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Post by fiyero on May 23, 2021 13:57:47 GMT
Maybe they're just recording the orchestra for promotional purposes, for backing in adverts and the like (though I don't know why they wouldn't just use the existing Broadway one)? Cast recordings are so rare here nowadays I doubt they'd record a show when there's an existing recording for the same production on Broadway with the same lead. Maybe it was all booked when they didn’t have the same lead? |
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on May 23, 2021 14:36:12 GMT
Maybe they're just recording the orchestra for promotional purposes, for backing in adverts and the like (though I don't know why they wouldn't just use the existing Broadway one)? Cast recordings are so rare here nowadays I doubt they'd record a show when there's an existing recording for the same production on Broadway with the same lead. Maybe it was all booked when they didn’t have the same lead? True, I didn't think of that, that's definitely a possibility! I just think it's weird that this of all productions would be getting a cast recording when so few here do now, especially revivals. |
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Post by scarpia on May 23, 2021 16:33:55 GMT
Would they really do a cast recording for a show that's only having a limited run & already has multiple cast recordings available? I mean, some new shows nowadays don't even get a cast recording, or are only recorded live rather than a studio recording, because of the cost. You're right; it does seem unlikely they'd make a cast recording just for this. But then there are all sorts of weird decisions made in the world of theatre...a DVD gets made of By Jeeves, but not a single commercial video release of the original Les Mis! No idea... |
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Post by ceebee on May 23, 2021 16:46:29 GMT
I reckon this production will be filmed at some point and made available online or via the Beeb.
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Post by ceebee on Jun 7, 2021 18:50:06 GMT
Anybody else had their original seat randomly replaced with a new seat? Just got email from Today Tix saying my nice little BB1 seat is now A11. I chose the single seat specifically so am a bit peed off by the change. Just me or has anybody else had a swap?
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Post by alece10 on Jun 7, 2021 19:43:34 GMT
Anybody else had their original seat randomly replaced with a new seat? Just got email from Today Tix saying my nice little BB1 seat is now A11. I chose the single seat specifically so am a bit peed off by the change. Just me or has anybody else had a swap? I've not had anything but they better not move me as I have booked an aisle seat for specific reason. |
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Post by LaLuPone on Jun 7, 2021 20:40:01 GMT
Has everyone seen the video of Sutton that’s recently resurfaced on twitter where she’s performing And I Am Telling You in a concert and doing a pretty offensive Jennifer Holliday “impression”, and effectively making fun of black voices? I’m definitely not a fan of “cancel culture” and the way people seem not to be allowed to make a single mistake for fear of being mauled by the social media mobs but what Sutton’s done was tone-deaf at best, and I think it’s completely understandable that many black actors in the industry are finding it offensive. It was supposedly about 10 years ago when this was filmed but as others have said online, I still don’t really see how she would have viewed this type of micro-aggression as acceptable even in 2010. Hopefully she can try to make amends for this because it seems many of the theatre people who were initially very excited to see her West End debut are now wishing she wasn’t coming at all!
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Post by sph on Jun 7, 2021 21:02:30 GMT
Yes, I have seen it. Was she intentionally making fun of black voices? Or just doing an impression of a particular actress, like someone might do a send-up of Barbra Streisand for example. I'm genuinely curious as the video only shows an excerpt of the song and doesn't give any context.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 7, 2021 21:07:30 GMT
Has everyone seen the video of Sutton that’s recently resurfaced on twitter where she’s performing And I Am Telling You in a concert and doing a pretty offensive Jennifer Holliday “impression”, and effectively making fun of black voices? I’m definitely not a fan of “cancel culture” and the way people seem not to be allowed to make a single mistake for fear of being mauled by the social media mobs but what Sutton’s done was tone-deaf at best, and I think it’s completely understandable that many black actors in the industry are finding it offensive. It was supposedly about 10 years ago when this was filmed but as others have said online, I still don’t really see how she would have viewed this type of micro-aggression as acceptable even in 2010. Hopefully she can try to make amends for this because it seems many of the theatre people who were initially very excited to see her West End debut are now wishing she wasn’t coming at all! It's terrible regardless and hopefully she'll acknowledge and apologise for it and it's totally understandable if people no longer want to support her financially, but I think it's easy to forget that although 2010 doesn't feel that long ago, some really terrible and racist stuff was being made in 2010 still (like Come Fly With Me is full of brown, black and yellow face and that only finished airing in 2011 and I'm sure there's plenty more examples that I can't think of off the top of my head) and although no doubt not seen as acceptable at the time among those in marginalised communities, was obviously still "acceptable" in the mainstream (though obviously it never should have been and should not just be dismissed as simply of its time). So yeah although stuff like what she did was never right and should never have been done and people should have to own up and apologise for it, I think we forget just how prevalent casual racist jokes were even only a decade ago and how someone like Sutton Foster may very well be an overall well-meaning and not deliberately or maliciously racist person, especially after a decade of potential growth and education, but still have been ignorant enough to make those kinds of jokes back then because it wasn't really seen as unacceptable. |
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 7, 2021 22:04:18 GMT
Oh god. That video is bad. What a shame that she thought was even okay… and that it’s now resurfaced as she’s about to appear in London. Yikes.
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 7, 2021 22:13:13 GMT
It's clearly an impression and tribute to a very distinctive singer and song, there's no malicious racist intent behind that whatsoever. Jennifer Holliday would probably find it very flattering.
If Cynthia Erivo did a similar rendition of someone equally distinctive and white like Cher, no one in the world would think it was driven by racism.
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 7, 2021 22:37:00 GMT
For context, the song was included on her 2011 live album and has been widely available since then. I believe there was a hat of song suggestions for her to pick from and perform for the encore (she does Defying Gravity earlier in the show based on another selection). From the preceeding dialogue included in the album, she picks this song, sounds a bit daunted, and says 'Ok...OK..I'm gonna get my Effie on'.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 7, 2021 22:54:43 GMT
I have almost no doubt that she was in no way trying to be racist here, she just thought she was doing a harmless impersonation of a larger than life Broadway diva. But when you do an impersonation of a black woman and you play up their vocal inflections and mannerisms for laughs, that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 7, 2021 23:06:10 GMT
I’m quite sure she isn’t racist (as she is now being labelled all over social media). And you can tell she is specifically impersonating Jennifer Hollidays (iconic) vocal of that song. BUT I cannot as a white man say that it doesn’t come across as racist when many POC are incredibly offended by it.
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Post by FairyGodmother on Jun 8, 2021 0:38:09 GMT
I think it's at least in part to do with them being from the US — I've never seen this sort of outcry over anybody doing an impression of Shirley Bassey.
Whole different set of cultural baggage attached.
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 1:02:51 GMT
I think it's at least in part to do with them being from the US — I've never seen this sort of outcry over anybody doing an impression of Shirley Bassey. Whole different set of cultural baggage attached. A lot of the backlash currently happening is coming from the UK though... I don't know what to make of it really. I don't think Sutton Foster is racist, but I do believe that the torch-wielding villagers love to form a mob, no matter how innocent the intentions of those accused. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 1:23:00 GMT
So does that mean miming to it, is out too? Lots of drag queens just ran to take 'And I Am Telling You' from future set lists. that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads. Does it though? The whole apologising for something you said or did 10 years ago drives me crazy. Who hasn't said or done something 10 years ago, that you wouldn't say/do today?? It feels like people are looking for videos like these, specifically so they can name and shame others. Thank god I don't sing in public, because 'It's All Over' would be terrible in an English accent. Is this where I get cancelled?? |
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 8, 2021 8:19:53 GMT
So does that mean miming to it, is out too? Lots of drag queens just ran to take 'And I Am Telling You' from future set lists. that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads. Does it though? The whole apologising for something you said or did 10 years ago drives me crazy. Who hasn't said or done something 10 years ago, that you wouldn't say/do today?? It feels like people are looking for videos like these, specifically so they can name and shame others. Thank god I don't sing in public, because 'It's All Over' would be terrible in an English accent. Is this where I get cancelled?? I mean my mind went to "I know she probably doesnt mean it to but this feels like minstrelsy", and I've seen others draw the same comparison on twitter. And like I said I doubt she's some evil, truly racist and hateful person, and I'm sure there are plenty of people acting in bad faith on twitter in response to it (I've seen a couple people acting gleeful at the chance to finally have found an excuse to cancel her because those people have sad lives and get off from a feeling of superiority and that shouldn't be condoned), but for me to support her financially I would personally like to see an acknowledgement from her that she understands it was inappropriate and that she is sorry for it. Of course anyone's free to take no issue with what she's done or decide that 10 years is enough time elapsed that she shouldn't face adverse consequences even if you do think it was wrong. As for the difference between what she did and say a drag queen performing it, for me that would depend on how they perform it. Are they doing it to make fun of this black woman's mannerisms and quirks or are they just lip syncing to the song that she sang? Because if Sutton had just sang the song without these affectations for laughs I wouldn't have had a problem, it's just that doing it this way felt like punching down and mockery. |
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Post by princeton on Jun 8, 2021 8:49:06 GMT
As a white man it's not for me to deny that the extract is racist, and clearly the genuine responses shows that many believe it is.
However context is important - and there's no context in that very brief clip. As Robert said it's from her concert set of about 10 years ago when she did a section called Broadway's Best Belting (or something like that) and she asked audience members to pick out an iconic song from a selection in a bag, pretty much all songs form shows in which she would never be cast. The songs included Defying Gravity (a la Idina) and Don't Rain on My Parade (a la Barbra). Was she being deliberately anti-Semitic when she performed that latter I doubt it, did she have racist intentions with AAITY, I'd guess not - they were meant to be homage to the great songs and the great singers who had performed them - to demonstrate their vocal brilliance. I'm certainly the intention was not mock to the way in which black people sing, as has been claimed on twitter, it was to pay tribute to performers and songs she admired. Was it ill advised particularly with the benefit of hindsight - very possibly. Did she go too far with the vocal ticks etc - very probably. Does she regret it - who knows? Does the court of public opinion ever go beyond the sound bite.........?
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Post by David J on Jun 8, 2021 9:38:00 GMT
This is the way of cancel culture and victimisation that we've allowed to manifest over the years.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What started as the guilty people like Harvey Weinstein being rightfully prosecuted upon evidence, has led to a vocal minority of people on social media like Twitter hounding out people for things they said a decade ago.
It's all very well calling for us to fight against every -ism in the dictionary but its got to the point where people see nothing but bad around them and will scour every word people have posted on the internet to find a target to rut out. Demand they be banned from social media, be fired from their job, hound down their family members and so on.
And believe me I've watched many people talk about cases like this on YouTube. Even those that demand cancellation are getting cancelled. When you have no real targets left you attack your own comrades. Collectivism at its finest
I fear what's going to happen to Sutton now. By apologising she's now empowered the mob to go after her even more. Find other cases where she's done something 'awful'.
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Post by craig on Jun 8, 2021 10:22:42 GMT
My first reaction, as a cis white man, is always to listen to peoples objections in these kind of situations. It's important to listen and understand what people are offended by. I'm at a bit of a loss here.
Honestly, this just seems like an opportunistic Twitter lynch mob. The context makes sense. The idea that the song is a sacred cow that must never be parodied is nonsense. Clearly, Sutton was impersonating an iconic and much loved performance and it sets a dangerous precedent to say that white performers cannot pay tribute to or, indeed, make fun of, black performers.
There's so many important conversations to have about systemic racism and micro aggressions in our society. This isn't one of them.
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 10:48:19 GMT
People have always loved an opportunity to shoot down those who are successful. There's also the fact that being offended nowadays empowers people. Leading the mob makes people feel powerful. You can say you're offended and you know that a group of people will now give you 100 replies telling you how right you are and how wonderful you are and that's an addictive feeling.
Interesting that so many things that pop up like this nowadays come from a good 10 years ago at least...
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 8, 2021 11:18:32 GMT
It's true that we now live in more 'enlightened' times, and of course no celebrity should be allowed to be openly discriminatory, bigoted, prejudicial etc, but equally people are too quick to be offended at things that aren't setting out deliberately to offend.
It's the latest in a long line of recent arguments which don't really hold up. The Alexis Meade storyline in Ugly Betty, or Kathleen Turner playing Chandler's dad on Friends... while quite rightly these storylines would be in poor taste today in solidarity with the trans community, at the time, those shows weren't saying 'we hate trans people, look how funny it is to make fun of them'. Likewise, Christina Bianco does an AMAZING impression of Celine Dion, which Celine herself has said she thinks is brilliant... Christina isn't making fun and inciting hatred of all French-Canadian people when she does it.
Yes it's good that people are unwilling to put up with injustice when that's what's happening, but equally they need to stop forming lynch mobs and perceiving malice where none exists.
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Post by craig on Jun 8, 2021 11:21:40 GMT
It's true that we now live in more 'enlightened' times, and of course no celebrity should be allowed to be openly discriminatory, bigoted, prejudicial etc, but equally people are too quick to be offended at things that aren't setting out deliberately to offend. It's the latest in a long line of recent arguments which don't really hold up. The Alexis Meade storyline in Ugly Betty, or Kathleen Turner playing Chandler's dad on Friends... while quite rightly these storylines would be in poor taste today in solidarity with the trans community, at the time, those shows weren't saying 'we hate trans people, look how funny it is to make fun of them'. Likewise, Christina Bianco does an AMAZING impression of Celine Dion, which Celine herself has said she thinks is brilliant... Christina isn't making fun and inciting hatred of all French-Canadian people when she does it. Yes it's good that people are unwilling to put up with injustice when that's what's happening, but equally they need to stop forming lynch mobs and perceiving malice where none exists. Absolutely this. |
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Post by southstreet on Jun 8, 2021 11:27:24 GMT
It is also important to understand that sometimes things are offensive when no malice is intended. I don't agree with cancel culture for minor, ill-advised situations like this, but as someone who has been affected by microaggressions all my life, in the vast majority of cases I experienced I am fairly certain that there was no malice meant. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be called out and brought to the person's attention, so that they can learn and try to do better in the future.
So in this case I am all for calling her out on it but definitely don't think this warrants cancelling her. At least not just on the basis of this one performance.
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