tours of theatres in order for a theatre owner to secure a hot show from Broadway or elsewhere and for a producer that they have more than one option in case the theatre they have in mind isn't available. Ultimately yes lots of schmoozing. And negotiating a deal! Sometimes a producer will have their eye on a particular house, eg. Cursed Child to the Palace. Some shows don't really care where they go and will opt for the best financial deal for them. Sometimes theatre owners who are also producers can put money into a show to have more of an input, eg Cameron Mackintosh putting money into Hamilton which helped steer it to his venue. But this doesn't always end up being the case. ATG Productions are producers on Dear Evan Hansen yet that went to a DMT venue.
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Post by knowledge on Nov 5, 2021 11:59:00 GMT
Daniel is right. However, every theatre in London wanted Hamilton and the producers wanted the VP. CM knew this as they are all mates and go back to RENT days…so CM (canny bugger) said only way you get the VP is if my team GM it and I take 25% of the capital…..the American’s like CM and his team especially and were focused only on the VP-where it sits beyond perfectly of course. So CM got what he wanted and the Producers didn’t mind too much as they could afford to share a little their enormous hit with CM as his share was limited to UK only where the show is never going to be as $$$ as it is in USA. A win-win.
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Post by Jon on Nov 5, 2021 12:16:39 GMT
Daniel is right. However, every theatre in London wanted Hamilton and the producers wanted the VP. CM knew this as they are all mates and go back to RENT days…so CM (canny bugger) said only way you get the VP is if my team GM it and I take 25% of the capital…..the American’s like CM and his team especially and were focused only on the VP-where it sits beyond perfectly of course. So CM got what he wanted and the Producers didn’t mind too much as they could afford to share a little their enormous hit with CM as his share was limited to UK only where the show is never going to be as $$$ as it is in USA. A win-win. I remember reading that Cameron originally had Mary Poppins in mind for the VP after the refurb but then Hamilton became such a huge hit on Broadway that he changed tact. Cameron was also a UK producer on Kinky Boots but I assume that the American producers had their eye on the Adelphi and no other theatre. Les Miserables' move from the Palace to the Queens/Sondheim is one I've never heard the conclusive story but I think ALW agreed to give the lease of the Queens/Sondheim to Cameron a few years earlier than planned in exchange for moving Les Mis.
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Post by knowledge on Nov 5, 2021 23:41:28 GMT
Sorry. CM was never a ‘producer’ of KB. ALW has never owned the Queens/Sondheim
Happy to answer questions
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Post by Phantom of London on Nov 6, 2021 0:37:55 GMT
There is no such thing as a typical weekly gross for a west end show. That’s like asking is there a typical weekly sales taking for each shop on Oxford Street. The Lion King grosses £1m a week and Woman In Black £50,000. Women in Black still makes £8,000 a week profit. So its all relative. A theatre owner can only ‘move’ a show if the show agrees or if the contract stipulates reasons why either party might have cause to leave. Blood Brothers moved from the Albery to the Phoenix before ATG owned either. It did absolutely pay rent every week at the Phoenix but a smaller % than is usual. As a ‘thank you’ for moving when it didn’t want to. Many theatre contracts have the right to give a show 6 months notice to leave for no reason. This is something that rarely ever gets triggered but it did when ATG wanted BB to leave as they could make much more money with newer shows on more standard % and £ rent deals. Thanks for that. I guess The Lion King would gross £1m would this be in the peak school holidays? £50k a week for a West End show as you said Woman in Black would be enough to close a off Broadway show I would think? How much would such as Phantom/Les Mis gross a week? I would hazard a guess about £300k to £400k?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 6, 2021 6:29:47 GMT
TLK does £1m a week most of the time. Very rarely goes below £900k. Big weeks can do £1.3m. An Off Broadway show would need at least $300k a week gross just to cover costs. Theatre, union rates, advertising, fees etc. At least. A 90 seat off Broadway is different to a 499 seat off Broadway of course. Again, no real ‘normal’. But assume $300k as a fair minimum average in the 6 or 7 ‘main’ recognised Off Broadway. Just to stay open. Phantom/LM you are very close. POTO would gross £325-400k. Quite variable based on good weeks and ‘bad’ weeks. LM 5-15% more per week during past 10 years. LM less variable. POTO used to do better per seat average ticket price. But in past 12 years LM has done that little bit more. Remember Gross does not mean income and certainly doesn’t mean profit. There is 20% VAT (thankfully not at the moment), and then at least 6-10% ticketing costs then royalties etc before you start paying the actual weekly ‘costs’.
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Post by Mark on Nov 6, 2021 8:08:44 GMT
An Off Broadway show would need at least $300k a week gross just to cover costs. Theatre, union rates, advertising, fees etc. At least. A 90 seat off Broadway is different to a 499 seat off Broadway of course. Again, no real ‘normal’. But assume $300k as a fair minimum average in the 6 or 7 ‘main’ recognised Off Broadway. Just to stay open. I think you're vastly over-estimating the 300k as being an average for off-broadway running costs. Little shop wouldn't even come close to that figure even if it sold every seat at full price. For comparisons, the off-broadway Sweeney a few years back cost $70k a week to run.
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Post by knowledge on Nov 6, 2021 8:30:59 GMT
I guess i am asking for trouble really. But there are many different types of ‘off Broadway’ of course. The main recognised ‘off Broadway’ houses have between 199 and 499 seats. However, technically off Broadway is 99-499 seats. So that’s a huge range. I should of perhaps been specific about what type of off Broadway I meant. Where commercial shows can actually (sometimes) make a profit. Little Shop has a gross capacity at its current theatre of $426k per week. A huge number of their seats are priced at $175+ That’s not to say it’s playing to that number every week, but with JJ in the cast it has been doing very very well and may even recoup. The little space that ST played in is by most people considered not a main space. Only 135 ‘seats’ for ST.and the actors were not on level 3 contracts-the typical off Broadway rates. I guess…rightly or wrongly, I was referring to the main off Broadway houses that take shows like AQ and Jersey Boys, Wrong etc. as well
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Post by jamie2c on Nov 6, 2021 15:04:32 GMT
Thanks for answering. I am slightly shocked that performers are not paid more when in a financially successful show. As it is partly their endeavour that makes the show successful.
What percentage of the ticket sales goes to the theatre and producers respectively ?
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