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Post by robertb213 on Jun 7, 2021 22:13:13 GMT
It's clearly an impression and tribute to a very distinctive singer and song, there's no malicious racist intent behind that whatsoever. Jennifer Holliday would probably find it very flattering.
If Cynthia Erivo did a similar rendition of someone equally distinctive and white like Cher, no one in the world would think it was driven by racism.
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 7, 2021 22:37:00 GMT
For context, the song was included on her 2011 live album and has been widely available since then. I believe there was a hat of song suggestions for her to pick from and perform for the encore (she does Defying Gravity earlier in the show based on another selection). From the preceeding dialogue included in the album, she picks this song, sounds a bit daunted, and says 'Ok...OK..I'm gonna get my Effie on'.
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 7, 2021 22:54:43 GMT
I have almost no doubt that she was in no way trying to be racist here, she just thought she was doing a harmless impersonation of a larger than life Broadway diva. But when you do an impersonation of a black woman and you play up their vocal inflections and mannerisms for laughs, that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads.
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 7, 2021 23:06:10 GMT
I’m quite sure she isn’t racist (as she is now being labelled all over social media). And you can tell she is specifically impersonating Jennifer Hollidays (iconic) vocal of that song. BUT I cannot as a white man say that it doesn’t come across as racist when many POC are incredibly offended by it.
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Post by FairyGodmother on Jun 8, 2021 0:38:09 GMT
I think it's at least in part to do with them being from the US — I've never seen this sort of outcry over anybody doing an impression of Shirley Bassey.
Whole different set of cultural baggage attached.
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 1:02:51 GMT
I think it's at least in part to do with them being from the US — I've never seen this sort of outcry over anybody doing an impression of Shirley Bassey. Whole different set of cultural baggage attached. A lot of the backlash currently happening is coming from the UK though... I don't know what to make of it really. I don't think Sutton Foster is racist, but I do believe that the torch-wielding villagers love to form a mob, no matter how innocent the intentions of those accused.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 1:23:00 GMT
So does that mean miming to it, is out too? Lots of drag queens just ran to take 'And I Am Telling You' from future set lists. that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads. Does it though? The whole apologising for something you said or did 10 years ago drives me crazy. Who hasn't said or done something 10 years ago, that you wouldn't say/do today?? It feels like people are looking for videos like these, specifically so they can name and shame others. Thank god I don't sing in public, because 'It's All Over' would be terrible in an English accent. Is this where I get cancelled??
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Post by juicy_but_terribly_drab on Jun 8, 2021 8:19:53 GMT
So does that mean miming to it, is out too? Lots of drag queens just ran to take 'And I Am Telling You' from future set lists. that's gonna inevitably evoke comparisons to minstrelsy for a lot of people, which I should hope she certainly did not intend but nevertheless that's how it reads. Does it though? The whole apologising for something you said or did 10 years ago drives me crazy. Who hasn't said or done something 10 years ago, that you wouldn't say/do today?? It feels like people are looking for videos like these, specifically so they can name and shame others. Thank god I don't sing in public, because 'It's All Over' would be terrible in an English accent. Is this where I get cancelled?? I mean my mind went to "I know she probably doesnt mean it to but this feels like minstrelsy", and I've seen others draw the same comparison on twitter. And like I said I doubt she's some evil, truly racist and hateful person, and I'm sure there are plenty of people acting in bad faith on twitter in response to it (I've seen a couple people acting gleeful at the chance to finally have found an excuse to cancel her because those people have sad lives and get off from a feeling of superiority and that shouldn't be condoned), but for me to support her financially I would personally like to see an acknowledgement from her that she understands it was inappropriate and that she is sorry for it. Of course anyone's free to take no issue with what she's done or decide that 10 years is enough time elapsed that she shouldn't face adverse consequences even if you do think it was wrong. As for the difference between what she did and say a drag queen performing it, for me that would depend on how they perform it. Are they doing it to make fun of this black woman's mannerisms and quirks or are they just lip syncing to the song that she sang? Because if Sutton had just sang the song without these affectations for laughs I wouldn't have had a problem, it's just that doing it this way felt like punching down and mockery.
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Post by princeton on Jun 8, 2021 8:49:06 GMT
As a white man it's not for me to deny that the extract is racist, and clearly the genuine responses shows that many believe it is.
However context is important - and there's no context in that very brief clip. As Robert said it's from her concert set of about 10 years ago when she did a section called Broadway's Best Belting (or something like that) and she asked audience members to pick out an iconic song from a selection in a bag, pretty much all songs form shows in which she would never be cast. The songs included Defying Gravity (a la Idina) and Don't Rain on My Parade (a la Barbra). Was she being deliberately anti-Semitic when she performed that latter I doubt it, did she have racist intentions with AAITY, I'd guess not - they were meant to be homage to the great songs and the great singers who had performed them - to demonstrate their vocal brilliance. I'm certainly the intention was not mock to the way in which black people sing, as has been claimed on twitter, it was to pay tribute to performers and songs she admired. Was it ill advised particularly with the benefit of hindsight - very possibly. Did she go too far with the vocal ticks etc - very probably. Does she regret it - who knows? Does the court of public opinion ever go beyond the sound bite.........?
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Post by David J on Jun 8, 2021 9:38:00 GMT
This is the way of cancel culture and victimisation that we've allowed to manifest over the years.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. What started as the guilty people like Harvey Weinstein being rightfully prosecuted upon evidence, has led to a vocal minority of people on social media like Twitter hounding out people for things they said a decade ago.
It's all very well calling for us to fight against every -ism in the dictionary but its got to the point where people see nothing but bad around them and will scour every word people have posted on the internet to find a target to rut out. Demand they be banned from social media, be fired from their job, hound down their family members and so on.
And believe me I've watched many people talk about cases like this on YouTube. Even those that demand cancellation are getting cancelled. When you have no real targets left you attack your own comrades. Collectivism at its finest
I fear what's going to happen to Sutton now. By apologising she's now empowered the mob to go after her even more. Find other cases where she's done something 'awful'.
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Post by craig on Jun 8, 2021 10:22:42 GMT
My first reaction, as a cis white man, is always to listen to peoples objections in these kind of situations. It's important to listen and understand what people are offended by. I'm at a bit of a loss here.
Honestly, this just seems like an opportunistic Twitter lynch mob. The context makes sense. The idea that the song is a sacred cow that must never be parodied is nonsense. Clearly, Sutton was impersonating an iconic and much loved performance and it sets a dangerous precedent to say that white performers cannot pay tribute to or, indeed, make fun of, black performers.
There's so many important conversations to have about systemic racism and micro aggressions in our society. This isn't one of them.
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 10:48:19 GMT
People have always loved an opportunity to shoot down those who are successful. There's also the fact that being offended nowadays empowers people. Leading the mob makes people feel powerful. You can say you're offended and you know that a group of people will now give you 100 replies telling you how right you are and how wonderful you are and that's an addictive feeling.
Interesting that so many things that pop up like this nowadays come from a good 10 years ago at least...
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 8, 2021 11:18:32 GMT
It's true that we now live in more 'enlightened' times, and of course no celebrity should be allowed to be openly discriminatory, bigoted, prejudicial etc, but equally people are too quick to be offended at things that aren't setting out deliberately to offend.
It's the latest in a long line of recent arguments which don't really hold up. The Alexis Meade storyline in Ugly Betty, or Kathleen Turner playing Chandler's dad on Friends... while quite rightly these storylines would be in poor taste today in solidarity with the trans community, at the time, those shows weren't saying 'we hate trans people, look how funny it is to make fun of them'. Likewise, Christina Bianco does an AMAZING impression of Celine Dion, which Celine herself has said she thinks is brilliant... Christina isn't making fun and inciting hatred of all French-Canadian people when she does it.
Yes it's good that people are unwilling to put up with injustice when that's what's happening, but equally they need to stop forming lynch mobs and perceiving malice where none exists.
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Post by craig on Jun 8, 2021 11:21:40 GMT
It's true that we now live in more 'enlightened' times, and of course no celebrity should be allowed to be openly discriminatory, bigoted, prejudicial etc, but equally people are too quick to be offended at things that aren't setting out deliberately to offend. It's the latest in a long line of recent arguments which don't really hold up. The Alexis Meade storyline in Ugly Betty, or Kathleen Turner playing Chandler's dad on Friends... while quite rightly these storylines would be in poor taste today in solidarity with the trans community, at the time, those shows weren't saying 'we hate trans people, look how funny it is to make fun of them'. Likewise, Christina Bianco does an AMAZING impression of Celine Dion, which Celine herself has said she thinks is brilliant... Christina isn't making fun and inciting hatred of all French-Canadian people when she does it. Yes it's good that people are unwilling to put up with injustice when that's what's happening, but equally they need to stop forming lynch mobs and perceiving malice where none exists. Absolutely this.
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Post by southstreet on Jun 8, 2021 11:27:24 GMT
It is also important to understand that sometimes things are offensive when no malice is intended. I don't agree with cancel culture for minor, ill-advised situations like this, but as someone who has been affected by microaggressions all my life, in the vast majority of cases I experienced I am fairly certain that there was no malice meant. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be called out and brought to the person's attention, so that they can learn and try to do better in the future.
So in this case I am all for calling her out on it but definitely don't think this warrants cancelling her. At least not just on the basis of this one performance.
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Post by robertb213 on Jun 8, 2021 11:39:16 GMT
It is also important to understand that sometimes things are offensive when no malice is intended. I don't agree with cancel culture for minor, ill-advised situations like this, but as someone who has been affected by microaggressions all my life, in the vast majority of cases I experienced I am fairly certain that there was no malice meant. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be called out and brought to the person's attention, so that they can learn and try to do better in the future. So in this case I am all for calling her out on it but definitely don't think this warrants cancelling her. At least not just on the basis of this one performance. That's actually a really good point. Like when someone says 'that's so gay' as a negative, I often take a slight bit of offence initially, and then realise that they didn't mean it maliciously. Sometimes it's just about drawing attention to it so the person can learn from it, rather than trying to destroy them 😀
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Post by musicalmarge on Jun 8, 2021 12:00:00 GMT
Has everyone seen the video of Sutton that’s recently resurfaced on twitter where she’s performing And I Am Telling You in a concert and doing a pretty offensive Jennifer Holliday “impression”, and effectively making fun of black voices? I’m definitely not a fan of “cancel culture” and the way people seem not to be allowed to make a single mistake for fear of being mauled by the social media mobs but what Sutton’s done was tone-deaf at best, and I think it’s completely understandable that many black actors in the industry are finding it offensive. It was supposedly about 10 years ago when this was filmed but as others have said online, I still don’t really see how she would have viewed this type of micro-aggression as acceptable even in 2010. Hopefully she can try to make amends for this because it seems many of the theatre people who were initially very excited to see her West End debut are now wishing she wasn’t coming at all! This is why I just hate living in the UK in 2021. Woke cultural nonsense. Of COURSE she’s not being racist signing a famous Broadway belting song which had a signature theme and tone. Exactly the same way Somewhere Thats Green has a signature sound. For people to go back to social media messages and recordings from over a decade ago is also foolish - go back far enough and you can see homophobic AND racist comments from every leader on the planet. She was singing a song not in the KKK. I despair......
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Post by danb on Jun 8, 2021 12:18:42 GMT
Quite agree MM…And lots is made of re-educating people. What if people have re-educated themselves having recognised something unpleasant in their beliefs, and then they get called out on past transgressions? The current thing with cricket players, and trawling though their past tweets to find dirt is really no better than Scum paps going through peoples bins.
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Post by sparky5000 on Jun 8, 2021 12:18:52 GMT
I’m not black so I obviously can’t speak for the black community and am not trying to - of course seeing videos like Sutton’s are triggering, and I understand their hurt. But the issue I have is that most of the ~condemnation~ I’ve seen seems to have come from the young white British theatre twitter crowd who have just become this woke baying twitter mob over everything, and it’s exhausting to see. It’s almost like they need to be following the crowd and be seen to be on the ~right~ side, and the way they do that is by demanding instant cancellation without any attempt to find context or listen to explanations etc. It’s like every day they need to tick their “been an ally” box and are always on the hunt for new victims, today’s being Sutton!
I’m not saying what Sutton did wasn’t a micro aggression in really bad taste, especially when looked at through today’s lens, but it’s obvious her intent was not malicious - there just doesn’t seem to be any grace these days!
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42ndBlvd
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Post by 42ndBlvd on Jun 8, 2021 12:29:19 GMT
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Post by poster J on Jun 8, 2021 13:06:19 GMT
There's so many important conversations to have about systemic racism and micro aggressions in our society. This isn't one of them. I don't think it's for white people to say this isn't a conversation that should be had. That in itself is potentially demeaning the feelings of those who have a right to feel offended by this. And that is the key for me - how to react to this should be driven by those to whom it relates, not anyone else. Those of us who can never understand that but can be allies need to take our cue from them, not become a baying mob on Twitter like so many have without asking what those who are actually affected by it want us to do.
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Post by alece10 on Jun 8, 2021 15:16:36 GMT
What would some of the People complaining make of Forbidden Broadway?
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Post by danb on Jun 8, 2021 15:59:35 GMT
Does this render impressionists and tribute artists cancelled then?
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 16:28:57 GMT
Does this render impressionists and tribute artists cancelled then? Not really. Deborah Stephenson for example often impersonates female comedians and presenters to great acclaim, but on the other hand I'm sure it wouldn't be well received if she did an impression of a disabled comedian like Rosie Jones.
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Post by poster J on Jun 8, 2021 16:56:12 GMT
Does this render impressionists and tribute artists cancelled then? The term "cancelled" should be cancelled... It should render any impressionist or tribute act that is inappropriate unacceptable - e.g. a white woman as a Tina Turner impersonator, for example. That is no different to the reason we don't have minstrel shows any more...
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Post by danb on Jun 8, 2021 18:41:14 GMT
But you would hope that nobody would do that and that each individual would assess each impression with sensitivity. Unfortunately people will leap on any remotely controversial point and turn it into a stick to beat people with. Sometimes rightly so, sometimes wholly unnecessary. But I don’t think this is it…
…and I totally agree about ‘cancelled’. It is a horrible concept.
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Post by sph on Jun 8, 2021 20:46:50 GMT
A lot of people hating her on twitter at the moment seem to be almost gleeful in their hatred, and many are London-based (unknown) actors. I sure hope they've all led perfect lives themselves because one day the mob might come for them...
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Post by mrbarnaby on Jun 8, 2021 21:01:51 GMT
I’m amazed how many actors are publicly damning her. It doesn’t seem very professional to tear other actors down.
Then again, the ones doing it are hardly at the top of the industry.
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Post by inthenose on Jun 8, 2021 22:02:36 GMT
Absolutely pathetic. I despair for what social media has done to people's persecution complexes, I really do. Twitter has caused so much harm to vulnerable people's mental health.
It used to be a healthy dose of schadenfreude was shared by all. Seeing that a killer or rapist was jailed in the news is something everyone can get behind.
But now we have bitter, entitled and frankly awful professional victims whose sole purpose in life is to trawl through social media and live their own lives, desperately trying to find things to be offended by.
This is the first generation of young people being raised by the internet, specifically taking their social cues from social media. It's only going to get worse.
I don't think Sutton Foster did anything wrong. She chose to apologise (probably in fear for her career, hoping this whole nightmare will go away), but I know I wouldn't. If I was ever in that situation and I knew I had no ill intentions, I'd certainly not apologise to the circling piranhas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 22:17:13 GMT
Jennifer Holiday has a very unique style of singing. I saw her live a few years back, and her vocal stylings on AIATY were comical, like she was almost parodying herself. That's her calling card, what she is known for.
Now its being turned into a race issue, when really, it has nothing to do with her being black.It not how all black people sing, its not a stereotype.
Say for example, that Rene Elise Goldsbury performed a song from Mary Poppins, the same way Julie Andrews does it. Would people be claiming she's mocking a white woman? Probably not, because reverse racism isnt really a thing, but its the exact same thing. Its not about the race, its about the original singer.
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