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Post by knowledge on Nov 6, 2021 16:23:39 GMT
Hello. interesting point of view and question. I am not sure what businesses share a % of income or profit with the staff employed and paid to do their job within a tight-frankly very tight brief….
Writers, composers, lyricists, directors, producers do well if their creative work hits with the public etc…the actors, 99% of the time get paid and don’t benefit or lose if it doesn’t work but don’t also if a show does ok, but never recoups but still pays its salaries.
The ? Around who gets what between producer and theatre, should really be who gets what between investor, creatives, producer and theatre owner. It’s complicated as the % changes per show, per theatre owner and then shifts significantly in terms of % on the box office. But basically. I am afraid. Investment in theatre-across all shows each year loses. Producers earn a decent living by charging fees but only make big money if the show properly hits. 3 or 4 a year in London. 1 or 2 in NYC. Creatives make good money. But only the top 2-3%. Theatres never ever lose money. It’s almost impossible. Too many shows want to come into the venues and there are too many great ways the theatres make money even if the shows are just breaking even….have a think about anyone who ever sold their theatre for less than they paid for it….might not be like that forever…the venues are towards the very top of the values now..but there isn’t a producer in the world that wouldn’t rather be a theatre owner..hence how the market has shifted in past 20 years..
Been better to be a physical landlord than a tenant in every business or sector in the in person world for 3 decades. Might change now. Not sure.
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Post by Jon on Nov 6, 2021 18:30:55 GMT
I’ve always wanted to know if ‘never put your own money in the show’ as made famous by Max Bialystock actually true
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Post by knowledge on Nov 6, 2021 19:39:05 GMT
I cant think of a single producer in the past 20 years who HASNT put some of his/her money into their show. Why a would anyone invest if the principle isnt prepared to..there are very few exceptions. For minimal amounts.
Those days are gone. Correctly.
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Post by jamie2c on Nov 6, 2021 21:25:51 GMT
Thanks for the reply. The thread is ask any question. I feel the answer to how much the theatre takes was skirted around. Does the theatre get 10% of the shows sales or 50% ? Do theatres charge a fixed rent and how much would that be for a West End theatre ? Please tell, oh wise one ?
A member of this board was once considering investing their own money into a show. I take it you would advise against putting ones own hard-earned tax-payed cash into a new show.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 6, 2021 22:48:25 GMT
What happened with Lord of the Rings? Didn't Kevin Wallace nearly bankrupt himself putting his own cash in?
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Post by Jon on Nov 7, 2021 0:01:40 GMT
I cant think of a single producer in the past 20 years who HASNT put some of his/her money into their show. Why a would anyone invest if the principle isnt prepared to..there are very few exceptions. For minimal amounts. Those days are gone. Correctly. I remember Cameron saying that he invested in Mary Poppins but that was because Disney don't have outside investors but that show probably was a going to be a money spinner so not exactly a risk. I'd be curious to know about new developments which have theatres being built like the upcoming Olympia Theatre or past new builds like The Bridge, do they field out interest to companies like Trafalgar, London Theatre Company or sell it the highest bidder? |
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Post by knowledge on Nov 7, 2021 7:15:04 GMT
West End theatres charge a fixed weekly rent based on their size and basic supply/demand. So, currently there are far more shows wanting theatres than venues available to host them. So its a theatre owners market and has been for 20+ years. A small venue like Duchess, Ambassadors or Criterion would charge somewhere between £15 and £20k a week PLUS a % each week the show plays to more than x. X normally based on the shows weekly running costs plus a ££ margin to help the show recoup. But, like any commercial transaction involving landlord/tenant, that ‘normal’ deal can often change depending upon the time of year/desperation of the venue (not often), desperation of a producer (frequent). Dominion/Drury Lane/Lyceum etc would charge a weekly rent more like £60k. On top of this the venue recharges all of its staff costs/utilities/rates/service charges etc. Plus then the venue makes a % as a core ticketing provider and of course takes all the bar takings. If a venue has a gap between bookings, they might take a ‘filler’ for (say) 2-6 weeks (normally a comedian or a tour or a transfer from another venue) for a short season and do a basic 75/25% split-of box office - in favour of the show.
Broadway works a little differently as it normally takes a straight % of the box office plus recharge costs…’normal’ rent in NYC is around 10%. But depends on the venue and the show etc.
Putting money into commercial theatre can be very lucrative. I have produced and invested for 40 years. Made on most. Just. But you really need a few hits and judgement and luck to make it much better than for instance a stock tracker. If you get lucky the returns can be immense. It can also be quite fun and certainly interesting. Like any investment-dont put more in than you can afford to lose.
Each development is different. The Bridge happened because Nick Starr spent 2 years looking for a site and talking to developers. The builders needed something community and cultural to unlock planning for the residential premises. So canny Nick made it happen. Olympia was highest bidder. Not everyone bid but many did. The new Nimax venue went to Nica because the developer new and liked her personally. Then a deal was struck. Mostly it starts with reputation and relationships and then comes down to money.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 7, 2021 7:45:00 GMT
And The Lord of the Rings? The world tour, the German backers pulling out? Wallace mortgaging his house...?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 7, 2021 8:33:50 GMT
No idea. No one with genuine influence or power takes the project seriously. loads of producers refinance their assets from time to time. Like many entrepreneurs. KW is a nice chap.
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Post by Jon on Nov 7, 2021 13:30:35 GMT
Sonia Friedman is an interesting one because she sometimes picks projects that have no hope in hell of being profitable but are done because she thinks it deserves a further life like The Nether but she has a slate of shows in any given year so I guess it all works out.
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Post by sleepflower on Nov 7, 2021 13:54:36 GMT
What's the yearly salary of someone in the 'recent grad' age group if they get a role in one of the big shows? Just wondering how it would compare to grad salaries in my profession (notoriously low)...
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Post by knowledge on Nov 7, 2021 15:54:22 GMT
Recent grad. £350 per week.
SF gets paid a salary don’t forget.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 7, 2021 18:34:10 GMT
Have you ever missed out on a project and really regretted it?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 7, 2021 19:05:57 GMT
Quite often…
Bodyguard
Art
Play that goes wrong wrong
Stones in his pockets
Dear Evan H
BoMormon
Six
To varying degrees I had the chance to produce or co-produce or very significantly invest
And I didn’t…..
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Post by inthenose on Nov 7, 2021 19:16:00 GMT
Ever had to sack cast? No specific names obviously
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Post by knowledge on Nov 7, 2021 21:13:56 GMT
No. Replace from one tour contract to another, yes. Into west end. Yes. Unlike almost every other industry it’s pretty hard, even in first 6 months of a contract-to replace someone you believe is not delivering.
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Post by Jon on Nov 7, 2021 21:40:03 GMT
I imagine anyone who invested in Cats probably thought they'd lose their money but ended up making hand over fist. Likewise with something like War Horse which ended up being a big moneyspinner for the National.
Speaking of the National, I notice they don't solely self produce their transfers anymore. Is that due to the failure of Great Britain or just deciding to reduce the risk.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 8, 2021 0:32:10 GMT
What about messing up casting and realising too late? Bad attitudes?
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Post by theglenbucklaird on Nov 8, 2021 8:56:18 GMT
Are you Andrew Lloyd Webber?
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Post by knowledge on Nov 8, 2021 14:03:18 GMT
I have never personally had to sack cast. Directors, choreographers, designers etc…yes, but thats less of a firing..more of a moving on with expensive penalties - sacking cast members without serious cause-It’s a pretty impossible thing to do. Paid actors full length of contract in order to leave…yes…but firing-no. None of shows I have directly been responsible for have had ‘messed up casting’….very frequently i or we got our second or third or fourth choice-but thats pretty standard. The NT always shared/off set risk to others-War Horse, Curious, One Man etc all had pretty big investors-might be considered co-producers but the NT always called the shots…not much has changed since then…just investors billed as producers, or producers agreeing to take no billing. Same same.
No-not ALW. I don’t have a holiday home in Mallorca.
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Post by TallPaul on Nov 8, 2021 14:15:55 GMT
David Pugh has thanked the 124 investors in Pride & Prejudice* (*sort of). Is this a large number, small or about average for this type of production? Devoting just one hour to each would take over five days solid!
(If you regret not being involved in Art, you can't be him either. 🙂)
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Post by knowledge on Nov 8, 2021 14:57:55 GMT
David has more individual investors than anyone I know of. A LOT more. Most productions are led by one person/company who then brings in 2 or 3 partners who each take 10-25% each-reducing the ‘lead’ producers obligations and responsibilities. Then the lead producer (normally!) has 20 or so investors. Some are willing to take a big slice but want better terms and a little bit of billing. It’s easy to work out by looking at the names on the posters. The only downside with this is that it takes a huge amount of time to collaborate (manage), producing partners who all have significant obligations and risk each and of course OPINIONS….much better to have 70-120 people all putting 0.5-1.5% in each…one letter/email a week and a few zooms and conference calls and a first night party…no one telling you about the problem with the beginning of act two….now…the other issue is, what if the beginning of act 2 is a nightmare and the producer doesn’t need or want to listen or agree…..producing is very hard. So are partner and investor relations. All shows are different of course and all producers and producing partnerships are different too. I wasn’t asked to be involved in ART, so its not a regret. I thought ART was wonderful. IS wonderful and was impeccably produced. One of the finest examples of commercial producing in the past 30 years.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 8, 2021 15:42:34 GMT
I have a some good working experience in West End and tour, a season of rep and couple of professional pantos - as a stage manager. ASM/DSM/CSM route. I always struggled more with the technical side though. I have shadowed and worked with a talent agent which wasn't for me - is there a route into producing without moving up to production management? This is all stuff my expensive stage/production management degree didn't set me up for
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Post by knowledge on Nov 8, 2021 16:36:17 GMT
Great question. The biggest issue in theatre and the arts today in the UK is that there are far too many people looking and being trained and encouraged to go for far too few jobs and roles. In every part-on and off stage.
I think, the best way in is to make that transition is with a producing theatre in a junior to mid admin role…easier at a regional venue than London, and/or write to every every commercial producer etc and offer. Tragically there are thousands of rich/well off middle class (mostly white) 20 and even 30 somethings who can offer to work for very low rates. Most are indeed very smart and very hard working too. Commercial producers find those people hard to turn down.
Would need to know more about you to offer any better advice. I do all I can to discourage our 2 from getting anywhere near the arts-assuming they ever want to own a house one day…its just too hard. And is harder now than it was 15 or even 10 years ago. Living in London and trying now, without a leg up from family, and without financial privilege to spend 10-15 years scraping a living to just be in with a chance of then getting anywhere? Try and be a professional cricketer. Odds are better.
However, if you already have experience and have worked in roles that you have…keep going…keep plugging away..being a producer is not and should never be the only end goal. It’s not much cop most of the time nowadays.
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Post by inthenose on Nov 8, 2021 17:56:02 GMT
Thank you for your considered words and advice. I'll keep on it  Just to add to your point, I have a side hustle which is quickly approaching new career territory. I try and not depend on theatre to keep the lights on, if I hadn't had this side business when Covid hit I wouldn't have made rent. My family and I am not wealthy. Loving the arts is one thing but needing to earn is another. At this stage in my life/career I simply can't afford to take an internship... |
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